[JesusMonroe]

Once again, that is an overly simplistic take on Walter White. Throughout most of the entire series Walter straddled the line between Heisenberg and Walter White, using his family as his main motivation until the power absolutely corrupted him. He had deluded himself into believing that he was doing it all for his family and that is what made his final scene with Skyler so powerful, he finally admitted his true motivation.
I feel like we are comparing apples to oranges, however. The constant comparisons to other TV shows, is not doing any good. I think that most people would agree that Breaking Bad was a better written show and the premise of the show was genius. Game of Thrones has a fantastic blueprint to draw from and a much larger budget. So, if you are going to compare these shows, TWD will always come out the loser.
It isn't as if Rick has multiple personalties for the hell of it. They have put the character through hell and it is only natural that he would react accordingly, pushing him to the brink of insanity. Sometimes, that also means that a character will regress.
I'm not sure how I feel about Rick's arc this season, but I will give it the benefit of doubt considering that we have only seen one episode.

For the record, I wasn't looking at Walter White's character that way, hence the "What if...?" My point was that it would be absolutely ridiculous if Walter's character did change that way season to season, the same way Rick has. It's impossible to look at Walter White simplisticly. You could write a novel about him. I just wanted to clarify that part because I think the way I worded it led to some miscommunication. But I will take your lead and stop comparing it to other shows for this debate, and will reserve judgement on Rick's character until I see his arc play out in Season 4

[Serenity@sea]

For the record, I wasn't looking at Walter White's character that way, hence the "What if...?" My point was that it would be absolutely ridiculous if Walter's character did change that way season to season, the same way Rick has. It's impossible to look at Walter White simplistically. You could write a novel about him. I just wanted to clarify that part because I think the way I worded it led to some miscommunication. But I will take your lead and stop comparing it to other shows for this debate, and will reserve judgement on Rick's character until I see his arc play out in Season 4

I agree completely that Walter White is an incredibly complex character.
Rick is complex, as well. I'm certainly not saying that they haven't taken some missteps along the way.
I should have added to my previous post that TWD has a fantastic blueprint to draw from, as well.

[d2daybreak]

I see Rick's stepping back as a reaction not only of his character to his son's actions, but also a reaction of TPTB to the criticisms that the fans have given about Rick's parenting skills for two seasons. In season two, Carl was never where he was supposed to be. He kept wandering off and never received any correction for it. Rick and Lori both got criticism for not disciplining Carl, and in this instance, I was one of the critics. In season three, many people (not me this time), complained that Rick, in his grief, wasn't there for Carl. A widow myself, I gave Rick more room here since he was only in Downtown Crazy Town for about a week or so, and Carl had the support of the group during that time. Anyway, my point is that fans criticized Rick's parenting skills and I feel Rick's new found parental attentiveness to be somewhat of a response to TPTB responding to that fan criticism.

[Deadpelican]

My point was that it would be absolutely ridiculous if Walter's character did change that way season to season, the same way Rick has.

I don't mind what they've done with Rick, personally.

Nothing against Breaking Bad, but as the series progressed, it was clear that White was locked in a downward spiral that would end in death for him and misery for everyone he claimed to care about.

Yes, he was complex, but there was really only one direction his story could go (further into darkness), and only one way for his story to end (with his death).

That's NOT complaint or a criticism. Just an observation.

I guess the point is these are two completely different kinds of characters. I don't know how you can compare them.

[JesusMonroe]

I don't mind what they've done with Rick, personally.

Nothing against Breaking Bad, but as the series progressed, it was clear that White was locked in a downward spiral that would end in death for him and misery for everyone he claimed to care about.

Yes, he was complex, but there was really only one direction his story could go (further into darkness), and only one way for his story to end (with his death).

That's NOT complaint or a criticism. Just an observation.

I guess the point is these are two completely different kinds of characters. I don't know how you can compare them.

They can be compared because they're character arcs of two main characters that are antiheroes. They also need to get darker and colder to survive in this new world they've entered into, while trying to protect their family at all costs. Yes, this is at face value and I'm being very general

Breaking Bad Final Season Spoilers

Spoiler

Obviously Walt was going to die at the end of all this. That was a sure thing since the first episode when he was diagnosed with cancer. And it didn't end with death and misery for everyone around him. The ending was actually a bit bittersweet and redemptive

[meesha1971]

Most comedies have time jumps between seasons. With that, it's fine, because it's a comedy. You're there to laugh.

Drama's have time jumps as well. Charmed, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, CSI - all versions, etc... It's not always due to having child actors. Sometimes it's simply a means to keep the show consistent with the actual calendar. There are also time jumps within the season in that an actual week passes between episodes. There are exceptions of course when they do 2 or 3 part continuations for events happening on the same day, but for the most part when the new episode airs a week or so will have passed in the timeline.

Game of Thrones didn't use time jumps and they have child actors. Guess what? Between Seasons 2 and 3, the child actor named Bran aged! Oh no! It ruins the show! There's no more continuity!!!!!!1111!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!111!!!!

No. Nobody said that. Some people cracked some jokes during the premieres. Game of Thrones and Homeland didn't bother to explain that type of thing and they didn't get a lot of complaints. It's not a soap opera either. It's the biggest production on TV. That's why I don't want to hear anyone say time jumps are necessary because of Chandler Riggs. It's a bad argument. Lost had the same phobia the Walking Dead writers did so they just simply wrote Walt out of the show, which led to some loose ends. Game of Thrones knows how to do it right.

Actually, that would be one of the flaws in Game of Thrones - and people have complained about that. Not everyone likes the show - myself included. Of course, I didn't like the books either. It's just not a story I'm interested in. The people who make TWD decided to use time jumps for consistency with Chandler Riggs aging. There is nothing wrong with that and I think the majority of viewers would prefer consistency to having Carl appear to grow two feet and his voice get deeper overnight. Time jumps are commonly used in television so it's really only an issue of how they are used and what the writers decide occurred during the time skipped over. In the case of TWD, they make a point to explain that not much happened during the time skipped so the time jumps haven't caused any major problems.

We don't know that. You're making assumptions out of nowhere.

They could've written a character who's brother was in the army that got killed, or any family member in the army. There could've even people who had qualms about living in a prison and having trouble adjusting life with the people they were attacking the same day. I know they found out the Governor lied but they could've written a character who really trusted the Governor. I don't know. The point is, it's ridiculous to assume everybody in Woodbury just came in smiling and holding hands with Rick's group. There had to be conflict

Spoiler

And if they do the serial killer storyline from the comic now, and the serial killer is anybody but Bob Stookey, it would be ridiculous to assume he waited 7 months before finally killing someone. No time jump=no problem

They could have done a lot of things. The point is that they chose not to do those things. They explained in the show and in interviews that nothing much happened during those 6-7 months. Nobody argued with Rick's decision to put down his gun to focus on raising his kids and tending crops. There were no major conflicts with the new people joining the prison. Carl accepted being punished for murder and learned his lesson. Michonne and Daryl started out looking for the governor together, but Daryl eventually decided it wasn't worth it and Michonne has had no luck. Nothing happened during the time skipped over that would be of much interest to the viewers. Again, that's how writers make time jumps work. They send characters off on vacation or have them talk about how nothing really happened during that time. If anything happened during that time that mattered, it wouldn't work. The 6-7 months that passed between the finale of season 3 and the premiere of season 4 were mostly uneventful with the most exciting thing happening being the addition of crops, livestock, and a crew of people killing walkers at the fences.

As for the spoiler, I think what they're doing with the disease and someone committing murder because they are playing God is more interesting at this point to be honest. The spoiler would have worked in season 3 - and I would agree they should have used that plot arc at that point, but Mazzara chose to skip over it in his rush to have them at war with the governor. I think they have found a very plausible and interesting story that is similar, but more fitting for the current storyline.

I'm frankly bored with Rick. His character goes absolutely nowhere every season and I truly think the writers have no clue what to do with him. I wrote this in my review earlier, but it's clear he's on this path now just so the writers can give him a character arc, but it doesn't come off as organic. The only card the Walking Dead seems to know how to play is "holding onto your humanity buy we can't in this world." It's getting old. Give me something different. They just keep giving Rick his humanity back so he can lose it again. In Season 5, Rick is going to be an a-hole again. In Season 6, he'll be humane again. He's the worst character on this show by far and it's not AL's fault. He's a fine actor. No writer besides Robert Kirkman seems to know what to do with a character like him

I disagree. The issue of humanity is significant to the story because, as was pointed out early on, that is a choice. They don't have to become inhumane monsters in order to survive. They can still build a community. They can still love and have friends and raise their kids. Things are not so black and white. Rick has been struggling to find that balance - which is a huge improvement over the comic for me. I find it to be very realistic to what an actual person - particularly someone with Rick's background - would struggle with in such circumstances.

Rick struggles because he was a cop. He has not murdered anyone in cold blood, but the people he had to kill in self defense weighs on him. Dave and Tony were a threat and they drew first so Rick had to kill them to protect himself, Hershel, and Glenn. Shane attempted to murder him three times - though Rick was only aware of two. Tomas tried to kill him while Andrew cheered him on. Rick knows he had no choice because those people would have killed him and probably others as well, but taking a life for any reason should not be easy. That's why cops are required to take leave and go through counseling any time they have to kill a suspect in the line of duty. They don't have that luxury now so Rick has to work through these things on his own. Rick has toed a very fine line and his fear is losing his humanity - not to mention his son losing his humanity because of him - but he hasn't actually lost it yet.

What was Daryl's breakdown? Are you talking about when he killed his brother? That wouldn't make it so he never had a breakdown again. That would seriously screw him up psychologically and make him an interesting character to explore during the time jump where he's on the brink of despair, with nobody to help him get through this now. Jesse Pinkman had a similar character arc in Season 4 of BB, and it came about beautifully. Walking Dead? "Skip it! It's not important!"

Actually, Daryl would be more likely to internalize his issues and not talk about them. He broke down in private when he found Merle and it is unlikely he would do so again - particularly with other people around. A year before, he would have separated himself from the group and lashed out in anger a lot, but he has developed since then. It helped him to know that Merle died trying to do something good because Merle had never done anything like that before. Merle was the one that nobody really trusted and everybody expected him to cause problems, but he died trying to save his brother. I do think there will be more about that at some point, but Daryl's so used to working things out on his own that it makes sense it would take some time before he reaches the point where he could talk about it with someone.

As for Michonne, I don't know if you've ever lost somebody close to you but saying goodbye to them doesn't make the grief easier/nonexistent. Death just doesn't matter on the Walking Dead, but they feel the need to put it in to make things "exciting" but it never has any consequence. Do you really think the show would be that different at this point if Lori didn't die? Rick seems to be exactly where he was during Season 2 so no to that. Axel? Nope. Merle? Nope. Andrea? Considering they could've had Andrea/Michonne raped/tortured to get Michonne to go on her revenge quest...Nope. The only one you could make an argument for would be Shane

Having the chance to say goodbye does make a huge difference actually. Of course Michonne is grieving for the loss of her friend, but it would have been worse for her if she hadn't been there when Andrea died. If Lori had not died, Rick would not have had that breakdown in season 3. He wouldn't have started screaming at a hallucination and caused Tyreese's group to leave thinking he was talking about them because he wouldn't have been having hallucinations. I do agree that some of the deaths in season 3 were pointless and didn't serve much purpose to the story - T-Dog, Oscar, and Axel in particularly. However, that is not always the case. Rick is not the same person now that he was a year ago. He's still struggling to find his balance, but that is a very roundabout journey. People are going to react to situations like that in different ways because people have different personalities and backgrounds. Each person in the group reacts to these situations in different ways because they are different people.

That's not what I've seen. I've seen people complaining that it's boring and that the story is better with them on the road.

That was my point actually. Viewers want the group to be in danger. Being on the road is constant danger. The thing is, AMC will never allow them to take that route because it's cheaper to film in static locations. As such, they have to find ways to create danger in those locations rather than just booting the group out on the road.

And if you say there's nothing they could've done in those six months besides grow crops, look above.

I didn't say there was nothing they could have done. They chose not to do those things so they could skip over a few months without disrupting the story. There is a difference. They're not skipping over important events that should have been shown. They made a conscience choice for nothing important to happen in the story during the months they skipped over.

In the comics, some of the best parts were clearing the prison out and making it feel like home. You had a gym, armory, weight room, basketball court, crop field, etc. It felt like a real character. The prison on the show is a failure because most people hate it.

To be clear, I'm not saying Season 4 should've been what the time jump didn't cover. I'm saying that the show could've gone in a different, more interesting direction entirely, that they can't now because of what they glossed over. There could've been like 4-6 episodes covering the time jump and end it with a montage set to "Crystal Blue Persuasion" of the crops growing, the prison clearing, etc. That would also solve the filler episode problem that every season has because the writers can't make a compelling sixteen episode narrative and every season has a filler episode. Case in point, the premiere.


Look above. The time jump made the prison less interesting

The problem there was how season 3 was handled. That's what they should have been doing in season 3 with months passing over the course of the season instead of a couple of weeks. They did show them clearing the prison, but it was rushed. They killed off the prisoners too soon - which would have been an excellent source of conflict that could have lasted for several episodes. They killed Lori too soon - her death was necessary for Rick's development, but it should have been near the end of the season rather than the beginning. They brought the governor in too soon and, in their rush to bring the prison into conflict with him, they skipped over a lot of things that would have made for a better story. They should have taken the time then to establish the prison as a safe place the group could consider a home so it would be plausible that they would want to stay there and be willing to fight to defend it. Instead, they rushed through everything so the group finds the prison, experiences nothing but tragedy there, and were at war with the governor over the course of a couple of weeks.

That's a large part of what made the time jump necessary. The terrible writing decisions made in season 3 made it necessary to do a reboot. They already cleared the walkers from the prison in season 3 - twice - so it wouldn't make sense to go back and do that again. Even action sequences can be boring when they're just doing the same thing over again and again. Planting crops and raising livestock are things that need to be done, but nobody wants to watch the step by step process of putting those things in place. Mazzara left them with a pretty big mess to clean up and the most efficient way to do that was to do a reboot. The end result is that the prison is now a home that has been safe for them so it is believable for them to want to stay there and fight to keep it.

And, yes, the prison being completely safe would be boring so they have to have threats. The growing number of walkers at the fences and the discovery that someone has been using rats to lure the walkers in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the fences all along. A deadly strain of the flu that can result in sudden and unexpected death within hours of contracting it - presenting the risk for walkers being inside the prison. Someone deciding to play God and murder people who are sick to prevent the disease from spreading. All of this is much more interesting than watching Rick tend crops for 6 months, IMO.

[Nareen]

Meesha, I agree with you completely.

For me, the struggle to remain human in the ZA, to try to survive without becoming pure killers like the Governor and the group in Nebraska is the interesting thing about the TWD. It's the reason I watch. Rick is the primary protagonist so it is his struggle that we focus on. He is still struggling to find a balance between mindless killing and the requirements of survival.

Season 3 was an incoherent mess, IMO, with some great episodes and moments and a lot of crap. Things seemed to be chopped and changed all over the place. Characters were introduced and eliminated in the blink of an eye, major characters were killed off purely for the shock value. There were so many missed opportunities. So far I am liking Season 4 better.

I am fine with them staying at the prison, probably because I haven't read the comics and am not waiting for anything in particular to happen. There is lots they can do there. The prison set is built on their own property, I believe, and is probably very convenient and economical to film on. Eventually they will move on, I expect.

[meesha1971]

Meesha, I agree with you completely.

For me, the struggle to remain human in the ZA, to try to survive without becoming pure killers like the Governor and the group in Nebraska is the interesting thing about the TWD. It's the reason I watch. Rick is the primary protagonist so it is his struggle that we focus on. He is still struggling to find a balance between mindless killing and the requirements of survival.

Season 3 was an incoherent mess, IMO, with some great episodes and moments and a lot of crap. Things seemed to be chopped and changed all over the place. Characters were introduced and eliminated in the blink of an eye, major characters were killed off purely for the shock value. There were so many missed opportunities. So far I am liking Season 4 better.

I am fine with them staying at the prison, probably because I haven't read the comics and am not waiting for anything in particular to happen. There is lots they can do there. The prison set is built on their own property, I believe, and is probably very convenient and economical to film on. Eventually they will move on, I expect.

Absolutely. The struggle to keep their humanity in the face of such horrific circumstances is one of things I love most about this show. Rick's struggle makes so much sense to me because of his background as a cop. Add in the concern for Carl becoming creepy child soldier and it makes perfect sense why he would want to step back and focus on being a father and trying to create some stability. He's gone from one extreme to the other to an extent, but I find that to be very realistic with him struggling to find the balance between the two.

Considering the expense they put into building the prison set - and apparently updating it for this season - I expect them to get as much use out of it as they can. They will eventually have to leave the prison, but they'll keep them there for a while I think. That was part of why I really do not understand why Mazzara was in such a rush for season 3. They built this great set and there was so much potential for the story there. They could have easily spread the prison arc over two seasons with good pacing and taking advantage of the conflict the prisoners could have created and taking the time to establish the prison as a safe place they could consider home. Season 3 was such a waste overall that I'm not surprised they did a reboot for season 4. The writing is so much better this season.

[JesusMonroe]

Drama's have time jumps as well. Charmed, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, CSI - all versions, etc... It's not always due to having child actors. Sometimes it's simply a means to keep the show consistent with the actual calendar. There are also time jumps within the season in that an actual week passes between episodes. There are exceptions of course when they do 2 or 3 part continuations for events happening on the same day, but for the most part when the new episode airs a week or so will have passed in the timeline.



Actually, that would be one of the flaws in Game of Thrones - and people have complained about that. Not everyone likes the show - myself included. Of course, I didn't like the books either. It's just not a story I'm interested in. The people who make TWD decided to use time jumps for consistency with Chandler Riggs aging. There is nothing wrong with that and I think the majority of viewers would prefer consistency to having Carl appear to grow two feet and his voice get deeper overnight. Time jumps are commonly used in television so it's really only an issue of how they are used and what the writers decide occurred during the time skipped over. In the case of TWD, they make a point to explain that not much happened during the time skipped so the time jumps haven't caused any major problems.



They could have done a lot of things. The point is that they chose not to do those things. They explained in the show and in interviews that nothing much happened during those 6-7 months. Nobody argued with Rick's decision to put down his gun to focus on raising his kids and tending crops. There were no major conflicts with the new people joining the prison. Carl accepted being punished for murder and learned his lesson. Michonne and Daryl started out looking for the governor together, but Daryl eventually decided it wasn't worth it and Michonne has had no luck. Nothing happened during the time skipped over that would be of much interest to the viewers. Again, that's how writers make time jumps work. They send characters off on vacation or have them talk about how nothing really happened during that time. If anything happened during that time that mattered, it wouldn't work. The 6-7 months that passed between the finale of season 3 and the premiere of season 4 were mostly uneventful with the most exciting thing happening being the addition of crops, livestock, and a crew of people killing walkers at the fences.

As for the spoiler, I think what they're doing with the disease and someone committing murder because they are playing God is more interesting at this point to be honest. The spoiler would have worked in season 3 - and I would agree they should have used that plot arc at that point, but Mazzara chose to skip over it in his rush to have them at war with the governor. I think they have found a very plausible and interesting story that is similar, but more fitting for the current storyline.



I disagree. The issue of humanity is significant to the story because, as was pointed out early on, that is a choice. They don't have to become inhumane monsters in order to survive. They can still build a community. They can still love and have friends and raise their kids. Things are not so black and white. Rick has been struggling to find that balance - which is a huge improvement over the comic for me. I find it to be very realistic to what an actual person - particularly someone with Rick's background - would struggle with in such circumstances.

Rick struggles because he was a cop. He has not murdered anyone in cold blood, but the people he had to kill in self defense weighs on him. Dave and Tony were a threat and they drew first so Rick had to kill them to protect himself, Hershel, and Glenn. Shane attempted to murder him three times - though Rick was only aware of two. Tomas tried to kill him while Andrew cheered him on. Rick knows he had no choice because those people would have killed him and probably others as well, but taking a life for any reason should not be easy. That's why cops are required to take leave and go through counseling any time they have to kill a suspect in the line of duty. They don't have that luxury now so Rick has to work through these things on his own. Rick has toed a very fine line and his fear is losing his humanity - not to mention his son losing his humanity because of him - but he hasn't actually lost it yet.



Actually, Daryl would be more likely to internalize his issues and not talk about them. He broke down in private when he found Merle and it is unlikely he would do so again - particularly with other people around. A year before, he would have separated himself from the group and lashed out in anger a lot, but he has developed since then. It helped him to know that Merle died trying to do something good because Merle had never done anything like that before. Merle was the one that nobody really trusted and everybody expected him to cause problems, but he died trying to save his brother. I do think there will be more about that at some point, but Daryl's so used to working things out on his own that it makes sense it would take some time before he reaches the point where he could talk about it with someone.



Having the chance to say goodbye does make a huge difference actually. Of course Michonne is grieving for the loss of her friend, but it would have been worse for her if she hadn't been there when Andrea died. If Lori had not died, Rick would not have had that breakdown in season 3. He wouldn't have started screaming at a hallucination and caused Tyreese's group to leave thinking he was talking about them because he wouldn't have been having hallucinations. I do agree that some of the deaths in season 3 were pointless and didn't serve much purpose to the story - T-Dog, Oscar, and Axel in particularly. However, that is not always the case. Rick is not the same person now that he was a year ago. He's still struggling to find his balance, but that is a very roundabout journey. People are going to react to situations like that in different ways because people have different personalities and backgrounds. Each person in the group reacts to these situations in different ways because they are different people.



That was my point actually. Viewers want the group to be in danger. Being on the road is constant danger. The thing is, AMC will never allow them to take that route because it's cheaper to film in static locations. As such, they have to find ways to create danger in those locations rather than just booting the group out on the road.



I didn't say there was nothing they could have done. They chose not to do those things so they could skip over a few months without disrupting the story. There is a difference. They're not skipping over important events that should have been shown. They made a conscience choice for nothing important to happen in the story during the months they skipped over.



The problem there was how season 3 was handled. That's what they should have been doing in season 3 with months passing over the course of the season instead of a couple of weeks. They did show them clearing the prison, but it was rushed. They killed off the prisoners too soon - which would have been an excellent source of conflict that could have lasted for several episodes. They killed Lori too soon - her death was necessary for Rick's development, but it should have been near the end of the season rather than the beginning. They brought the governor in too soon and, in their rush to bring the prison into conflict with him, they skipped over a lot of things that would have made for a better story. They should have taken the time then to establish the prison as a safe place the group could consider a home so it would be plausible that they would want to stay there and be willing to fight to defend it. Instead, they rushed through everything so the group finds the prison, experiences nothing but tragedy there, and were at war with the governor over the course of a couple of weeks.

That's a large part of what made the time jump necessary. The terrible writing decisions made in season 3 made it necessary to do a reboot. They already cleared the walkers from the prison in season 3 - twice - so it wouldn't make sense to go back and do that again. Even action sequences can be boring when they're just doing the same thing over again and again. Planting crops and raising livestock are things that need to be done, but nobody wants to watch the step by step process of putting those things in place. Mazzara left them with a pretty big mess to clean up and the most efficient way to do that was to do a reboot. The end result is that the prison is now a home that has been safe for them so it is believable for them to want to stay there and fight to keep it.

And, yes, the prison being completely safe would be boring so they have to have threats. The growing number of walkers at the fences and the discovery that someone has been using rats to lure the walkers in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the fences all along. A deadly strain of the flu that can result in sudden and unexpected death within hours of contracting it - presenting the risk for walkers being inside the prison. Someone deciding to play God and murder people who are sick to prevent the disease from spreading. All of this is much more interesting than watching Rick tend crops for 6 months, IMO.

I'm on my phone so I can't write out a proper response but here we go

1. Just because other shows use time jumps doesn't mean it's okay to use them
2. This is pretty bad logic. You don't like Game of Thrones? Fine. I can't make you. Opinions are opinions. But it's not one of the flaws in Game of Thrones. It's a nitpick at best and it's a bad example to show how "flawed" the show is. The show can't use time jumps for the sole purpose of fans correcting a nitpick
3. Anything explained in an interview is null and void immediately. I shouldn't be obligated to watch anything outside of an interview to understand what's in the show. The fact that things that happened during the time jump was uneventful doesn't matter. The fact is, knowing what we know about characters and how the world works, it should've been eventful but the writers just made it so everything went peachy for the survivors. As for what I wrote in the tag, I wrote it before the episode aired, and I couldn't have known that
4. So Darly broke down once and never broke down again? He internalized his pain? Just because he internalized his pain doesn't mean it wouldn't have been interesting to see. Case in point, Walter White
5. Michonne saying goodbye wouldn't make everything okay. It could've helped, but she'd still have a lot of problems. As for deaths that don't matter, in my post I said, "At this point." Did Rick breaking down and going crazy affect the story the way we see it now? No. It didn't

Frankly, I'm bored talking about this topic and I had thought this was already over and done with

[Deadpelican]

Can't wait for the spin off " GARDENING IN THE ZA WITH HERSCHEL GREEN "

I think the Breaking Bad spin off and TWD spinoff should be combined.

It should be called "Breaking Dead."

The DEA is out of business and people turn to crystal meth as a coping strategy in the zombie apocalypse.

Different drug lords fight over drug-trade dominance with the zombie apocalypse as a backdrop. The drug lords are working to turn people into drug addicts as a strategy to eliminate competition for resources such as food and water.

We learn that Walter White survived his gunshot wound and the zombie virus that everyone is carrying cured his lung cancer. Heisenberg is back and Jesse Pinkman emerges as a rival drug lord.

[JesusMonroe]

I think the Breaking Bad spin off and TWD spinoff should be combined.

It should be called "Breaking Dead."

The DEA is out of business and people turn to crystal meth as a coping strategy in the zombie apocalypse.

Different drug lords fight over drug-trade dominance with the zombie apocalypse as a backdrop. The drug lords are working to turn people into drug addicts as a strategy to eliminate competition for resources such as food and water.

We learn that Walter White survived his gunshot wound and the zombie virus that everyone is carrying cured his lung cancer. Heisenberg is back and Jesse Pinkman emerges as a rival drug lord.

"Walking Bad" would be more appropriate considering that Walt Jr. and Hershel are already Walking Bad.

[Deadpelican]

Or they keep doing time jumps for the detriment of the story

Why are some people so hung up on the time jumps?

Hell, there was a time jump in the very first episode of season one.

Rick gets shot when all appears normal.

While he's out, the zombie outbreak rages out-of-control, the military is decimated, Lori skips town with Shane.... and we see virtually none of .this.

That was a time jump that skipped over a lot of things, but I don't remember many complaints about that.

So why get bent out of shape over the jump between seasons?

[JesusMonroe]

Why are some people so hung up on the time jumps?

Hell, there was a time jump in the very first episode of season one.

Rick gets shot when all appears normal.

While he's out, the zombie outbreak rages out-of-control, the military is decimated, Lori skips town with Shane.... and we see virtually none of .this.

That was a time jump that skipped over a lot of things, but I don't remember many complaints about that.

So why get bent out of shape over the jump between seasons?

Apples and oranges

In "Days Gone Bye" the time jump SERVED the story because Rick experienced it. Typically in a sci-fi, fantasy, or just a story with a generally different world, we need a "fish out of water" hero that the audience can relate to.

Rick was in a coma and he was literally thrust into this world that he has no understanding of. He didn't ease into it like others and at that point, he was the least fit for survival. This serves as great foundation for the character that Rick can become and for the audience to watch him develop as a survivor

Pretend for a second you didn't know anything about zombies going into the Walking Dead. Now, here's Rick. He doesn't have any knowledge of zombies either (zombie lore doesn't exist in the show). When he's learning about bites turning people and what happened to society, he's basically acting as a mouthpiece for the viewers and answering any questions viewers might have. THAT'S why the time jump in the first season wasn't complained about. It served the story instead of acting as a hinderance

Now, let's look at the time jump from season 2 to 3. Rick is unrecognizable from Season 2. Daryl is the equivalent of action figure (I actually like Daryl. These are the words of others). Andrea is unrecognizable. Glenn's arc in Season 2 of going from a boy to a man is redacted so he can have the same arc again. Carol is not the same character from Season 2. Carl hates Lori. Hershel isn't the same character. I'm sure people could make many arguments about how these arcs make sense since they were traveling and everything, but watching a character like Rick go from unsure dictator who killed his best friend for the good of the group to cold-blooded murderer who has no qualms about killing anymore is jarring and would've been much more satisfying if we saw it unfold. This is one of many reasons that it bothers me when people say "Walking Dead is about the characters!" It's not. If it was, the characters would all have well-rounded and consistent arcs and wouldn't simply just be...there with basic human emotions. Nobody is complex except arguably Carl and he was hated in Seasons 1 and 2, and about half of the fans still hated him in Season 3. Another reason this show isn't about the characters is that it's very clear when plot takes precedence over them. The comics were plot-driven as well. I won't deny that. The plot never betrayed the characters, though. In the show, we get Rick not shooting the Governor, Andrea staying in Woodbury through the most contrived means, characters not speaking up when they need to (for example, Maggie not telling Andrea she was nearly raped, which could've made Andrea decide to kill the Governor), the Governor not dying when being under the constant threat of death, and I could go on but I'll stop there.

The biggest argument I've heard on the time jump from Seasons 3-4 (also going to add the characters changed AGAIN) going is that "nothing exciting happened in the time jump so it was ok to skip." That's not the point. Breaking Bad made an episode about buying a car wash and it was very solid, humorous, and it had a bit of drama with Jesse's subplot. If anyone can honestly tell me that the writers couldn't make a fantastic season based on the way Season 3 ended, then the writers are awful, which isn't the case because they've made good episodes before. It might've been a bit more risky than doing it this season's way, but frankly, I think the Walking Dead should take more risks

And if anyone wants to reply to me, don't bother making the argument that they're necessary because of Chandler Riggs. It will fall on deaf ears. Also, don't make the argument about weather making it necessary because I've gone through the beats of that argument too many times

[shrike]

Perhaps they could have made a whole season out of the time jump between season 3 and season 4. Season 4 could have been season 5?

[JesusMonroe]

Perhaps they could have made a whole season out of the time jump between season 3 and season 4. Season 4 could have been season 5?

Sure.

Or eight episodes of the time jump.

Or 4 episodes of the time jump.

Just. Show. What. Happened

[Deadpelican]

Apples and oranges

In "Days Gone Bye" the time jump SERVED the story because Rick experienced it. Typically in a sci-fi, fantasy, or just a story with a generally different world, we need a "fish out of water" hero that the audience can relate to.

Rick was in a coma and he was literally thrust into this world that he has no understanding of. He didn't ease into it like others and at that point, he was the least fit for survival. This serves as great foundation for the character that Rick can become and for the audience to watch him develop as a survivor

Pretend for a second you didn't know anything about zombies going into the Walking Dead. Now, here's Rick. He doesn't have any knowledge of zombies either (zombie lore doesn't exist in the show). When he's learning about bites turning people and what happened to society, he's basically acting as a mouthpiece for the viewers and answering any questions viewers might have. THAT'S why the time jump in the first season wasn't complained about. It served the story instead of acting as a hinderance

Now, let's look at the time jump from season 2 to 3. Rick is unrecognizable from Season 2. Daryl is the equivalent of action figure (I actually like Daryl. These are the words of others). Andrea is unrecognizable. Glenn's arc in Season 2 of going from a boy to a man is redacted so he can have the same arc again. Carol is not the same character from Season 2. Carl hates Lori. Hershel isn't the same character. I'm sure people could make many arguments about how these arcs make sense since they were traveling and everything, but watching a character like Rick go from unsure dictator who killed his best friend for the good of the group to cold-blooded murderer who has no qualms about killing anymore is jarring and would've been much more satisfying if we saw it unfold. This is one of many reasons that it bothers me when people say "Walking Dead is about the characters!" It's not. If it was, the characters would all have well-rounded and consistent arcs and wouldn't simply just be...there with basic human emotions. Nobody is complex except arguably Carl and he was hated in Seasons 1 and 2, and about half of the fans still hated him in Season 3. Another reason this show isn't about the characters is that it's very clear when plot takes precedence over them. The comics were plot-driven as well. I won't deny that. The plot never betrayed the characters, though. In the show, we get Rick not shooting the Governor, Andrea staying in Woodbury through the most contrived means, characters not speaking up when they need to (for example, Maggie not telling Andrea she was nearly raped, which could've made Andrea decide to kill the Governor), the Governor not dying when being under the constant threat of death, and I could go on but I'll stop there.

The biggest argument I've heard on the time jump from Seasons 3-4 (also going to add the characters changed AGAIN) going is that "nothing exciting happened in the time jump so it was ok to skip." That's not the point. Breaking Bad made an episode about buying a car wash and it was very solid, humorous, and it had a bit of drama with Jesse's subplot. If anyone can honestly tell me that the writers couldn't make a fantastic season based on the way Season 3 ended, then the writers are awful, which isn't the case because they've made good episodes before. It might've been a bit more risky than doing it this season's way, but frankly, I think the Walking Dead should take more risks

And if anyone wants to reply to me, don't bother making the argument that they're necessary because of Chandler Riggs. It will fall on deaf ears. Also, don't make the argument about weather making it necessary because I've gone through the beats of that argument too many times

Or maybe it was just a convenient way of skipping past a portion of the story that would be slow and tedious? Do you feel cheated somehow because we didn't have several episodes of planting crops, baling hay, occasional sex, and deer hunting?

[JesusMonroe]

Or maybe it was just a convenient way of skipping past a portion of the story that would be slow and tedious? Do you feel cheated somehow because we didn't have several episodes of planting crops, baling hay, occasional sex, and deer hunting?

Like I said in my original post

The biggest argument I've heard on the time jump from Seasons 3-4 (also going to add the characters changed AGAIN) going is that "nothing exciting happened in the time jump so it was ok to skip." That's not the point. Breaking Bad made an episode about buying a car wash and it was very solid, humorous, and it had a bit of drama with Jesse's subplot. If anyone can honestly tell me that the writers couldn't make a fantastic season based on the way Season 3 ended, then the writers are awful, which isn't the case because they've made good episodes before

The writers could've made Season 4 where Season 3 left off but not fill in the gap between Seasons 3 and 4. Basically, forget about our current Season 4 and make a season starting right from Season 3

But if you want to make the argument that this season is amazing and better than anything we could've gotten if the writers started from the end of Season 3, then I feel cheated because we missed several episodes of

-Woodbury assimilating into the prison group

-Conflicts that would've arisen from the assimilation of two groups that were opposing not even hours ago (it couldn't have been 100% peachy)

-Michonne's initial grief over Andrea's death

-Daryl's initial grief over Merle's death

-Forming of relationships (friendships and love. Don't just tell me Karen and Tyreese are in love with each other or tell me that Rick and Tyreese are friends. SHOW it)

-Rick reclaiming his humanity

-Carl's struggle to reclaim his

-Clearing the prison

-Making the prison a home and adding fortifications

-Development of more of the minor cast

[Bestrafen]

All of that was explained during the time skip. You just weren't watching the show at the time.

[gracie lou]

All of that was explained during the time skip. You just weren't watching the show at the time.

Well, I think that's Monroe's point. He wanted to watch it.

I can't remember what the cold open was for the first episode, but I wouldn't have minded a little flashback montage showing bits of what they did over the winter. They could have easily shown a group of them repairing the gate, clearing out the walkers, planting the garden, making the prison more homey, showing Rick putting away his gun (oh, wait, I hated that - just skip that one), Tyreese and Karen starting to make eyes at each other, etc.

I would have like to have seen that.

[JesusMonroe]

Well, I think that's Monroe's point. He wanted to watch it.

I can't remember what the cold open was for the first episode, but I wouldn't have minded a little flashback montage showing bits of what they did over the winter. They could have easily shown a group of them repairing the gate, clearing out the walkers, planting the garden, making the prison more homey, showing Rick putting away his gun (oh, wait, I hated that - just skip that one), Tyreese and Karen starting to make eyes at each other, etc.

I would have like to have seen that.

Exactly.

All of that was explained during the time skip. You just weren't watching the show at the time.

I was watching it. It was obviously explained. That doesn't mean we couldn't see it.

What would you rather have? Tyreese and Rick getting cornered by a herd, fighting their way out, and developing a great friendship, or telling us that they did that and it helped them become great friends? 99.999999999999999% of people prefer the former over the latter

[poohbear3026315]

Time jumps are a necessity due to fliming schedules and the hot summer weather in GA. You can complain til you turn blue in the face and that is not going to change.Could you imagine putting actors in winter wear with its 120 in the shade? That is how hot it can get with humidity in Senoia Ga where this is filmed. You'd have actors getting very ill pretty quick. So they use time jobs so they don't have to pretend its 30 degrees when its really 120. Robert Kirkman has said this himself in many interviews.

[JesusMonroe]

Time jumps are a necessity due to fliming schedules and the hot summer weather in GA. You can complain til you turn blue in the face and that is not going to change.Could you imagine putting actors in winter wear with its 120 in the shade? That is how hot it can get with humidity in Senoia Ga where this is filmed. You'd have actors getting very ill pretty quick. So they use time jobs so they don't have to pretend its 30 degrees when its really 120. Robert Kirkman has said this himself in many interviews.

Film at a certain time of the year and pretend it's another time of the year in the show. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? Nope

[DominusPisces]

Film at a certain time of the year and pretend it's another time of the year in the show. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? Nope

Impossible if you don't have a studio. Allot of this action would take place at the prison in the yard or in outside locations. Plus the studio has time and money budgeted for other projects.

Now.. I understand why there are time jumps, but honestly, I'm with Monroe. I would rather see the characters developed properly as I like character driven stories. I actually bought Rick from s2 to jumping to s3 Since we saw the transition, but with all of the changes from s3-4 They kind of hamfisted a romance with Ty and Karen ( But it apparently didn't matter since they killed her off by ep 2 )

Anything they film vs time jump eats away at what they could film and show for s4 though... personally what I think they should do is release a few webisodes to show us... Say Film a 15 minute short for Rick and Carl and break it up into 3 Webies showing him try to transition away from leader to farmer and say 10 min to show Karen and Ty... and another 15 - 25 min to show Assimilation and hominess added to the prison. That's what? 40 - 50 minutes of extra footage they can do near the end of shooting of a season or in the beginning of a new season and then release in 5 minute increments every interval during the 'time jump' between seasons?

Hell... get some sketchers and inkers to release a Time skip comic tailored for the show. People would buy it and maybe even get a kick out of a comic based on a TV show based on a comic.

[Jgreenwood]

Time jumps are a necessity due to fliming schedules and the hot summer weather in GA. You can complain til you turn blue in the face and that is not going to change.Could you imagine putting actors in winter wear with its 120 in the shade? That is how hot it can get with humidity in Senoia Ga where this is filmed. You'd have actors getting very ill pretty quick. So they use time jobs so they don't have to pretend its 30 degrees when its really 120. Robert Kirkman has said this himself in many interviews.

I realize this is probably hyperbole...but it doesn't get that hot here in GA. The record high in GA is 112 and that was back in 1983. It gets hot and humid here for sure, but never to that extent.

[Deadpelican]

Time jumps are a necessity due to fliming schedules and the hot summer weather in GA. You can complain til you turn blue in the face and that is not going to change.Could you imagine putting actors in winter wear with its 120 in the shade? That is how hot it can get with humidity in Senoia Ga where this is filmed. You'd have actors getting very ill pretty quick. So they use time jobs so they don't have to pretend its 30 degrees when its really 120. Robert Kirkman has said this himself in many interviews.

I agree completely and I've said pretty much the same thing. Plus the trees and the forests are all green and alive and the sweat can be seen running down actors' faces. Not sure how you pass that off as winter time.

I realize this is probably hyperbole...but it doesn't get that hot here in GA. The record high in GA is 112 and that was back in 1983. It gets hot and humid here for sure, but never to that extent.

I read where Andy Lincoln was talking about 90 percent humidity and 80- 90 degree weather. I maybe be off by a few degrees or percentages but not by much.

I live down South and I could see dressing people in winter clothes during summer possibly causing heat stroke.