#1
30 July 2013 - 07:50 PM
He is an antagonist to Rick and I can easily agree with this. As well as Rick is an antagonist to Negan. But what makes him a villain?
Let's get the facts:
- Rick's groups started the violence: they attacked Negan's group and killed several Saviors
- In return Negan killed just one member of Rick's group (Glenn) and a little bit later Dwight killed Abraham, but Negan can hardly be responsible for this deed as I doubt that it was Negan's order.
- Karl killed several Negan's men.
- Instead of punishing, Negan pardoned him.
- Spencer plotted against Rick
- Negan actually helped Rick to deal with this plot by killing Spencer
- In the last issue Rick again attacked Negan, killed two of his men and tried to kill Negan himself
- We don't know what happens next, but judging by the next covers Negan is going to pardon Rick again.
You still think Negan is a villain?
Can you think of any reasons why he is a villain except that the fact that he brutally killed Glenn? Rick and his group also did such things (e.g. when they killed Hunters).
Negan is a tyrant? But there is no democracy in Alexandria either and who is Rick if not a tyrant, ok perhaps not a tyrant but an authoritarian leader?
He is nothing like the Governor who came under prison's walls shouting "Kill'em all!". He didn't do any evil to Rick's group except what was done in response of Rick's unjustified attack on his people. So what else can you think of?
#2
30 July 2013 - 08:00 PM
-He has all of the communities under his control (Kingdom is debatable) in an INVOLUNTARY trade agreement. He's a thief
-He killed Andy, David, and Crystal and then sent Ethan to kill Gregory just to keep Hilltop afraid
-Rick didn't start it. He was threatened on the road by the Saviors. They said to give their stuff or they'd be killed
-Not only did he beat Glenn to death, he was laughing and cracking jokes while he did it
-He burns people's faces
-He stole drugs from a group that needed it so his men could get high
-If anybody else shot his men, he would've killed them. This is understandable but the reason he spared Carl was because he likes him
-He could've handed Spencer to Rick and let him decide what to do
Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?
#3
30 July 2013 - 08:03 PM
Just because Negan is SMARTER than the Governor, which leads him to keep more his subordinates ALIVE... does not make him any less evil. He's just evil in a more logical and conniving way.
#4
30 July 2013 - 09:01 PM
However I let him read comic 100 and his opinion changed which was odd but I think that Glenn's deaths influence people's judgement on Negan.
I think Negan can be considered a perv and this and that but the bottom line is that he has tried to keep peace with Rick and has pardoned him.
#5
30 July 2013 - 09:04 PM
#6
30 July 2013 - 09:07 PM
#7
30 July 2013 - 09:16 PM
A protagonist is the main character and the antagonist is the person conflicting with the main character. A villain implies evil but if the protagonist is evil, then the antagonist can be goodYour basically talking semantics - is Negan a Villain or antagonist? Is there a difference?
Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?
#8
30 July 2013 - 09:29 PM
A protagonist is the main character and the antagonist is the person conflicting with the main character. A villain implies evil but if the protagonist is evil, then the antagonist can be good
Yeah - I get it, I taught High School English, I know the difference.
I'm just saying that whether Negan is a "Villain" or not is completely subjective, although I'd be skeptical of someone who said that Negan is NOT EVIL. But are all Villains evil? Aren't some Villains driven by good intentions?
If you watch a cop movie - the hero protagonist is the cop and he's most likely good. The Antagonist is the criminal who's most likely "bad". If you watch a Mafia movie - the Protagonist is "bad" but does that automatically make the Protagonist "good"? I don't think so. What if the roles traditionally implied to be "good" are actually bad - like corrupt law enforcement officers or civil servants?
#9
30 July 2013 - 09:32 PM
I got confused because you were asking for the difference between the twoYeah - I get it, I taught High School English, I know the difference.
I'm just saying that whether Negan is a "Villain" or not is completely subjective, although I'd be skeptical of someone who said that Negan is NOT EVIL. But are all Villains evil? Aren't some Villains driven by good intentions?
If you watch a cop movie - the hero protagonist is the cop and he's most likely good. The Antagonist is the criminal who's most likely "bad". If you watch a Mafia movie - the Protagonist is "bad" but does that automatically make the Protagonist "good"? I don't think so. What if the roles traditionally implied to be "good" are actually bad - like corrupt law enforcement officers or civil servants?
I shouldn't have phrased mine like that. If the protagonist is bad, the antagonist CAN be good.
Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?
#10
30 July 2013 - 09:56 PM
I got confused because you were asking for the difference between the two
Right.... I was just trying to point out to the original poster of this thread that there's USUALLY not a big difference between main antagonist of a story and "villain" - since both are highly subjective in nature.
Most people understand the "villain" of a story to be the main antagonist and vice versa. The reason why we use the phrases 'protagonist' vs. 'antagonist' is to illustrate that the main character doesn't have to be good and the main source of conflict does not necessarily have to be evil.
For the Walking Dead - I think it's pretty obvious that The Governor and Negan or both villains. They are both main antagonists of the storyline, and both supremely evil. Whether or not you want to classify Rick as "good" or "heroic" is a more complicated debate.
What I'm getting at is that this stuff really depends on the person who's watching the movie or reading and interpreting the story. Two people may watch the same movie and differ on who they identify as the story's protagonist vs. antagonist. They also may differ on their interpretation of "evil" or "good" behavior of characters.I shouldn't have phrased mine like that. If the protagonist is bad, the antagonist CAN be good.
#11
30 July 2013 - 09:57 PM
Let's get the facts
-He has all of the communities under his control (Kingdom is debatable) in an INVOLUNTARY trade agreement. He's a thief
-He killed Andy, David, and Crystal and then sent Ethan to kill Gregory just to keep Hilltop afraid
-Rick didn't start it. He was threatened on the road by the Saviors. They said to give their stuff or they'd be killed
-Not only did he beat Glenn to death, he was laughing and cracking jokes while he did it
-He burns people's faces
-He stole drugs from a group that needed it so his men could get high
-If anybody else shot his men, he would've killed them. This is understandable but the reason he spared Carl was because he likes him
-He could've handed Spencer to Rick and let him decide what to do
- In return Negan killed just one member of Rick's group (Glenn) and a little bit later Dwight killed Abraham, but Negan can hardly be responsible for this deed as I doubt that it was Negan's order.
Lets not for get that Abe was killed before Glenn.
"I'M TAINTED MEAT"
#12
30 July 2013 - 10:12 PM
#13
31 July 2013 - 12:32 AM
Negan walks all over the Hilltop because Gregory is such a pussy. Negan killed 3 hilltop people and got Gregory stabbed...Rick tried to kill Negan for killing a guy he didn't even like. It seems if you have balls, Negan keeps his distance.
This makes Negan more of a bully than an actual villain, because if you fight back he'll back off.
XBOX One Gamertag: ROFbaggingU. Blackops 3 Zombies mode: easter egg hunter.
#14
31 July 2013 - 12:38 AM
Edited for thread link
Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?
#15
31 July 2013 - 02:34 AM
#16
31 July 2013 - 01:59 PM
#17
03 August 2013 - 04:14 PM
I'm surprised why everybody consider Negan a villain.
He is an antagonist to Rick and I can easily agree with this. As well as Rick is an antagonist to Negan. But what makes him a villain?
Let's get the facts:
- Rick's groups started the violence: they attacked Negan's group and killed several Saviors
- In return Negan killed just one member of Rick's group (Glenn) and a little bit later Dwight killed Abraham, but Negan can hardly be responsible for this deed as I doubt that it was Negan's order.
- Karl killed several Negan's men.
- Instead of punishing, Negan pardoned him.
- Spencer plotted against Rick
- Negan actually helped Rick to deal with this plot by killing Spencer
- In the last issue Rick again attacked Negan, killed two of his men and tried to kill Negan himself
- We don't know what happens next, but judging by the next covers Negan is going to pardon Rick again.
You still think Negan is a villain?
Can you think of any reasons why he is a villain except that the fact that he brutally killed Glenn? Rick and his group also did such things (e.g. when they killed Hunters).
Negan is a tyrant? But there is no democracy in Alexandria either and who is Rick if not a tyrant, ok perhaps not a tyrant but an authoritarian leader?
He is nothing like the Governor who came under prison's walls shouting "Kill'em all!". He didn't do any evil to Rick's group except what was done in response of Rick's unjustified attack on his people. So what else can you think of?
you read my mind! Neggan has given Rick a lot of slack I think! I can't wait to see what happens in the next issue! If Negan lets him off again he should have his own men kill him then someone else take over!
#18
03 August 2013 - 04:18 PM
That is a true assesment of Neggan! He does take joy in killing but given the type of world they live in he has given Rick and his group a lot of slack!Negan takes pleasure in brutally murdering innocent people. You can argue that he does what he feels he has to for survival, but when someone gets that much joy out of killing innocent people in such brutal fashion, it doesn't get much worse than that. Rick and others have killed for survival too, but they didn't get off on it like Negan seems to. I think something was seriously wrong with this guy before the outbreak even began.
#19
03 August 2013 - 04:20 PM
#20
03 August 2013 - 04:27 PM
The didn't take joy in slaughtering the Hunters ? seemed that way to me just saying......Negan takes pleasure in brutally murdering innocent people. You can argue that he does what he feels he has to for survival, but when someone gets that much joy out of killing innocent people in such brutal fashion, it doesn't get much worse than that. Rick and others have killed for survival too, but they didn't get off on it like Negan seems to. I think something was seriously wrong with this guy before the outbreak even began.
"Yeah, let's fuck this dog."
#21
03 August 2013 - 04:30 PM
They weren't smiling and laughing doing it. Rick even said to Dale's body that he was horrified with what he did. Everyone but Andrea actually expressed regret about itThe didn't take joy in slaughtering the Hunters ? seemed that way to me just saying......
Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?
#22
03 August 2013 - 05:04 PM
The look on the faces of these people sure seems like they are enjoying the revenge to me. Except for Gabe who is clearly shocked.They weren't smiling and laughing doing it. Rick even said to Dale's body that he was horrified with what he did. Everyone but Andrea actually expressed regret about it
"Yeah, let's fuck this dog."
#23
03 August 2013 - 05:13 PM
#24
03 August 2013 - 08:15 PM
Believing lack of abuse=kindness is a sign of Stockholm Syndrome. People are more susceptible to that than seems to be commonly understood.
Personally, I don't see the times he's held back on vengeful killing showing any sort of genuine care for another human being, but more indicative that he doesn't care all that much about his own men......he seems to see everyone as his personal slaves, and anyone who refuses to play that role is killed, or cowed into place by violence, and examples made of others.
Yeah, he's a villian.
#25
04 August 2013 - 01:36 AM
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