The Walking Dead Season 3 Ep 13 - Arrow On The Doorpost

rick the governor the walking dead

The Walking Dead Season 3 Episode 9 - Arrow on the Door (218 )

What did you think of this weeks show?

  1. Excellent (80 [36.70%] - )

    36.70%

  2. Good- Some Critiques (95 [43.58%] - )

    43.58%

  3. Fair - Not What I Expected (33 [15.14%] - )

    15.14%

  4. Poor (10 [4.59%] - )

    4.59%

#276
StrollingDead

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Mixed feelings about this argument.

Always like Andrea, but, Lord, the writers have done their best to destroy that. They seem determined to flunk the Bechdel Movie Test:

1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a man


Like the confrontation between Lori and Andrea in Season 2:
"Hey what do girls argue about?"
"Who has some guy?"
"Oh, right"

Or the even earlier confrontation, where Andrea is pissed about Daryl giving the gun they found to Lori while the boys say nobody who's untrained should have one. After she makes her cmment about Lori getting to have a gun, Lori springs into a big rant about how everybody's been putting down Rick, at which Andrea apologises and gives the gun back, which made absolutely zero sense.

This season, she's been walking through Woodbury in a daze- we should have seen her, her being a civil rights lawyer and all
a ) questioning the Gov's power (that's the civil rights part)
b )getting ahold of some of that power (that's the lawyer part)
(and if she wants some sack time with the Gov, nothing wrong with a little R&R.)

They tried it with her speech and the Gov. making her his deputy, but everyone rightly ignored her- why shouldn't they? What has she ever done for them?

The perfect time would have been in the first attack, when the Governor ran and hid- they could have shown Andrea stepping up right there, and building some respect for her fighting skills.

Not too make this post too long.

I want to get into the whole feminist thing, of course, but nobody's gonna end up reading this thread with the next episode due out... see ya Thursday (broadcast time in Taiwan.)
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#277
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How do you figure she put herself in a leadership role? Who was she leading? If anything the show has shown us how little authority or influence Andrea really has. Of course she was given a bit of false authority and leadership by the Gov but that was not real and was taken away from her as quickly as it was given.


I'd like to see one example of Andrea taking someone at their word without that 'okaaaay' that's better suited to Carl's character. I think she assumes. Like when she assumed Dale was going to talk about her having had sex with Shane in Season 2. And when she approached the prison Rick asked her twice if she was alone. If no one is the boss of her then she's a boss, right? I'm starting to like Andrea less and less as I keep giving you examples of why my opinion is valid even if it's not the same as yours.



Like I mentioned before she will have her fair share of self-inflicted guilt.


My contention about her accounting is based on seeing Morgan, Rick, and the Governor's mental trials. They've not lost limbs but they are physically marked. And yes, I know the Governor lost an eye but the cheese sliding started before that. Whether she's put herself forward intentionally or not, she's got a leadership personality. Leadership includes responsibility.

Payment and retribution whether it's deserved or not is common in epic legends. Maybe this is from left field but since I'm knee deep in a couple of those right now, I can see parallels to TWD.

And I really liked Andrea much more than before I started really examining her character. =/ Now I can't watch I Ain't a Judas. I know we will disagree, but she wanted to be treated like family by the Group while making them equal to Woodbury in her consideration. I'm not saying that she should have done as Rick asked, but I'd like to have seen her give him more credit. And telling the Governor that they were in such dire circumstances was, to me, a huge betrayal.

Like I said, I know we will not agree.
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#278
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I'm glad the show has/had the writers it does. Because if some of the posters here had their way, All the characters would be making perfect decisions every step of the way, nobody would ever get hurt or killed, there'd be no drama, and it'd be the most boring zombie show in the history of moving pictures.

I'm not a fan of Andrea, but I see where this story arc is taking her, and it's wonderful. It's going to truly make for some great television, of this I am sure.


I agree. I don't care for her always questioning everyone else and then expecting her choices to be taken at face value. That's how the character is written and I find it equally irritating in a real life person. She also makes decisions based on emotion which is another irritation for me. If I don't like Andrea then Laurie Holden is doing her job and I really do like the actress.

I see her as the last 'innocent' of the group. She's the only one still clinging to the hope that some of the pre ZA world can be saved.
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#279
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Mixed feelings about this argument.

Always like Andrea, but, Lord, the writers have done their best to destroy that. They seem determined to flunk the Bechdel Movie Test:



Like the confrontation between Lori and Andrea in Season 2:
"Hey what do girls argue about?"
"Who has some guy?"
"Oh, right"


There was a bit more to it than that. That was two women with an entirely different world view arguing about it. I thought it was very well done.

Or the even earlier confrontation, where Andrea is pissed about Daryl giving the gun they found to Lori while the boys say nobody who's untrained should have one. After she makes her cmment about Lori getting to have a gun, Lori springs into a big rant about how everybody's been putting down Rick, at which Andrea apologises and gives the gun back, which made absolutely zero sense.


You mean when Lori told the group that their expectations were unrealistically hard on Rick? And she gave Andrea the gun because Andrea was acting like a spoiled child. Lori helped her realize that she wasn't kept from having a gun because no one trusted her judgment but because she needed training before she could walk around with a loaded pistol. (Never understood why such a highly educated woman could take a weapon from her father and not get at least one training class to go with it. Father was ridiculously naive to give it to her w/o instruction also. Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine. Gun ownership has responsibilities, damn it!)

This season, she's been walking through Woodbury in a daze- we should have seen her, her being a civil rights lawyer and all
a ) questioning the Gov's power (that's the civil rights part)
b )getting ahold of some of that power (that's the lawyer part)
(and if she wants some sack time with the Gov, nothing wrong with a little R&R.)

They tried it with her speech and the Gov. making her his deputy, but everyone rightly ignored her- why shouldn't they? What has she ever done for them?


The Governor is manipulating her for his own purposes. Once he no longer needs her to get rid of the Group, how long do you think she's going to live?

The perfect time would have been in the first attack, when the Governor ran and hid- they could have shown Andrea stepping up right there, and building some respect for her fighting skills.

Not too make this post too long.

I want to get into the whole feminist thing, of course, but nobody's gonna end up reading this thread with the next episode due out... see ya Thursday (broadcast time in Taiwan.)


I think the 'feminist thing' would need it's own topic and many many many fire extinquishers :smiley-confused002:
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#280
SteadyEddie

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If I don't like Andrea then Laurie Holden is doing her job and I really do like the actress.


THIS.
I think her character is written that way, and I know plenty of women (and some men) who are like that. Stubborn, proud, they act before they think, or they act out of emotion rather than logic. People in real life make stupid decisions every day. I've made my share. Why should a character on TV be any different?
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#281
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THIS.
I think her character is written that way, and I know plenty of women (and some men) who are like that. Stubborn, proud, they act before they think, or they act out of emotion rather than logic. People in real life make stupid decisions every day. I've made my share. Why should a character on TV be any different?


Because a character with that type of personality isn't suited for survival type situations and would long since have gotten themselves killed in an apocalypse... especially if she was out on the road for 8 months.
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#282
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Not necessarily.

Because a character with that type of personality isn't suited for survival type situations and would long since have gotten themselves killed in an apocalypse... especially if she was out on the road for 8 months.


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#283
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Not necessarily.


It's possible someone like that could survive but it's ridiculously unlikely.
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#284
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She wouldn't have survived the first day without Michonne saving her.
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#285
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I'd like to see one example of Andrea taking someone at their word without that 'okaaaay' that's better suited to Carl's character. I think she assumes. Like when she assumed Dale was going to talk about her having had sex with Shane in Season 2. And when she approached the prison Rick asked her twice if she was alone. If no one is the boss of her then she's a boss, right? I'm starting to like Andrea less and less as I keep giving you examples of why my opinion is valid even if it's not the same as yours.


Well of course everyone will have their own opinions. S2 was full of everyone disagreeing with each other and Rick over what to do about the farm, Shane and Randall. Also Dale did warn people, including Andrea about Shane. However, when its mattered most Andrea hasn't questioned her friends. I think the fact that she did not question what the group said about the Gov speaks volumes. She took their word over what she knew about him in a heartbeat. If it was truly in her character to assume and question she wouldn't have believed them so easily or at all unless she physically saw the Gov doing wrong. I mean its your opinion and it's a valid opinion based on your interpretations of her character/scenes, I just think you are misinterpreting them.


My contention about her accounting is based on seeing Morgan, Rick, and the Governor's mental trials. They've not lost limbs but they are physically marked. And yes, I know the Governor lost an eye but the cheese sliding started before that. Whether she's put herself forward intentionally or not, she's got a leadership personality. Leadership includes responsibility.

Payment and retribution whether it's deserved or not is common in epic legends. Maybe this is from left field but since I'm knee deep in a couple of those right now, I can see parallels to TWD.

And I really liked Andrea much more than before I started really examining her character. =/ Now I can't watch I Ain't a Judas. I know we will disagree, but she wanted to be treated like family by the Group while making them equal to Woodbury in her consideration. I'm not saying that she should have done as Rick asked, but I'd like to have seen her give him more credit. And telling the Governor that they were in such dire circumstances was, to me, a huge betrayal.

Like I said, I know we will not agree.


I am familiar with a few epic legends as well as Shakespearean tragedies so I do know that more often than not, people not directly responsible for actions but involved in some way do get punished for pure association or even just being on the sidelines. I don't think its right or fair, but it does happen and is a theme in those stories. If you are viewing TWD from that angle I can see now why you would think or want Andrea to pay some big price for her association with the Gov. It would seem to have more to do with that type of storytelling and less to do with if she deserves to be punished because she is actually responsible.

I would go into Andrea at the prison more but then we would be going in circles. I can see why you think the way you do but like I said before I just feel as its based on an incorrect interpretation of her character. Agree to disagree.
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#286
d2daybreak

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Well of course everyone will have their own opinions. S2 was full of everyone disagreeing with each other and Rick over what to do about the farm, Shane and Randall. Also Dale did warn people, including Andrea about Shane. However, when its mattered most Andrea hasn't questioned her friends. I think the fact that she did not question what the group said about the Gov speaks volumes. She took their word over what she knew about him in a heartbeat. If it was truly in her character to assume and question she wouldn't have believed them so easily or at all unless she physically saw the Gov doing wrong. I mean its your opinion and it's a valid opinion based on your interpretations of her character/scenes, I just think you are misinterpreting them.

I guess my problem is that Andrea took TG's word over what she knew about Michonne when he told her that Michonne was being disruptive when she killed the captive biters and pulled her sword on him. Andrea didn't go to Michonne and ask "What is going on?" or "Why did Michonne do it?" in a curious, investigative kind of why. No, Andrea approached Michonne in accusatory manner telling Michonne that she couldn't do that. In doing this, Andrea took TG's side over Michonne without ever hearing Michonne's side. I felt that after 8 months on the road and Michonne saving her life that Andrea owed it to her friend to at least hear her out.

I might have let that slide if Andrea hadn't done it again. When Andrea stumbled upon TG and Michonne after their fight, Andrea again spoke to Michonne in an accusatory fashion when she said, "What have you done?" Even though Andrea told TG that Michonne would not have pulled her sword on him unless she felt threatened, Andrea didn't approach ask Michonne "What happened?" a less accusatory question. Andrea immediately assumed the worst of Michonne, her friend, again.

These are two occasions when Andrea did question her friend (Michonne) and when it mattered the most. Now, to be fair to Andrea, Michonne didn't answer Andrea either time, but truthfully, I might not have either if Andrea accused me as if her mind was already made up like she did Michonne. Granted Michonne did not give Andrea any proof besides her word, but what proof did anyone in Rick's group give Andrea except their word. Rick had no proof that TG lied except his word. Maggie and Glenn gave no proof except their words. Merle said nothing to collaborate their stories. Andrea took their words because of what she saw--she saw TG trying to kill Daryl for herself. Without having seen for herself, I wonder is Andrea would have been any more accepting of their words than she was Michonne's. Initially, Andrea tried to defend TG by saying it was Merle who kidnapped and beat Glenn and Maggie. It wasn't until she was overwhelmed by their collective words that she started to see the light. And it was only after she started to cave that Michonne told her that TG tried to kill her. All Michonne had was her word and she waited until she saw that Andrea was receptive to it to offer up her evidence, her word.
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#287
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I personally suspect there's more than a fair share over here.


Yeah I suspect that as well, mainly because "writing" is just a very odd thing for viewers to criticize in a TV program. Saying this or that character did something dumb, or how something doesn't make sense... these are things I hear people talk about in conversations around the water cooler with regular folks.

They don't talk about how great or how bad the script is

I suspect that the people who complain about the writing are people who fancy themselves writers.
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#288
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I guess my problem is that Andrea took TG's word over what she knew about Michonne when he told her that Michonne was being disruptive when she killed the captive biters and pulled her sword on him. Andrea didn't go to Michonne and ask "What is going on?" or "Why did Michonne do it?" in a curious, investigative kind of why. No, Andrea approached Michonne in accusatory manner telling Michonne that she couldn't do that. In doing this, Andrea took TG's side over Michonne without ever hearing Michonne's side. I felt that after 8 months on the road and Michonne saving her life that Andrea owed it to her friend to at least hear her out.

I might have let that slide if Andrea hadn't done it again. When Andrea stumbled upon TG and Michonne after their fight, Andrea again spoke to Michonne in an accusatory fashion when she said, "What have you done?" Even though Andrea told TG that Michonne would not have pulled her sword on him unless she felt threatened, Andrea didn't approach ask Michonne "What happened?" a less accusatory question. Andrea immediately assumed the worst of Michonne, her friend, again.

These are two occasions when Andrea did question her friend (Michonne) and when it mattered the most. Now, to be fair to Andrea, Michonne didn't answer Andrea either time, but truthfully, I might not have either if Andrea accused me as if her mind was already made up like she did Michonne. Granted Michonne did not give Andrea any proof besides her word, but what proof did anyone in Rick's group give Andrea except their word. Rick had no proof that TG lied except his word. Maggie and Glenn gave no proof except their words. Merle said nothing to collaborate their stories. Andrea took their words because of what she saw--she saw TG trying to kill Daryl for herself. Without having seen for herself, I wonder is Andrea would have been any more accepting of their words than she was Michonne's. Initially, Andrea tried to defend TG by saying it was Merle who kidnapped and beat Glenn and Maggie. It wasn't until she was overwhelmed by their collective words that she started to see the light. And it was only after she started to cave that Michonne told her that TG tried to kill her. All Michonne had was her word and she waited until she saw that Andrea was receptive to it to offer up her evidence, her word.



I can definitely see where you are coming from with that. However I don't think Andrea questioned it as it was obvious as to why Michonne did it. S2 when the group found out about the barn walkers they killed them right away. The feeling of its not safe to keep walkers so close to you, even locked up would be a valid concern. So I don't think Andrea would need to ask why she would know from previous experience why someone would kill caged walkers.

She would also know from experience that killing those walkers would probably not go over well with who ever was keeping them. Hershel wanted the group to leave immediately in S2 for that. For all Andrea knew at that point those could have been loved ones kept in that cage.

It's not like Michonne saw them feed a live person to the caged walkers, they were simply in a cage. It didn't have any incriminating undertones at the farm so I don't think she would assume the worst of either Michonne or the Gov in this situation. I really don't think she was blaming Michonne here just telling her if they were going to be in Woodbury they needed to follow the rules and not stir up trouble.

Michonne did keep her own walkers but they were incapacitated and she rid herself of them at the first inconvenience.

As for the standoff, it didn't look good for Michonne. Michonne was going in for the final blow. Andrea's questioning of Michonne doesn't mean she thought she was wrong but as being the one in control at that time I would question the person about to kill the other person rather than the person clutching a dead child walker on the floor in hysterics. Not two scenes later was Andrea giving the Gov the same treatment of questioning which would have went on further had Milton not interrupted.

The key difference of believing the groups word over Michonne's initially was all Michonne had was suspicions. The group actually could say what the Gov did wrong. It's different saying "I think this person is bad based on suspicions which I am not going to fully sharw with you" and "I know this person is bad and here is a list of all the things he has done wrong..."
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#289
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I can definitely see where you are coming from with that. However I don't think Andrea questioned it as it was obvious as to why Michonne did it. S2 when the group found out about the barn walkers they killed them right away. The feeling of its not safe to keep walkers so close to you, even locked up would be a valid concern. So I don't think Andrea would need to ask why she would know from previous experience why someone would kill caged walkers.

She would also know from experience that killing those walkers would probably not go over well with who ever was keeping them. Hershel wanted the group to leave immediately in S2 for that. For all Andrea knew at that point those could have been loved ones kept in that cage.

It's not like Michonne saw them feed a live person to the caged walkers, they were simply in a cage. It didn't have any incriminating undertones at the farm so I don't think she would assume the worst of either Michonne or the Gov in this situation. I really don't think she was blaming Michonne here just telling her if they were going to be in Woodbury they needed to follow the rules and not stir up trouble.

Michonne did keep her own walkers but they were incapacitated and she rid herself of them at the first inconvenience.

As for the standoff, it didn't look good for Michonne. Michonne was going in for the final blow. Andrea's questioning of Michonne doesn't mean she thought she was wrong but as being the one in control at that time I would question the person about to kill the other person rather than the person clutching a dead child walker on the floor in hysterics. Not two scenes later was Andrea giving the Gov the same treatment of questioning which would have went on further had Milton not interrupted.

The key difference of believing the groups word over Michonne's initially was all Michonne had was suspicions. The group actually could say what the Gov did wrong. It's different saying "I think this person is bad based on suspicions which I am not going to fully sharw with you" and "I know this person is bad and here is a list of all the things he has done wrong..."

I am not saying that Andrea didn't have a right to question Michonne. My issue is with her accusatory tone. It is not what you say it is how you say it. If Andrea understood why Michonne killed the biters, she could have approached Michonne with an understanding tone. She didn't. She was accusatory and it was that accusatory tone that put her at odds with Michonne. Had Andrea approached Michonne differently Michonne might have explained or been more understanding of Andrea. Why should I or Michonne explain when you are already demonstrating that you are not listening?
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#290
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I am not saying that Andrea didn't have a right to question Michonne. My issue is with her accusatory tone. It is not what you say it is how you say it. If Andrea understood why Michonne killed the biters, she could have approached Michonne with an understanding tone. She didn't. She was accusatory and it was that accusatory tone that put her at odds with Michonne. Had Andrea approached Michonne differently Michonne might have explained or been more understanding of Andrea. Why should I or Michonne explain when you are already demonstrating that you are not listening?


I'm saying that the accusatory tone came from her being mad at Michonne for stirring the pot in Woodbury which could have gotten them kicked out. Just because she understood why she killed them doesn't mean she isn't mad because she killed them, effectively stirring the pot. I mean I have fights with my friends and while I may understand their reasoning for doing something doesn't mean I'm still not going to be mad and express my anger at them for doing it. I agree that had Andrea approached it differently with a level head things may have gone differently. Same thing, if Michonne would have took the time to explain herself and not assume things may have gone differently. There is fault for both of them here, neither is perfect in the situation. I wasn't trying to infer Andrea was perfect only that had Michonne told her something wrong the Gov had done or made a case for the suspicions she had, Andrea would have acknowledged them as she did with the group's word.
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#291
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Well of course everyone will have their own opinions. S2 was full of everyone disagreeing with each other and Rick over what to do about the farm, Shane and Randall. Also Dale did warn people, including Andrea about Shane. However, when its mattered most Andrea hasn't questioned her friends. I think the fact that she did not question what the group said about the Gov speaks volumes. She took their word over what she knew about him in a heartbeat. If it was truly in her character to assume and question she wouldn't have believed them so easily or at all unless she physically saw the Gov doing wrong. I mean its your opinion and it's a valid opinion based on your interpretations of her character/scenes, I just think you are misinterpreting them.


By this time she'd had enough suspicions that she believed them. Remember she didn't believe Michonne and Phillip had explained away the Guard supplies they captured, the 'attack' by the Group. Taken as a whole she was getting the picture.



I am familiar with a few epic legends as well as Shakespearean tragedies so I do know that more often than not, people not directly responsible for actions but involved in some way do get punished for pure association or even just being on the sidelines. I don't think its right or fair, but it does happen and is a theme in those stories. If you are viewing TWD from that angle I can see now why you would think or want Andrea to pay some big price for her association with the Gov. It would seem to have more to do with that type of storytelling and less to do with if she deserves to be punished because she is actually responsible.


It's a by product of the world they find themselves in. I do think there are stark direct consequences for actions like Backpack Guy but I also think there are unintended consequences. Her 'payment' does stem from her making emotional decisions and her desire to keep some semblance of the old world alive, much like Lori in Season 2. I guess it boils down to that I'm seeing it's Andrea's turn to come to grips. It will be interesting to see what changes in her character.

Oh, and the word visible, I know I used it with amputated limbs but Rick is intact but we can visibly see the changes in him this season. That was part of my poorly worded initial argument.


And I do have problems relating to other females on some issues. Never had one of those 'nice girls don't' convos from Mom as the women in my family always did what needed to be done to get food on the table and EFF the world. I normally play online games where I can be taken for a guy. I love the way they talk to each other. So me relating to Andrea is well, let's just say she's to SheShe for me. So yeah, I relate more to Lori than Andrea because I can see the sense in what she was doing. Making decisions based on emotions is a luxury and, in my personal experience, not usually worth the cost.
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#292
TheWalkerStalker

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Let's drink on it, basic play out...I wonder if Carl will ever show his dad the pic?
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