Carols Knife School

- - - - - Carol Rick knives secrets council

#26
gracie lou

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It makes no sense why Rick, or anyone, would object to the children learning walker killing/defending techniques. It should be standard training for all children and adults.


I'm guessing that Rick thinks that he made the wrong decision with Carl, after what happened at the end of last season. I think Rick just wants the kids to have the opportunity to be kids, and wants them to have as normal of a life as possible. Obviously, that is not really doable, and a downright dangerous point of view. I'm sure Rick will wake up to reality very soon (and flip-flop once again). I really don't think it was necessary to go to that extreme with Rick - it just makes him look foolish.
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#27
jayde

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As a parent, it makes me respect her less, and I've always been a Carol supporter. It seems like she is keeping this a secret from all the adults, since she waits until the man leaves and then starts her survival lesson.
I think parents should always have the last say, especially in a zombie apocalypse.
Finally, I'm in the camp that children need capable adults looking after them, and no matter how well you think you are teaching them about the dangers of the outside world, they are still children and will not be able to handle themselves like an adult. This applies to the real world as well. The biggest defense for a child to be safe is to have a caring adult looking after them, NOT teaching them to do it themselves.
Anyways, I know it's a bit different in a zombie apocalypse, but really, with all the adults that die left and right, most kids will not stand a chance, no matter how much training you give them.


In any other situation, I'd agree and say that as long as it isn't actually harming the kids, then the parents way of raising them trumps everything else. In the ZA, that just doesn't apply. Everyone is a liability there, especially the kids because they don't have the skill or experience dealing with these things to handle themselves properly - especially the Woodbury children as they actually don't seem to realize the danger involved. That means when the shit hits the fan, 10 year old Johnny and Susie merely lacking the skill to at least deter a single walker can mean the deaths of many in just seconds. Obviously it still falls on the adults to look after their own but anyone that is old enough to handle a weapon and respect it but hasn't been taught to, is nothing but walker fodder and has absolutely no fighting chance. It's expected that Carol, Beth, or any other adult would rush to help protect a child in danger but in the ZA it should also be expected that parents take the due diligence to teach children of an appropriate age (9+) how to protect themselves in case there's no one around. In the ZA no longer can you ensure 'capable adults looking after them' because odds are good that at one point or another, one of those kids is going to be left on his/her own and won't stand a chance at defending him/herself if characters like Carol remain PC and abide by the ridiculous rules of not teaching the kids to handle themselves.

I think if a child is taught how to defend themselves then they definitely would stand a chance. Even the smallest person can win the hardest fight if they have the training. As an adult female standing at 5'3, let me tell you that I've taken on men much taller and heavier guys. If you know how to use your attributes (small stature, faster than a larger threat, easier to dodge/duck) then these kids actually do stand a chance. Sophia was useless and look how that turned out. Carl learned how to use a gun and he's still kicking and even saved some people on his own.
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#28
OMEN

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Hell we don't live a zombie apocalypse and I've taught my kids various forms of defense. My boys know how to use guns, knives and their fist.

IMO carol is doing the right thing. Plus not all walkers are standing. Remember Hershel's zombie, bicycle zombie amputated zombie in the gym etc etc. not training them would be a harming them.
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#29
lisa_91

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Carl wasn't looking "pissed" IMO, he was looking hurt/surprised. I guess he was hurt that no-one told him what was going on, not even his friend Patrick. He was excluded from it.
When he finally decides to "be like a kid" for once and go to "story time" he finds out that they are having secret weapon lessons.. and then Carol asks him to don't tell his dad, who he is trying to get close to again.

i totally would learn the kids how to defend themselves, but i see the conflict going on here.
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#30
shrike

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I don't think Carl has even used a knife on a walker yet; not that we've seen anyways
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#31
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I don't think Carl has even used a knife on a walker yet; not that we've seen anyways


No, but he carried a knife for protection. Maggie used it to perform Lori's c-section in The Killer Within (S3E4).
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#32
DominusPisces

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You also have realize.. the idea of kids... I mean literally.. what we consider too young is VERY new in human society. Generally children were put in fields or doing chores... and I mean REAL chores the second their muscles could do it and their brains could be taught. Hell... even a 7 year old can pick up eggs from the chicken coup. And if the village was in a disputed area, and the kids grew up with a siege mentality ( Like TWD ) The second they could pick up a sharp stick they would be taught where to poke it for maximum affect. Tween... Teen, Young Adult... these are made up terms used mostly for census taking. In the Renaissance. and earlier.. there was Infant.. Nursing, toddler, then farm hand or apprentice. Or if you were lucky Spoiled Noble... if you were REALLY lucky.. spoiled MALE noble.
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#33
jayde

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Carl wasn't looking "pissed" IMO, he was looking hurt/surprised. I guess he was hurt that no-one told him what was going on, not even his friend Patrick. He was excluded from it.
When he finally decides to "be like a kid" for once and go to "story time" he finds out that they are having secret weapon lessons.. and then Carol asks him to don't tell his dad, who he is trying to get close to again.

i totally would learn the kids how to defend themselves, but i see the conflict going on here.


I really like the way you put this. I think you're spot on where it concerns Carl. I don't think Carol is wrong for trying to teach the kids to defend themselves but I can see why Carl was so thrown off by it.
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#34
Matt G

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Well in all honesty maybe she thought he didn't need the training you know? Yeah he wasn't I guess invited but at the same time would he really go to learn when he's been through the ringer. He is completely capable of defending himself and I think Patrick knows that as well. Characterizing him as an adult.
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#35
DominusPisces

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Well in all honesty maybe she thought he didn't need the training you know? Yeah he wasn't I guess invited but at the same time would he really go to learn when he's been through the ringer. He is completely capable of defending himself and I think Patrick knows that as well. Characterizing him as an adult.


I think in all honesty...anyone who WANTS to go to story time... probably was the kind of person who was too sheltered to understand the reality of the world and NEEDED Carol's expertise in knives.
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#36
meesha1971

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As a parent, it makes me respect her less, and I've always been a Carol supporter. It seems like she is keeping this a secret from all the adults, since she waits until the man leaves and then starts her survival lesson.
I think parents should always have the last say, especially in a zombie apocalypse.
Finally, I'm in the camp that children need capable adults looking after them, and no matter how well you think you are teaching them about the dangers of the outside world, they are still children and will not be able to handle themselves like an adult. This applies to the real world as well. The biggest defense for a child to be safe is to have a caring adult looking after them, NOT teaching them to do it themselves.
Anyways, I know it's a bit different in a zombie apocalypse, but really, with all the adults that die left and right, most kids will not stand a chance, no matter how much training you give them.


I would disagree because, being a parent myself, I have learned that it is impossible for any adult to guarantee they will be with their children 24/7. That's what happened with Sophia. She was just a few feet away from Carol when that herd came up on them, but there was no way for Carol to get to her - or vice versa - without drawing the attention of the herd. They were stuck under separate cars so Carol could not do anything to protect Sophia or stop her from getting out from under the car too soon. Add in the fact that people have to sleep and you can't guarantee you will wake up before your child - or that they will wake you up when they get up. Not to mention the little things like going to the bathroom, bathing, changing clothes, etc... You can't have your kids stuck to your hip 24/7. It's just not possible and living in a world where anyone could find themselves in danger at any time, it would be irresponsible for any parent not to make sure their kids were taught to understand those dangers and be able to defend themselves.

However, I think this is exactly what Carol is dealing with at the prison because a lot of those parents would be from Woodbury where they had been sheltered and were having picnics with iced drinks. Their kids are still alive because of that, but at the same time, that prevented them from really understanding what is necessary to survive in this new world. Woodbury was a walker attack waiting to happen and they were just lucky that nothing truly horrible ever happened there. Now they're having to face reality and it wouldn't surprise me if some of those parents still want to believe that they can always be there to protect their kids and are still holding on to the notion that kids should be sheltered and protected. They're going to have to learn how to let go of that if they want their kids to survive.

I do think the fact that Carol is doing this in secret will result in some backlash on her, but I also think that Patrick's death and the subsequent walker attack is going to be a wake up call for anyone who is deluding themselves about being able to protect their kids 24/7. I think they are going to be caught sleeping - literally - and that's going to be a major lesson for all of them about the necessity of teaching the kids how to protect themselves. Carol might be going about this the wrong way at the moment, but ultimately, I think everyone will agree with her that it needs to be done - though that might take some time.
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#37
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I do think the fact that Carol is doing this in secret will result in some backlash on her, but I also think that Patrick's death and the subsequent walker attack is going to be a wake up call for anyone who is deluding themselves about being able to protect their kids 24/7. I think they are going to be caught sleeping - literally - and that's going to be a major lesson for all of them about the necessity of teaching the kids how to protect themselves.


I have to agree with this - just not so sure about backlash. My first thought was that those knife skills will come in handy when Patrick makes his rounds while the others are still asleep. It may well be a child who kills him, thus showing the other adults that Carol's defense classes are necessary.
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#38
CreepMeOut

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I'm glad that someone there has common sense and is teaching the kids how to protect themselves and kill walkers. I'm shocked that no one has taught them anything yet and allow them to treat the zombies as pets (giving them names etc). Time is very precious in a ZA and If the world ever goes back to being normal again it may be way ahead of their lifetime, so the sooner they learn these skills the better.
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#39
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I understand now why Carol specifically did not want Rick to know. Seems like after Carl shot the boy in the woods Rick was worried Carl was becoming to "cold hearted" and so made the decision to not carry a weapon and not have Carl carry. I guess Carol thought Rick would want to stop any child from carrying weapons at the risk of them becoming robotic assassins. I do think Carol teaching them is a good idea, especially after today's episode Rick has seen that they can try and make the prion a safe place but there doesn't seem to be such a thing any longer and everyone should be able to defend themselves and others. I still think keeping it a secret is wrong but that's just me.
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#40
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Carol And Carl= Sneaky And Snitch


Why is Carol so sneaky? It is a zombie apocalypse! Of course the kids need to know about self-defense from walkers. Why would any parents be against that? Why would Rick be against that? What authority does Rick have to stop Carol? There is a council now, Rick has no business interfering with other peoples children's survival skills. The whole thing is weird but Carol being so sly makes me wonder about her.

Also why would Carl go rat? What a snitch! Can't trust Carl or Carol, or Rick, for that matter. I am becoming a Daryl "fangirl" more and more.
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#41
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Carol asked a child to hide something from their father, the father that's sacrificed and given everything to give him a childhood. That's wrong in my opinion.

Carl never promised he'd kept it a secret, he "ratted" out Carol, but what he also did was get it through to Rick that what Carol is doing is right. Carl agrees with the story-time lessons, and now does Rick.

Carl made it a win-win situation. He didn't have to hide anything from his father and then feel shamed when Rick would of eventually found out, and Rick isn't going to try and stop Carol or tell the other parents.
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#42
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I laughed when you named them sneaky and snitch as it was fitting for them both. That whole conversation last week and tonight was something I was upset with in the writing as it just dumbs down the whole situation as well as the character of Carol. They have been doing a good job writing Carol as less of the victim and really taking a good positive roll with her character until this. This to me seemed as something she would've done with Sophia to hide something from her dad so he wouldn't beat Carol up. Now Carol and Rick aren't married and she should've just stood her ground if had something to say instead of putting Carl in the middle. I agree with Tyler in that Carl snitching was done to clear his conscious of it I don't think anyone should have a problem with Carol teaching these kids how to kill a walker as everyone from 5 to 105 has a right to fight for their own life.
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#43
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But as a member of the council shouldn't she informed the rest of them that teaching children to defend themself is important? If she is so afraid of Rick telling it to the parents of the children she probably won't have.

I think Carl did the right thing (for a change) by convincing Rick Carol is doing a necessary thing, even if he had to rat Carol out. Good thing Rick agreed.
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#44
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I guess the knife school is kind of a non issue now that Rick don't care and isn't going to make an issue of it. Obviously Lizzie's dad isn't going to bring it up. :)
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#45
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You also have realize.. the idea of kids... I mean literally.. what we consider too young is VERY new in human society. Generally children were put in fields or doing chores... and I mean REAL chores the second their muscles could do it and their brains could be taught. Hell... even a 7 year old can pick up eggs from the chicken coup. And if the village was in a disputed area, and the kids grew up with a siege mentality ( Like TWD ) The second they could pick up a sharp stick they would be taught where to poke it for maximum affect. Tween... Teen, Young Adult... these are made up terms used mostly for census taking. In the Renaissance. and earlier.. there was Infant.. Nursing, toddler, then farm hand or apprentice. Or if you were lucky Spoiled Noble... if you were REALLY lucky.. spoiled MALE noble.


I think you are making a very important point. Up until about the start of the 20th century in rural America, children were taught to fend for themselves. If a mother died and a father had to hunt for food, the children would be responsible for running things at home. There would be no baby sitter. The eldest would care for the others. This idea of childhood extending into (now) the late teens and early 20's is a very new concept. People are living longer now and we have many luxuries and conveniences that allow us to take a slower road into adulthood. Society in TWD doesn't have those advantages. Life expectancy is vastly diminished and virtually all of the modern conveniences and aids to living are gone. Civilization in the show has devolved to a point where it is back to man vs predator, and being so, we would naturally see a reversion back to the older ideas of children carrying more responsibility for their own welfare out of sheer necessity.
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#46
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You also have realize.. the idea of kids... I mean literally.. what we consider too young is VERY new in human society. Generally children were put in fields or doing chores... and I mean REAL chores the second their muscles could do it and their brains could be taught. Hell... even a 7 year old can pick up eggs from the chicken coup. And if the village was in a disputed area, and the kids grew up with a siege mentality ( Like TWD ) The second they could pick up a sharp stick they would be taught where to poke it for maximum affect. Tween... Teen, Young Adult... these are made up terms used mostly for census taking. In the Renaissance. and earlier.. there was Infant.. Nursing, toddler, then farm hand or apprentice. Or if you were lucky Spoiled Noble... if you were REALLY lucky.. spoiled MALE noble.

Absolutely. And obviously, Carol feels very guilty about Sophie's death. If Carol had given Sophie a knife or anything to defend herself with, she might not have ended up as a walker in Hershel's barn. I think teaching the children is very smart and practical and I can totally understand Carol's motivation to do it. However, I do agree that she shouldn't be sneaky about it. She should have been open and honest about her intentions. I also understand Rick's desire to let the kids be kids. However, I don't think it was Carl's ability to defend himself that made him cold. I think it was that Carl lacked the maturity to handle the responsibilities that Rick and Lori allowed him to shoulder. They were treating Carl like a man before he was emotionally ready. Yes, Carl had the skills and yes, he was needed. But he was still a child and his coping mechanism was to turn cold. Still, if the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow, you can bet your booties that I'll be teaching both my kids to handle knives, ice picks, pole arms, guns, bows, etc.
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#47
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I'm guessing that Rick thinks that he made the wrong decision with Carl, after what happened at the end of last season. I think Rick just wants the kids to have the opportunity to be kids, and wants them to have as normal of a life as possible. Obviously, that is not really doable, and a downright dangerous point of view. I'm sure Rick will wake up to reality very soon (and flip-flop once again). I really don't think it was necessary to go to that extreme with Rick - it just makes him look foolish.


Agreed. Rick mentioned to Daryl this past episode something to the effect of "I almost lost my boy" and I think Rick is having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that ZA is changing everyone, Carl included. Rick has lost nearly everything at this point that was important to him pre-ZA and I think he thought of Carl as that last piece. However Carl cannot remain his "innocent little boy" in ZA if he is going to survive. Rick is doing Carl a disservice by babying him at this point especially when he himself had already put a gun in Carl's hands before. Rick also knows he cannot be everywhere all the time and how important being able to defend oneself is.

Carl on the otherhand seems to be torn between wanting to please his dad and wanting to contribute. I was actually surprised he went as far this episode to supply Rick with information such as him shooting a gun to save Michonne and Carol's knife training. For both incidents it would have been easy enough to hide his involvement in. With so much going on no one would have questioned the details of how Michonne was rescued and its unlikely Carol would have mentioned Carl knew if Rick found out about her knife training. He seems to be trying to make things up to his dad, maybe because he realized how much of a heel he was being last season, I am not sure why but I definitely got the 'snitch' vibe.
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#48
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I was just thinking about how ridiculous it was that Carol was thinking of ampu that guys arm off with that little knife/ also why would she not be seeking out some help with that thing/ when hershels leg was hacked off it took a couple to hold him down.
Carol does seem to think she is super woman now
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#49
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I was just thinking about how ridiculous it was that Carol was thinking of ampu that guys arm off with that little knife/ also why would she not be seeking out some help with that thing/ when hershels leg was hacked off it took a couple to hold him down.
Carol does seem to think she is super woman now


Well, any time wasted could have meant him dying and turning. She didn't really have the time to plan out the surgery. She took what she had, and planned to work with that.
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#50
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Agreed. Rick mentioned to Daryl this past episode something to the effect of "I almost lost my boy" and I think Rick is having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that ZA is changing everyone, Carl included. Rick has lost nearly everything at this point that was important to him pre-ZA and I think he thought of Carl as that last piece. However Carl cannot remain his "innocent little boy" in ZA if he is going to survive. Rick is doing Carl a disservice by babying him at this point especially when he himself had already put a gun in Carl's hands before. Rick also knows he cannot be everywhere all the time and how important being able to defend oneself is.

Carl on the otherhand seems to be torn between wanting to please his dad and wanting to contribute. I was actually surprised he went as far this episode to supply Rick with information such as him shooting a gun to save Michonne and Carol's knife training. For both incidents it would have been easy enough to hide his involvement in. With so much going on no one would have questioned the details of how Michonne was rescued and its unlikely Carol would have mentioned Carl knew if Rick found out about her knife training. He seems to be trying to make things up to his dad, maybe because he realized how much of a heel he was being last season, I am not sure why but I definitely got the 'snitch' vibe.


First, welcome back!

Secondly, I beg to differ about it being so easy to hide his involvement. It seems that everyone knows Rick's stance. Rick may have also asked the others to tell him if they see Carl disobeying. If so, someone might have told even if Rick didn't ask specifically about that incident.
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