[Deadringer]

Good episode, the only thing that put me off was the music near the end. Seemed a bit cheesy I thought.
Lots of good suspense - next weeks looks great

[Deadpelican]

I think that you're filling in blanks for the writers. The Governor wants to attack the prison because the writers have designated him the villain of the series, and there isn't much more to it than that. There's little to no in-story reason for it. And, if the Governor is so weak, then why is he so much more successful than Rick? The Governor has managed to accomplish a hell of a lot more than Rick while facing the same odds.

I don't see the need for an elaborate explanation for the governor's choices/ actions because the M.O. for men like the governor is fairly standard.

He's paranoid and feels threatened by outsiders and/ or anyone who will not submit to him. He will attempt to wipe out anyone who is a perceived threat. And "perceived threat" is pretty much everyone because men such as the governor are not rational.

[OneMeatball]

Spies on the prison.. they would have seen the guns being unloaded...

Seems to me that the grounds around the prison are full of walkers. Seems unlikely that unseen spies are hanging around 24/7 with binoculars. Especially when the prison has a lookout tower where they seem to be pretty vigilant about keeping an eye on the surroundings. They would notice the spies fighting off walkers.

And by the time Rick got back to the prison with the guns it would probably have been dark since the whole last episode seems to have occured in one day. Also if I recall correctly the guns were loaded into bags or otherwise wrapped up, and its unlikely that Rick, Carl and Michonne would take them out of the bags before they got them safely inside the prison buildings.

[Vulture Lives]

I don't see the need for an elaborate explanation for the governor's choices/ actions because the M.O. for men like the governor is fairly standard.

He will attempt to wipe out anyone who is a perceived threat. And "perceived threat" is pretty much everyone because men such as the governor are not rational.

So, in other words... he's the designated bad guy. Compelling stuff.

[Deadpelican]

Seems to me that the grounds around the prison are full of walkers. Seems unlikely that unseen spies are hanging around 24/7 with binoculars. Especially when the prison has a lookout tower where they seem to be pretty vigilant about keeping an eye on the surroundings. They would notice the spies fighting off walkers.

And by the time Rick got back to the prison with the guns it would probably have been dark since the whole last episode seems to have occured in one day. Also if I recall correctly the guns were loaded into bags or otherwise wrapped up, and its unlikely that Rick, Carl and Michonne would take them out of the bags before they got them safely inside the prison buildings.

I'm guessing that Andrea mentioned the guns to him.

There's obviously been some interaction behind the scenes that we didn't get to see.

We know Andrea set the meeting up so it's likely that she went to the prison and saw the guns or Rick may have even told her. No need to keep the weapons a "secret." I'd want the governor to know that I was armed and ready.

[OneMeatball]

I'm guessing that Andrea mentioned the guns to him.

There's obviously been some interaction behind the scenes that we didn't get to see.

We know Andrea set the meeting up so it's likely that she went to the prison and saw the guns or Rick may have even told her. No need to keep the weapons a "secret." I'd want the governor to know that I was armed and ready.

I guess that makes sense, because Andrea had to arrange the meeting somehow. An unshown visit to the prison makes sense to me. Although it makes me dislike Andrea even more if she's reporting back to the Governor what she saw. But it makes sense if she's trying to dissuade the Governor from war, to let him know it won't be easy for him.

[Darylrocks]

Hope you noticed Carol's new body length grey cardigan she was wearing now it is getting cold there! Wonder which of her bags she managed to pack that in to when she was on the road

Rick was fast to kill Tomas and I don't blame him. Even left the hiker to die. Now in front of the Gov who caused major issues...lets him call the shots? Mmm..it is a bit confusing to be honest. I understand in a TV show sense he can't really just blast the Gov there.Arrow on the Doorpost sounds like a threat message being sent, so maybe they should have had it sent to the prison as a ransom or something. "Michonne or GTFO" Rick wasn't sure if others were there though, can only be the real cause he didn't do it.

Oh yes, also...noticed Carl has had a haircut. In Suicide King I noticed a shot where Carl had shorter hair - then it was long again, through from Home - Clear. Now it is short again. Thought that kind of interesting in an editing/filming way.

I noticed Carl's hair too. Have seen it a couple of times this season.

[Zen_Master]

how did the Gov know that Rick brought a bunch of guns and ammo back from his trip? did i miss something...?

[Deadpelican]

how did the Gov know that Rick brought a bunch of guns and ammo back from his trip? did i miss something...?

They didn't say, but here's some random guesses, most likely to least likely

1). Andrea was at the prison again and arranged the meeting. Saw the weapons and told the governor that they've got a large arsenal and that the governor has them out manned- but not necessarily out-gunned.

2). Governor's people have been keeping an eye on the place. The saw the car leave, and they saw it come back many hours later. They may have seen them unloading. Or the governor may not have known for sure what it was in the car, but just put it out there to see how Rick would react.

3). (I doubt that this is the case) Merle told him. This is highly unlikely IMO, but it's a theory that's being floated in this forum.

Again, these are just random guesses and if you tell me one or all of them can't possibly be true, you are probably right.

[OneMeatball]

They didn't say, but here's some random guesses, most likely to least likely

1). Andrea was at the prison again and arranged the meeting. Saw the weapons and told the governor that they've got a large arsenal and that the governor has them out manned- but not necessarily out-gunned.

2). Governor's people have been keeping an eye on the place. The saw the car leave, and they saw it come back many hours later. They may have seen them unloading. Or the governor may not have known for sure what it was in the car, but just put it out there to see how Rick would react.

3). (I doubt that this is the case) Merle told him. This is highly unlikely IMO, but it's a theory that's being floated in this forum.

Again, these are just random guesses and if you tell me one or all of them can't possibly be true, you are probably right.

Well you left out my first guess, that The Governor got the information from Morgan somehow. Perhaps his spies followed Rick to King City and discovered Morgan there themselves, captured him and took him back to Woodbury. But I think the Andrea theory is most likely.

[I R Biter]

The exchange with Rick, the Guv, and Andrea made me think of the "dicks/pussies/assholes" metaphor from Team America......

(to be clear, I'm not being sexist, it's about one's approach, not one's gender)

I just thought that was funny.

[Deadpelican]

Well you left out my first guess, that The Governor got the information from Morgan somehow. Perhaps his spies followed Rick to King City and discovered Morgan there themselves, captured him and took him back to Woodbury. But I think the Andrea theory is most likely.

Forgot about the Morgan theory. Yeah, it's possible.

Who knows?

Rick didn't seem surprised that the governor knew, and it looks like Andrea had set the whole thing up. We also know that Andrea told guv about the baby.

That was my logic

[OneMeatball]

If they kill off Andrea on the TV show I won't be sad. She is an idiot. In that scene where she asks what happened to Maggie, I think I saw a flash of jealousy. Like it took THAT to make her feel betrayed. Hell hath no fury. That may have been the last straw for her and the Guv.

[I R Biter]

I don't think that was jealousy....I took it as disgust. Her personality doesn't seem like the type to make any sort of excuse for that. Being dismissed by the Guv seemed to hit her very deep, as well, and that also fits with her character. Perhaps she will stop underestimating what a scumbag he is now.

[Judari]

YES. Thank you.

Action is great, but too much action hurts the characters developments. This season has felt like 13 hour long Three's Company episode. If everyone had just sat down and talked from the very beginning a lot of this shit could've been avoided.

You don't know how much I have said that to myself this entire season.

Hershel continues to be my fave. I love how he doesn't see two teams, he sees people in a conflict. I'm glad Rick sought out his advice at the end and I'm glad that even Hershel isn't perfect. Yes, he would think about giving Michonne away to save his daughters. Obviously as a last resort, and he would probably think of other ways, but if it came down to that he'd do it. He's not perfect. No one on the show is perfect (well, except Daryl) and I really love that.

Hershel continues to surprise me. He has a pretty stereotypical role of being "old wisdom" in the group but he gives it a whole different dimension and I never find myself thinking he's too cliche. How he related to both Milton and Andrea this episode I enjoyed watching.

I love how they were just like two kids in a playground calling each other names because deep down they have no idea why they're supposed to dislike each other. They just know that "my dad says I'm not supposed to talk to you because my dad doesn't like your dad" and that's it. But then they talk, and they like each other. I really loved that.

I really like how you just described that. It was my favorite scene this episode and you summed it up perfectly. It was also nice to see Daryl connect to someone on a type of buddy-buddy level. We haven't really seen that as all his other relationships have some sort of tension or authority issue laced into it.

1. The Merle scenes. Still don't trust him, never will. If I was Glenn I would've just let him go on his own. He's obviously trying to manipulate everyone and failing miserably. I didn't buy that he wanted to kill the Governor to protect Daryl. Something's up with Merle. I HATED his scene with Michonne, I don't know if she was playing him, but really? A few episodes ago he was trying to kill her, and he only didn't because she got away. When she told him "you're not a killer"... ugh. What about Carlugio (or whatever the hell his name was)? I'm never going to forgive Merle for all the terrible things he's done and I wish the writers would stop trying to excuse his behavior. I like his humor, he gets the best lines, but as a human being I find him despicable.

I honestly think they threw that scene together so they could have an actual plot line of whats happening back at the prison. This episode was just filler building up to the final showdown so there wasn't really all that much they could show which is why his scene seemed off. Although maybe I have to rewatch the scene as I didn't get the same "Merle is up to something vibe" as everyone else. I thought him wanting to protect his brother was normal. That has been one of his main priorities. But the fact that this all came up after Daryl had already left and not before is what was off to me.

2. If Andrea set up the meeting between the Governor and Rick, why did she act surprised that the Governor was there?

I think she probably thought he would wait for her before he went into meet Rick. But she soon discovered her presence was a nonfactor lol.

3. So done with The Governor. I really hope he dies at the end of the season. The execution of this character failed in every way and at this point the fact that he's still alive is a huge suspension of disbelief. Are you telling me Rick can casually shoot two guys in a bar without batting an eyelash, but he doesn't put a bullet between the Governor's eyes the minute he sees him? The Governor stands right in front of the prison for like a whole 10 minutes and nobody can shoot him? Andrea can't kill him? And on top of that, he doesn't even WANT the prison? He just wants Michonne? Come on. What made the Governor so great in the comics is that he lived that long because he was unreachable. No one could get near him. But this Governor is so invincible he could probably sneak into the prison and take a nap with Carol and then just walk back to Woodbury without anyone giving him a scratch. Kill the bitch already.

Agreed with the general execution of his character, it could have been done better. As far as Rick not shooting him, I'm wondering if that is because Rick is still kinda wandering the borders of crazytown a bit himself. It wasn't but 3 episodes ago the prison shoot out happened and he seemingly "snapped out of it". He is still likely dealing with the same issues as before but just put a better outward facing lid on it. I think old Rick would have abandoned the prison instead of risking everyone's lives for it. They abandoned the farm and it would be a lot easier to clear out those walkers than to take on a town. I also think given the chance old Rick would have tried to take the Gov out as well. If this isn't a side effect of Rick's crazytown, I don't know what else could be the reason. Its like he is trying to he beat the Gov at his own game so to speak right now.

As far as just wanting Michonne, I believe that was a tactic to throw off solidarity. He knows that would mess with Rick's head, and it did. The Gov also said once he returned to Woodbury that he planned to kill them all anyway so that kind of affirmed it for me that it was more of an intimidation tactic than him being willing to call it off for Michonne.

But whatever, we saw Laurie Holden naked, so I guess it was Lauren Cohan's turn. Now they just need to realize girls watch the show too and give us naked Andrew Lincoln.

Or Daryl... or Tyreese.... or even Martinez. Heck, Rick could have another hallucination about Shane again and Jon Bernthal can make a birthday suit cameo... I'm not being picky here so throw the female populous a bone writers!

[Things&Stuff]

Because they were trying to convince Andrea that the Governor is actually a bad man, but they conveniently left out a fairly crucial piece of information.

And what would the danger be? That Andrea would blab to the Governor about something he already knows that he did?

Because they were trying to convince Andrea that the Governor is actually a bad man, but they conveniently left out a fairly crucial piece of information.

And what would the danger be? That Andrea would blab to the Governor about something he already knows that he did?

Maybe they don't trust her because she should already know what everyone else sees as plain as their face? They shouldn't have to tell her he's a scumbag, she should have seen it for herself. And, if she has feelings for him and they tell her something like that, she could side with him even more firmly. Police see that happen in domestic disputes all the time.

[Things&Stuff]

No Hershel had offered Andrea a ride back with them and said that she was apart of their family. He extended the offer but I agree with Andrea's decision to stay for the time being, she is of better use to them in Woodbury if she can turn Tyreese around on the Gov and try to foil his plans from the inside. I don't think anyone was really depending on Andrea to kill him anyway lol.

Sorry, that comment was for events that happened up to but not including this episode. And since she's supposed to be so tough, why couldn't she have done it? And since she did, doesn't that put her more squarely on the Gov's side? And as I put in another post since this one - maybe Andrea would have turned on Maggie and the group for saying that. If she didn't believe them she wouldn't be any different than all the women who turn on a cop for coming to her help in a domestic violence dispute. This is on Andrea for not having seen the Governor for what he truly is, I think.

The Michonne offer I believe was to mess with Rick's head and it did work, but I would be surprised if he actually went through with it.

You nailed it! And if he does then either she or him will have to die

Who's death is Andrea responsible for? The thing that started it all was Merle kidnapping Maggie and Glenn. Andrea had nothing to do with that. Even if Andrea had of went off with Michonne that doesn't mean that Maggie and Glenn still wouldn't have been kidnapped and the big shoot out would have probably still happened. The funny thing about it is contrary to any influence or power Andrea thought she may have had in the situation or with the Gov, it really doesn't change the outcome of anything regardless of what side she may have been on. Like Merle, the Gov knows her usefulness and could take her or leave her at this point. I think this past episode was telling for her because she realized just how little she matters in influencing the situation. If anything its Merle and Michonne (by killing Penny) that aggravated the situation between the two groups, Andrea was in the dark the whole time that was happening so I'm not sure how you figure she needs to pay a price.

If she had listened to Michonne, trusted her, none of the Woodbury people would have died. Can you imagine that Michonne vs Merle & the gang scene would have had a much better outcome. They'd have gotten away. I don't like Couda Shoulda Woulda but we are talking about supposing Andrea blames herself at some point. And that doesn't count what happened to Glenn and Maggie or even Axel and the future casualties in this coming war. She's kind of like backpack guy. She put her life into the hands of some random dude because he looked good, smelled good and said the right things. Yes, she doesn't know all he did but she's also a little late coming to her senses. But unlike backpack guy she's not paying with her life but the casualties around her.

I'm not an Andrea fan but I'm not a hater, either. I like to accept the characters for where they are coming from and think about how they might act in the future. But I have to admit, her ego is pretty hard for me to understand. She is the most unlikeable of all and that includes Lori for me. She goes on feelings so maybe she thinks those count as accomplishments? I dunno.

[DirtyDeeJay]

I'd buy Herschel a drink <insert pun about drinking until we're legless here/>

[Zen_Master]

i want payback for the Gov, Merle, and the others executing those Nat'l Guard soldiers. those murders have to be exposed.

[Nareen]

Like Clear, this episode was a bit different and I liked it very much.

I thought that the interaction between Rick and the Governor was quite interesting and suspenseful. Even though we all knew that neither was going to be killed at this point in the story, we didn’t know if Rick would crack or either man would do something stupid. The gun under the table gun was just the writers screwing with us, I suspect, and ratcheting up the tension.

IMO, the meeting was about the Governor seeing if this crazy guy Rick would buckle, and when that didn’t work he enjoyed himself torturing Rick with head games, trying to put him off balance, mess him up, maybe trying to get him to pull his weapon so TG could shoot him. TG is an egomaniacal sadist who thinks he’s smarter than everyone else, when really he is just meaner. He’s a pretty stereotypical villain and I gather he’s even more so in the comic. I don’t envy David Morrissey who is doing his best.

I think Andrea made the choice to go back to Woodbury not to be with the Governor, but to try to help the people of Woodbury and the prison group in some way. She knows what TG is now and that she isn’t safe in the town. Maybe she has or will develop another plan. We don’t know when Andrea told TG about Rick, Lori and Shane but it may well have been when she thought she’d never see them again. Everybody (except Michonne) talks about the people they have known. TG may have seemed simply to be taking an interest in his girlfriend’s past life.

I reiterate my opinion that Andrea has done nothing wrong but make some poor choices, which people do. She is not responsible for anyone’s deaths. That is on Merle and the Governor, and Rick for that matter. Someone from Woodbury would probably have encountered people from the prison anyway, since both groups were scavenging the same area. Merle chose to kidnap Maggie and Glenn, the Governor chose to keep and torture them. Michonne led Rick and company to assault the prison without even trying negotiation (not that it would have worked). Andrea has been naïve and blind, but not criminal. Not having read the comics, I have no attachment to Michonne so I don’t blame Andrea for refusing to give up what appeared to be safety and a good life with good people, not to mention an attractive man, for a hard and probably short life on the road – all this based on a hunch with no actual facts provided.

I loved the interaction between Milton and Hershel, and how Hershel turned aside the request to look at his stump with a joke. I like Milton as a character, a guy without physical or leadership skills to survive but with plenty of intelligence. In this world of people who will do anything to stay alive, he fits in. I think he really believed in Woodbury at one time, though he always seemed wary of TG.

The pissing contest between Daryl and Martinez was funny in an eye-rolling way, and also sad because they will be trying to kill one another soon enough and know it. Martinez must be on the kill list anyway since he had dialogue. I don’t care because he’s just a murderer like Merle, though not as colourful.

I think Merle was wrong about sneaking in to kill TG, not because they shouldn’t kill him but because doing an end run around Rick and the others was a good way to get them killed. But Merle is probably pretty scared and a bit panicky right now. I loved how the prison group took him down. He’s another who would make a sexual assault on his lover (by someone else) all about himself, as indicated by his remarks to Glenn.

The writers are going to do a lot more if I am to care about Tyreese and his group. He seems like a decent guy but we haven’t seen enough of him for me to care. Is this character is another example of the series depending on the comics to fill in the gaps, like with Michonne?

So Rick has a moral dilemma now, but he should realize that the Governor is a psycho, with no intention of ever letting anyone who is not under his control live in his vicinity. Now TG is also crazed by the desire for vengeance against Michonne. There’s no good way out.

I think TG knew about the guns because he has people watching the prison. I cringed every time Rick, Glenn, Hershel etc. were standing outside in the open behind nothing but some fencing.

I also cringed over the Maggie and Glenn sex scene; isn't abandoning your post on watch, even for sex, dereliction of duty of some kind? It was certainly foolish.

[Dr Cank]

Spies on the prison.. they would have seen the guns being unloaded...

I have noticed many comments about how The Guv Knows about the guns. I had not personnaly not thought about the andrea theory and I think it is clever. However, I agree with Manaof3Littles there are spies on the prison. Either they saw the guns beeing unloaded or They saw something being unloaded and since Rick wnet on the run himself it had to be important. Guns would be a logical guess for the Guv to make and Rick's reaction could confirm the gun assumption.

I think we know who they spy is. Shupert (aka black guy with the Bow)

In the begining of the season he was always with the Guv. Now post attack on Woodbury we never see him (except for the attack on the prison). He knows how to handle himself and the Guv trusts his loyalty, perfect spy. Unless you guys have been seeing him around woodbury and i just missed him. Infact I thought the only reason Martinez was getting so much play was because shupert was "occupied".

[BenRai2k]

I also cringed over the Maggie and Glenn sex scene; isn't abandoning your post on watch, even for sex, dereliction of duty of some kind? It was certainly foolish.

Honestly found that such a time waste. I thought their convo was a nice enough make up talk - then with them having sex instantly at the cost of duty just made me feel like they are sex crazed animals and made up for sex sake.Unless she ends up pregnent ad they wanted to show them being careless, I would rather they gave Carol/Herschel a short scene talking about something since Carol said nothing all episode.

[Luv2readt.]

I only give this episode a C. The writers have given Rick too much screen time lately. I got a little bored in Clear between the Morgan/Rick long conversation, but it was off set by the Carl/Michonne interaction. Finally someone told Carl to stay when he was told to stay and Carl actually stayed.
Rick-Governor-boring
Daryl-Martinez- okay I recognized that they were bonding over zombie kills but it was filler.
Loved Hershel-Milton-Andrea
It was good to see Glenn and Maggie reunited, but I did not want to see them unite while they were on guard duty.
Merle-Michonne interaction-always watchable, like a train wreck, you are going to watch it.
Andrea-Milton interesting
I would have liked to see Beth blasting the side of the shelter that Maggie/Glenn snuck in. That would have been entertaining.
Missed seeing Carol,
Seriously Team Rick could stand to be gussied up a bit when they go out visiting.

[DirtyDeeJay]

Did anyone else think it was weird that none of walkers in the prison yard battered an eyelid at the fact a fresh meal was driving past on a loud ass motorbike?!

[Blasko_Z]

Daryl-Martinez- okay I recognized that they were bonding over zombie kills but it was filler.

You and I have two differing views on what constitutes "filler". To me, if it explores a character's motivations and provides some insight to the current issue (how the non-Governor Woodburians truly are), then it is quite the opposite of filler.