[jayde]

1. Do you think the Governor really cared about Meghan? When the lady brought Meghan's dead body to him he just shot her.

No. I think when he was pretending/trying to be anything but the Governor, that he probably did care about her but not enough to prioritize her over his sick, sadistic, vengeful ways.

2. Where do you think Judith is?

Dead. But I do think it can be interpreted as being left open ended in case they decide to try out having a baby on the road.

3. Where do you think Carl and Rick are going and why did they leave behind the people who were still alive?

From the preview for the next half of the season, it looks like they'll follow the comic quite a bit. Seems like they'll just hold up in an empty house for a while. They didn't have a choice but to leave, it's not like they had time to go running around walkers to see who was still there.


4. Wasn't Daryl so bada$$ when he put the grenade in the tank?
- Yes.

5. What do you think about the little kids using the guns? - They finally made themselves useful.

6. Now that Rick is barely alive and him and Carl ran off, will Rick be able to survive with just Carl helping him?

- I don't think they're killing Rick off anytime soon, so yes.

[Shambo]

By "easiest" I meant, "Big enough so we can boast about killing main characters all the time, but not so big that we spark a fan outrage."

Ah I see what you mean. You're right, he was popular enough to generate a reaction but not too popular to turn viewers away from the show once he died.

[JesusMonroe]

Very true. While TWD is far from a flawless show, even the best episodes (and I would rank this one in the top five) will have their critics.

Maybe the reason people always find something to complain about is because there's always something to complain about? That's true for every show

[SteadyEddie]

Lilly shooting him in the head wasn't enough proof for you that the Gov is a goner?

Yeah, what more does one need?


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[I R Biter]

It would be interesting for Tyreese and the kids to run across Carol.....Rick didn't get around to telling him it was her.....

[jayde]

You have to think a little bit about Judith, in my opinion she is most definently okay. The girls were BOTH carrying the baby carriage to bring Judith out. They HAD to set her down to get guns, and then they saved Tyreese, but there were also 2 other children with them. The plan was for them all to go south, Tyreese knew this, that's why he said "We have to go this way". But they immediately darted in a different direction, to go retrieve Judith/Other kids. So they are mostly likely okay, and all together with Tyreese. The blood was always there, it wasn't fresh at all, come on, they're using an old baby carriage in the apocalypse. Even if a walker were to eat Judith, you would have seen WAY more evidence of the incident when Rick/Carl found the carriage. A walker wouldn't be like "Heh I'm going to pick this baby up and take it to a new area and THEN devour it, that'll show Rick". The only other option would have been if someone from the Governors group picked it up, which obviously wouldn't be the case, since that would only have been a liability and of no use.

That's something I wondered about. We're to assume Judith was devoured but on my second viewing of the episode, I didn't see much blood in her carrier at all. You'd figure it would be messier or that the carrier itself would be more damaged. It doesn't have to be incredibly graphic to the point where people are disturbed by it but just enough so there's no point in speculating. I'm still going to assume she's gone but I do recognize the possibility that someone took her to safety.

[JRY]

On one hand, it was so very predictable. Once TG took Hershel and Michonne, I knew exactly what was going to go down. The action was fun and seeing Mitch get bolted by Daryl was epic, but it was all so completely predictable - and before you say it, I've never read the comics.

Do you guys ever think that maybe sometimes predictability can be a good thing in a story? Yeah, it was pretty obvious from the beginning that Hershel was going to die... and that is a big part in what kept me on the edge of my seat throughout the episode. Not everything has to have a twist.

[JRY]

I downgraded my vote to good due to Daryl Dixon using a zombie as cover against rifle rounds.

Yeah, that bugged me a bit too.

[Drunktard]

I love the direction they are going to with these new smaller groups being formed now.
Glenn appears to be the only main character that made it to the bus with a bunch of redshirts, so I don't think they will be showing much of that group, they had the bus with the supplies so its pretty much clear they will be fine for now.

Bob was shot but he seemed fine, I guess he will make it. He was conscious so that's good, he can tell Maggie and Sasha what they need to do to treat his wound.

Beth lived!!! Yay! I was really worried when they kept saying she was looking for Judith, but she made it! And she is with Daryl, that's going to be an interesting duo to watch. I doubt they will have anything romantic going on, but I really like those 2 characters so just watching them surviving on the woods will be awesome, it would be even better if somehow Michonne met them somewhere.

Rick and Carl are pretty shook up with Judith's death. I know Rick's plot armor will somehow heal his leg, that's good because I don't think either one of them has the supplies or the knowledge to fix a gunshot wound.

Ty and the girls, this will be an awesome group to follow. It won't be long until Tyreese realizes Lizzie and her sister were the ones feeding the walkers, and since Rick never told him about Carol he still thinks the murderer is the one feeding the walkers, so it will be pretty interesting to see how he reacts to that. Would he kill the girls? That's also the only group I can think Judith could be on. The girls were running off somewhere when they were last seen, they could be going back to grab Judith. But that doesn't explain where all that blood came from.

So the governor has a tank? Doesn't matter, the prison's got Daryl! I think it was awesome how he managed to destroy the tank all by himself, I can look past the bulletproof walker-shield.

Michonne was also great. I love how sneaky she is. She managed to free herself and get her katana without getting shot by the people all around her, AND she saved Rick! I wonder where she is now, she didn't have anything left to do at the prison so why was she not with Rick and Carl?

Great episode, I went from cheering to being afraid for someone's life, back to cheering so many times, it was great. I am going to miss Hershel though, that was a sad way to go

[Lioness]

I think the upshot of all of this is that many of the 'Woodbury' red shirts will probably never be seen again and we can start focusing on the core group (albeit, all spread out) again.

[JRY]

Bingo.

He tells them basically "We can take the prison without firing a shot, nobody has to die.. then slices off Herschell's head, provoking a barrage of gunfire that they dutifully march right into.

Three points:

1. Not all of them dutifully followed TG into the firefight after he killed Hershel.
2. Rick and the others began firing upon the group (understandably). What would you do if you were fired upon? That's right, fire back.
3. You are looking through the lens of normal society where every day isn't a life-or-death struggle.

[Kikora]

Your point makes absolutely no sense. Please explain to me what visual cues and foreshadowing this season has provided to lead anyone to believe Hershel was the next to go. I'd really like to hear it. Because going by your post I just quoted, that logic supports that Hershel was not likely to die since he does have a fanbase and people don't hate him in the slightest. He is what I would personally consider "beloved" but I guess that interpretation varies between viewer to viewer, and I respect that. I am just slightly irked at people on this forum bragging about how they "called it" when this is a SPOILER FORUM with many resources to peek into. Whether or not you personally indulged in those spoilers isn't the point -- the "predictability" of this finale is a byproduct of international trailers that just give too much away, in combination with a ton of credible spoiler sources out there. Word of mouth is a powerful thing...

I am genuinely curious what the writers could have done to "startle" the audience without making it incredibly cheesy (and the finale had plenty of cheese enough as it is) and forced for the sake of shock value. Because that would be poor writing, in my opinion. Main characters don't need to die in order to generate a surprised reaction. A new revelation, like the illness, or an impactful decision, like Carol's banishment, are examples of "shocking" moments that don't necessarily need bloodshed to generate a reaction. People are expecting way too much from this show...it has its cheesy and annoying moments. Plenty of them actually. But the complaints I'm hearing are just not quite hitting the mark....

First of all, I am not BRAGGING that I saw it coming, I am COMPLAINING that it was obvious. If a viewer can sit down and predict, sometimes episodes ahead of time, exactly what would happen, then that is a problem. It is indicative of bad, lazy, uninspired writing.

Hershel wasn't disliked, but he wasn't a character that brought in a lot of attention either. People liked him alright, he has a number of fans, but to most people he wasn't what they came to see in the same way that Rick, Glenn, Daryl, Michonne, or Maggie are. His presence as a doctor on the show was already compromised by the fact that Carol was a talented and eager student, someone who could and would treat people and wasn't disabled, and then they brought in two other medical professionals. In short, his story was quickly losing its charm, and the fact that he can't really move forward as a character means that he is expendable in a way that others aren't. Think about it this way, every other character has made huge personal changes in the last season which made them more interesting to watch, even Beth who was an all-around bore before has had a few interesting scenes which show how she has changed and grown... But Hershel? He was basically the same man coming into season three was he was coming into season four. There just isn't much to do with him, and keeping a character stagnant while everyone else is changed by the world can be difficult and quickly turn the audience off. So he was one part just not popular enough, and one part just hard to work with.

So, no, he wasn't hated, but he just wasn't liked well enough. Like Beth, who will likely be walker fodder soon enough, he exists in relation to other characters. He is Maggie and Beth's dad, Rick's adviser, the wise old sage, someone people usually watch to see him interact with other characters, rather than for his independent personality.

I could say that with Hershel, the pattern was bigger but still there. Instead of taking a hated character, they took one that was only somewhat liked, and rather than give him A redeeming scene, he got half a season. The entire plague plotline was created to make his character more invaluable, and therefore missed, which is why it was so shortlived. Think about it, the flu arrived, Hershel rides in to save the day, does, and dies. Suddenly his death is far more striking because we remember him as a hero, not as just another unappreciated wise soul. It is also why the writers very carefully made him the ONLY reputable doctor, banishing Carol, making one new doc an alcoholic, and quickly killing the other. Once the need to show Hershel as he hero they couldn't have survived without, the flu just vanishes, no longer a problem.


As for what to do differently? How about kill Maggie? It would have been a riskier move, but would have shocked the audience and have had long lasting effects on the story itself, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Hershel was still alive after the Gov sliced his neck/shoulder, why not roll with it? He is bleeding out on the ground as the gunfight starts, but maybe that wasn't just a bad swing, it was turning the man into bait. Hershel lays struggling for his life as his daughters look on, and when the fence falls, the people flood in, and walkers draw near, Maggie runs out to save her father, where the Governor brutally murders her before Michonne cuts him down. It'd have the same drama as the fight with Rick, only with actual fear because you know the person he is fighting could, and does, die. Then as the series moves forward, we get to see the same sense of mourning from Beth, even more-so from Glenn, and Hershel (If he survives) would have to live with the fact that he inadvertently killed his daughter. It'd be an actual surprise.

Granted, that is just off the top of my head.

[Shipper]

Yeah I get what you mean. Killing the higher profile characters is kind of a double-edged sword. If they don't die it looks like the show doesn't have guts. If they do, some would say it as a cheap trick for shock value.

Spoiler

Glenn's death in the comic was too much for some people. I've read about people who actually quit reading the comic because of it.

I am one of those people.

[farswell7]

It would be interesting for Tyreese and the kids to run across Carol.....Rick didn't get around to telling him it was her.....

And for that very reason, I think they will be the ones to run into Carol.

[JRY]

And Hershel really was somewhat of a burden through most of season 2 and 3.

Hey, the guy saved Carl's life with his veterinary knowledge. I would say he was one of the most useful characters.

[Lurwalker]

1. I think he loved Meghan but realized when he saw she had been bitten it was best to off her as he now realizes she is really dead. 2. It is implied that she was fully eaten IMO as there was fresh looking blood in the carrier but I would've preferred them make it more obvious that she had been made a meal of instead of having to assume it. 3. As the group has been split and given some of what Kirkman said on TD I assume it is following the comic for a good part of S2. 4. Hey great he thought to throw the grenade in but I was just happy he got to take out Mitch. 5. Alicia was warned by Tara so I didn't feel bad for her when Lizzie got her but I am not overly happy about the kids taking up arms as I really don' believe that most of the other group would've done any harm to them unless Mitch would've gotten them with the cannon fire. 6. I don't think that they are ready to kill Rick off yet so Carl has no choice but to help save his dad. 7.Maggie and Glenn will eventually find one another but it may take a few episodes. 8. I am taking it that the bus is heading to wherever the regrouping area may have been established but I don't think that too many on that bus will be surviving to much afterward or that group may find the safehaven that was advertised on the radio and Glenn may leave to find who is left from his group to get them to the safezone.

[thump]

Two things I think are pretty obvious..

1. Judith is alive and Michonne has her. Think about it, that tearful breakdown she had holding Judith earlier this season has to lead somewhere. And she disappeared quickly after leaving the Governor to die.

2. Carol and Tyreese are going to meet up. Carol trained the girls they saved Tyreese. He is now watching over them He conveniently never found out Carol killed Karen. This is an obvious setup to have them all meet and create tension and drama in the second half.

Now is it just me or does anyone else think the two little ones that ran off first (Leaving Lily & Lizzy to shoot) are never to be seen again..

[Lioness]

Tyreese escaping with all those little kids reminds me of Arnold in Kindergarten Cop. I can't even imagine how he is going to handle all those well armed little kids. There could actually be some humor going forward there.

[Deadpelican]

Three points:


What would you do if you were fired upon? That's right, fire back.

The governor provoked the gun fire by cutting Herschell's head off, after saying they'd take the prison without anyone getting hurt. I would have turned my gun on the governor.

I sure as hell wouldn't be taking orders from him.

[JRY]

Maybe the reason people always find something to complain about is because there's always something to complain about? That's true for every show

When I say complain I don't mean critique. Any show can be critiqued. But I think it gets rather silly when posters start looking like the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

"Worst episode ever!"

[thump]

Tyreese escaping with all those little kids reminds me of Arnold in Kindergarten Cop. I can't even imagine how he is going to handle all those well armed little kids. There could actually be some humor going forward there.

"It's not a tumor"

[JRY]

If a viewer can sit down and predict, sometimes episodes ahead of time, exactly what would happen, then that is a problem. It is indicative of bad, lazy, uninspired writing.

So, going by your logic then foreshadowing must be a bad thing in a story?

[Lioness]

I think the element of believably was missing in the attack on the prison. I could have bought into the idea that this group of people would have followed a man they just met to the prison if they had just endured some kind of serious attack on their camp and had experienced a number of losses. That single walker wasn't enough to drive these people to cold blooded murder of a group of people with children. While Martinez was in charge it seemed like they were holding their own for the most part. True, they were living on meager resources, but they didn't seem like killers. Well, except for TG and Mitch. They readily accepted Pete as their leader and he was a very moral man. Maybe a couple of the other men could have been convinced to try to take the prison but there were a lot of people there who just seemed like normal people. Terror is a solid motivator and I just didn't get that vibe from them.

[bamasaintsteve]

Great episode although I hated seeing Hershal get killed even though I knew it would happen. I agree with another poster that Bob may be the rat guy seeing as how he had that box and was acting nervous.

[JRY]

The governor provoked the gun fire by cutting Herschell's head off, after saying they'd take the prison without anyone getting hurt. I would have turned my gun on the governor.

Once again, you are looking through the lens of a normal and stable society. Not saying you wouldn't have turned your gun on TG (I'd like to think I would've) but the mentality is different in the Walking Dead world.