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Andrea , Who Will Forgive?

Andrea Michonne Guv

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#26
I R Biter

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Oh, if they can roll with Merle being around, they'll take Andrea in. It's just different now......there's less patience for bullshit and higher levels of suspicion. Rick wouldn't have let her stay at all, let alone give her a car if he didn't still see her as part of the crew. He just knows she doesn't see the big picture right now, and he can't completely trust her judgment.
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#27
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I figure Michonne is just going to keep being Michonne.......wary, brutally honest, but not spiteful or petty. I get the impression she just wants Andrea to sharpen up.
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#28
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This, and this.



I don't think Andrea has done anything to require forgiveness, even from Michonne. Why should Andrea have let Michonne kill a man Andrea cared about and who had done nothing wrong as far as she knew at the time? She did the smart thing and didn't shoot anybody. But the relationship between the two women may or may not be salvageable - we'll see.

And I think that after she listened to and believed what her old group had to say, their attitude mellowed, especially Rick's. Carol was glad to see her right off the bat and Hershel was obviously ready to welcome her back. So if she survives and wants to go back, I think they'll accept her.


I mean realistically I don't think shes done anything that requires forgiveness either, but I've had friends like Michonne who seem to automatically assume the worst in circumstances when you've actually done nothing wrong. To get back in their good graces usually you have to treat them with kid gloves with something like "I'm sorry if you felt blah blah blah, but my intention was...etc," repeat ad nauseam. So there is still forgiveness involved even though Andrea isn't to blame. Reminds me of a quote I heard and I can't remember who said it but: "Feelings are always about something, and that "something" is not itself a feeling. It's an idea, a perception of a situation. And because ideas can be wrong, the feelings that are based on them can also be wrong."

I honestly can't get a good read off Michonne's view on Andrea, it seems to change by the episode. First shes her BFF4Lyfe wanting to drag her along even sick, then she's willing to leave her at the drop of a hat in Woodbury, not to mention go back to Woodbury but not to rescue her but "to hurt her." And to top it all off now in this past episode she actually seemed concerned about Andrea when Merle suggested they ambush the meeting site. I really want to believe this is just inconsistent writing to blame here because I don't want to think Michonne is really that immature as I really do want to like her more.
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#29
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I've noticed a few people bring up the comment Michonne made about knowing her actions in Woodbury would hurt Andrea......I actually rewatched, to see if I missed something......I didn't see any indication that she took action because it would hurt Andrea......Michonne was going to do what she was going to do, regardless......I took it as her communicating that seeing the truth is more important than avoiding pain, which is what Andrea was trying to do--run away from reality. It's an understandable human thing to do, but it can get people killed.

I figure in the ZA, not abandoning someone counts as forgiveness, there doesn't have to be a show of it. I don't see Michonne as abandoning Andrea in Woodbury, I see it as her acting according to her own intuition. Andrea chose to stay. Since then, Michonne hasn't been hostile, just direct and honest.

Edited by I R Biter, 16 March 2013 - 05:33 PM.

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#30
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+1 JR. We all gave Rick somewhat of a pass during S2 with the whole blindness to Shane's devilish ways. Andrea is having to go through a similar situation. She's over it now and trying to find a way out. It would be sweet irony if she were to kill TG as Rick did Shane. Maybe Milton could blow his zombie brains out once he's turned. I hope Andrea survives and becomes an important member of the group again.
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#31
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She chose a warm bed over sticking with the woman who kept her alive all winter! She didn't trust Michonne's instincts. She betrayed Michonne.


That is your opinion, to which you are, of course, entitled.

In my opinion, Andrea made the logical choice based on the evidence she had at the time. She chose what appeared to be a life of comparative safety with other people over what would probably be a short, lonely and hellish life on the road. Andrea had already lived that life and it almost killed her. Staying in Woodbury without Michonne was obviously not an easy decision but it was the sensible one. We already knew what Michonne knew and more abut Woodbury and the Governor, but Andrea did not.

Michonne offered Andrea, a lawyer, nothing but her instincts about Woodbury when she actually had some evidence. What, was it a test or something? Michonne's whole attitude has been more like that of a jilted teenager than a grown woman.
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#32
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I agree with Nareen.

On a side note, I hope they forgive Andrea, and I hope she doesn't die.
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#33
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Well, if she takes the time to explain why it took her so long (the Governor's... huge dick)...

Then maybe Merle can break her off a piece? Let's be honest here, with her history, it's definitely not out of the question. To boot, I bet it'd give her sensations she's never felt before, with his crabs and VD and whatnot.
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#34
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Then maybe Merle can break her off a piece? Let's be honest here, with her history, it's definitely not out of the question.


Yeah, she had sex with two people in a year, the slut- that's more partners than some people get in their lives ( not that there's anything wrong with voluntary celibacy).
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#35
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Actually, much as I like Andrea, I don't want to see her rejoin the group- I just can't see a place for her. I'd like to see a finale where the prison gets overrun by a herd, Woodbury almost goes down, the Governor gets eaten, Andrea takes over, and the group pushes on, with Andrea gone for Season 4.
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#36
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I think Rick and Andrea would make a good couple. Just not right after she comes back to ricks group. So support him first. Sleep with him later :P


Don't make me start shipping. Wait, this would be a NON ship :zombiethumbsup:
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#37
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I've noticed a few people bring up the comment Michonne made about knowing her actions in Woodbury would hurt Andrea......I actually rewatched, to see if I missed something......I didn't see any indication that she took action because it would hurt Andrea......Michonne was going to do what she was going to do, regardless......I took it as her communicating that seeing the truth is more important than avoiding pain, which is what Andrea was trying to do--run away from reality. It's an understandable human thing to do, but it can get people killed.

I figure in the ZA, not abandoning someone counts as forgiveness, there doesn't have to be a show of it. I don't see Michonne as abandoning Andrea in Woodbury, I see it as her acting according to her own intuition. Andrea chose to stay. Since then, Michonne hasn't been hostile, just direct and honest.


I just rewatched that scene and I knew there was something I wasn't getting. You did! Thanks and +1 for you, too.
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#38
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Don't make me start shipping. Wait, this would be a NON ship :zombiethumbsup:


Be nice :P
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#39
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Yeah, she had sex with two people in a year, the slut- that's more partners than some people get in their lives ( not that there's anything wrong with voluntary celibacy).

I wasn't trying to say she was a slut as much as question her particular taste in men. The only difference between Merle and her other two suitors is that everyone knows Merle is a crazy, anti-social type fellow, and he is not in a position of power. Laurie Holden herself has questioned Andrea's taste in men on twitter, so I know that I am not the only one seeing it.
Spoiler

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#40
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I wasn't trying to say she was a slut as much as question her particular taste in men. The only difference between Merle and her other two suitors is that everyone knows Merle is a crazy, anti-social type fellow, and he is not in a position of power. Laurie Holden herself has questioned Andrea's taste in men on twitter, so I know that I am not the only one seeing it.

Spoiler


I'm an Andrea supporter and think she has a shitty taste in men. She's made questionable decisions too. But what's a character if they have no flaws or mistakes .

Would've loved to see her and dale together, or at least have dale be alive now :(

She's definetly not a slut though
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#41
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I've noticed a few people bring up the comment Michonne made about knowing her actions in Woodbury would hurt Andrea......I actually rewatched, to see if I missed something......I didn't see any indication that she took action because it would hurt Andrea......Michonne was going to do what she was going to do, regardless......I took it as her communicating that seeing the truth is more important than avoiding pain, which is what Andrea was trying to do--run away from reality. It's an understandable human thing to do, but it can get people killed.


You prompted me to rewatch the scene myself. I do think that regardless of Andrea being in Woodbury Michonne would have wanted revenge on the Gov, as it was her motivation for going back. However, I think in that moment of her speaking to Andrea at the prison she did misrepresent her motivations and mean "I knew it would hurt you" in a spiteful way. Michonne felt hurt by Andrea and wanted to rub salt into her wounds. The context it was said in suggests spite as well. "You chose a warm bed over a friend. That's why I went back to Woodbury, exposed him for what he is. I knew that it would hurt you." In that context there is no other way to read it than she was more angry that Andrea wanted to stay with the Gov than she was about the Gov trying to kill her. I was surprised she said it like that though, even the look on Andrea's after was incredulous. I do believe that the writers could have intended for it to be interpreted like you said but if so it was a horrible writing choice to have Michonne phrase it that way. This would definitely be a case of what was said and what was meant being two different things if you are correct about it.

Although even if Michonne did mean it in a "I knew finding the truth would hurt you but I'm doing it as a friend" way its inconsistent with how she acted in Woodbury. If exposing the Gov in order to have Andrea know the truth was her goal then she would have said something to her when Andrea walked in the room. Of course it was a bit of a stand off at that point but instead of telling Andrea the truth Michonne ran off like a suspect in the night leaving the Gov to feed Andrea lies. She wasn't concerned with Andrea in the least when she returned to Woodbury, if so then why leave her there at the Gov's mercy when Michonne knows how he is? The Gov was in an extremely fragile mental state and could have very well taken out on Andrea.

I figure in the ZA, not abandoning someone counts as forgiveness, there doesn't have to be a show of it. I don't see Michonne as abandoning Andrea in Woodbury, I see it as her acting according to her own intuition. Andrea chose to stay. Since then, Michonne hasn't been hostile, just direct and honest.


Honestly I don't think anyone abandoned anyone else either. Michonne wanted to leave, Andrea wanted to stay. However I do think Michonne is turning it into an abandonment issue. "You chose a warm bed over a friend" "You were under his spell from the moment you saw him." Her words make it seem like she feels Andrea DID abandon her for the Gov, which wasn't the case at all. They weren't even involved until after Michonne left, if not for Merle spilling the tea Michonne would have never known they were sleeping together. But that's why I keep saying IF it is a case of abandonment Michonne abandoned Andrea, as Michonne was the one who gave Andrea the ultimatum. Michonne is also the one who left Andrea and if the Gov had not sent Merle to kill her probably wouldn't have ever went back to Woodbury.
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#42
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You prompted me to rewatch the scene myself. I do think that regardless of Andrea being in Woodbury Michonne would have wanted revenge on the Gov, as it was her motivation for going back. However, I think in that moment of her speaking to Andrea at the prison she did misrepresent her motivations and mean "I knew it would hurt you" in a spiteful way. Michonne felt hurt by Andrea and wanted to rub salt into her wounds. The context it was said in suggests spite as well. "You chose a warm bed over a friend. That's why I went back to Woodbury, exposed him for what he is. I knew that it would hurt you." In that context there is no other way to read it than she was more angry that Andrea wanted to stay with the Gov than she was about the Gov trying to kill her. I was surprised she said it like that though, even the look on Andrea's after was incredulous. I do believe that the writers could have intended for it to be interpreted like you said but if so it was a horrible writing choice to have Michonne phrase it that way. This would definitely be a case of what was said and what was meant being two different things if you are correct about it.

Although even if Michonne did mean it in a "I knew finding the truth would hurt you but I'm doing it as a friend" way its inconsistent with how she acted in Woodbury. If exposing the Gov in order to have Andrea know the truth was her goal then she would have said something to her when Andrea walked in the room. Of course it was a bit of a stand off at that point but instead of telling Andrea the truth Michonne ran off like a suspect in the night leaving the Gov to feed Andrea lies. She wasn't concerned with Andrea in the least when she returned to Woodbury, if so then why leave her there at the Gov's mercy when Michonne knows how he is? The Gov was in an extremely fragile mental state and could have very well taken out on Andrea.


While I agree with most of what you say, I don't consider Michonne's line to Andrea bad writing. I considered it as Michonne lashing out at Andrea because she did feel betrayed by Andrea. We did not get to see enough of their relationship in the time jump but I believe that we were supposed to believe that they were incredibly close. That they had relied on only each other for 7 - 8 months, which had to include trusting each other with their very lives. I am sure that they relied on Michonne's instincts greatly. So, while her comment was harsh and immature, I attributed it more to being hurt by someone, so you say something hurtful back.
Have you ever said something mean to someone after they have hurt you, that you regretted later? I know I have.

Honestly I don't think anyone abandoned anyone else either. Michonne wanted to leave, Andrea wanted to stay. However I do think Michonne is turning it into an abandonment issue. "You chose a warm bed over a friend" "You were under his spell from the moment you saw him." Her words make it seem like she feels Andrea DID abandon her for the Gov, which wasn't the case at all. They weren't even involved until after Michonne left, if not for Merle spilling the tea Michonne would have never known they were sleeping together. But that's why I keep saying IF it is a case of abandonment Michonne abandoned Andrea, as Michonne was the one who gave Andrea the ultimatum. Michonne is also the one who left Andrea and if the Gov had not sent Merle to kill her probably wouldn't have ever went back to Woodbury.


Again, back to my previous comments, with the relationship they had for the past months, I can see how she may feel that way. Given the circumstances, with Michonne's lack of communication, it is mainly Michonne's fault that they parted ways, the way they did.
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#43
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While I agree with most of what you say, I don't consider Michonne's line to Andrea bad writing. I considered it as Michonne lashing out at Andrea because she did feel betrayed by Andrea. We did not get to see enough of their relationship in the time jump but I believe that we were supposed to believe that they were incredibly close. That they had relied on only each other for 7 - 8 months, which had to include trusting each other with their very lives. I am sure that they relied on Michonne's instincts greatly. So, while her comment was harsh and immature, I attributed it more to being hurt by someone, so you say something hurtful back.
Have you ever said something mean to someone after they have hurt you, that you regretted later? I know I have.


I meant I only considered it bad writing if the writer's intent was for the line to come off as "tough love friendship" rather than spiteful or immature. They totally missed the mark if it was tough love but I agree that it was Michonne lashing out at Andrea to rub salt into wounds so I personally don't think its bad writing in this case. However knowing the writers this season it wouldn't surprised me. I was more speaking in the hypothetical chance they did mean to convey tough love without any spiteful tones in her speech.

Again, back to my previous comments, with the relationship they had for the past months, I can see how she may feel that way. Given the circumstances, with Michonne's lack of communication, it is mainly Michonne's fault that they parted ways, the way they did.


It's not like I think Michonne's feelings were invalid and I can see why she felt that way too. However it brings be back to my previous post where I used the quote that pretty much says even though the way a person feels is valid it doesn't mean that their interpretation of the situation they are basing their feelings on is.

This may be me reaching a bit far into Michonne's unrevealed character however I've been wondering for a while if her reactions to Andrea are from pre-ZA experiences? We don't know much about her, especially in pre-ZA, but I could see her being the type not to have many girlfriends because she can't really relate to women well or should I say the more stereotypical aspects of our gender roles. Or she has had a bad experience with friends/family that have left her high and dry for a love interest. Either one could have left her feeling abandoned and isolated, making it hard for her to trust others, especially other women. Andrea might have been the first woman in a while who she trusted as a friend and was hurt when Andrea did not meet her expectations. This would make sense to me as I thought it was a bit weird Michonne chose to focus on Andrea's romantic involvement with the Gov over anything else. It would also explain why Michonne was so willing to walk away without really giving Andrea a chance by explaining her concerns about the Gov because based on previous experience she would have thought it would have been futile. Of course this is all purely my own speculation but it would fill in the pieces as to why two really close friends broke apart so easily and why Michonne was spiteful about Andrea the Gov's relationship.
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#44
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Be nice :P


I will totally be nice. I will not read any threads or discussion of such. :zombietongueout:

But then I don't read ship thread. And horror of horrors, Laurie Holden, just now on The Talking Dead, talked about how Andrea chose the wrong partner 'this season'. There's hope for you!

I want to see her in the group so when she doesn't answer a direct question twice again we can see what happens. But, like I said, she can't escape this season without a visible price having been paid. I know people assume I want her hurt (I don't), that I don't like her (I don't) and that I'm being mean (I'm not). I just think it's the logical payoff of what's been going on. And, sadly, the end of this episode has confirmed my theory. I'm gut wrenched about it.
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#45
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I will totally be nice. I will not read any threads or discussion of such. :zombietongueout:

But then I don't read ship thread. And horror of horrors, Laurie Holden, just now on The Talking Dead, talked about how Andrea chose the wrong partner 'this season'. There's hope for you!

I want to see her in the group so when she doesn't answer a direct question twice again we can see what happens. But, like I said, she can't escape this season without a visible price having been paid. I know people assume I want her hurt (I don't), that I don't like her (I don't) and that I'm being mean (I'm not). I just think it's the logical payoff of what's been going on. And, sadly, the end of this episode has confirmed my theory. I'm gut wrenched about it.


Oh no don't worry I agree with you. And I think your very respectful and insightful with all of the posts of yours ive seen :)
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#46
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I don't think Rick's group will have anything to "forgive" after Andrea is tortured by TG for trying to warn them, so if she wants to go back, they'll take her back with open arms. She'll have the scars to prove where her final loyalties are.

I don't see her staying in Woodbury either. I think she'll be too traumatized by what is happening in the torture chamber. Staying in Woodbury would be a constant reminder of what she suffered and how everyone there was too stupid or spineless to question TG or try to help her.

I also think she'll have to be put back together both physically and emotionally and won't be ready to jump into a relationship with anyone.
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#47
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While we ponder if the group will forgive Andrea, what about Andrea forgiving the group? At the end of season 2 they left her for dead. Of course, they didn't know she wasn't dead but then again, Andrea didn't know a lot of things in Season 3 either. Clearly, she has moved on from that incident and put her life on the line for Rick's group.

I hope, provided she survives, she will come back to the group and they will welcome her.
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#48
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Everyone in the group knew the score. Get away from the horde if you can, meet up if you're still alive. It wasn't specifically shown that there was a plan, but everyone else knew that folks would probably go back to the highway and regroup. When everyone but Andrea showed up, it was assumed she didn't make it and the group only had a certain amount of time to move on before they are being dumb risking the herd overtaking their position again. Andrea is an adult, she either makes it or doesn't. You don't endanger the children taking the whole group back not that mess, or send anyone on a suicide mission to rescue an adult woman who, if she was still alive, had to be smart enough to leave that particular area. You move on, take care of the ones you have left, keep an eye out for her, and hope what you think happened didn't. I have no reason to believe that Andrea hasn't already forgiven them, if she ever felt they did anything wrong.
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#49
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Everyone in the group knew the score. Get away from the horde if you can, meet up if you're still alive. It wasn't specifically shown that there was a plan, but everyone else knew that folks would probably go back to the highway and regroup. When everyone but Andrea showed up, it was assumed she didn't make it and the group only had a certain amount of time to move on before they are being dumb risking the herd overtaking their position again. Andrea is an adult, she either makes it or doesn't. You don't endanger the children taking the whole group back not that mess, or send anyone on a suicide mission to rescue an adult woman who, if she was still alive, had to be smart enough to leave that particular area. You move on, take care of the ones you have left, keep an eye out for her, and hope what you think happened didn't. I have no reason to believe that Andrea hasn't already forgiven them, if she ever felt they did anything wrong.


It is interesting that both Andrea and the group had their own unique perspectives about what happened. From the group's perspective, and based on the information they had at the time, she was a goner in Season 2. From Andrea's perspective, and based on the information she had at the time, the governor seemed ok (at least for a time) in Season 3.
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#50
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I do like how they made TG a layered, complex, yet ultimately sick character. As hard as everyone has been on Andrea, including myself, for her taste in men, TG hid that side rather well. It also makes him more dangerous, if not more evil, than a man who kills his children because he thinks God told him to. TG obviously has the self awareness to know that he needs to be deceptive to be allowed to continue sating his crazy urges that involve chains and speculums. He knows that what he is doing is not acceptable to (most) others.
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