[DaRooster]

Do you think that Carl would like having another kid around in the prison? Or would he push him away because he was still too "soft"?

[Blasko_Z]

DaRooster, on 04 March 2013 - 09:52 PM, said:

Do you think that Carl would like having another kid around in the prison? Or would he push him away because he was still too "soft"?

Given Morgan's description of how he sheltered Duane, my money is on the second option. Hell, Carl seems to views most adults as "too soft".

[DaRooster]

Blasko_Z, on 04 March 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Hell, Carl seems to views most adults as "too soft".

True, I don't think he even see's his own father as tough anymore.

[Dr Cank]

No way.  Duane couldn't even shoot his own mom.  not being able to shoot your mom in ZA is equivilent to wetting the bed in real life.

Not to mention a possible Beth conflinct

[Soaked_Pancakes]

Who says Duane would've even ended up at the prison?
Provided circumstances were different, and Morgan and Duane decided to meet up with the prison group, I don't think Carl would initially like Duane much. Carl might antagonize him slightly at first, but as days progress and maybe Duane's true weaknesses show, maybe Carl would pity him and try to harden him.

[At Risk]

I don't think Duane was such a wuss.  I mean, when he was by himself he walked up behind Rick, thinking he was a walker, and clocked him with a blunt object.  That had to take at least a little guts.  Carl might be a bit impatient with him at first, but if Duane was willing to tough it out and learn how to fight, I could see them having the potential to be friends.

[stickoffury412]

Carl was once like Duane,  on season one there's no way he could've shot Lori. Or even held a gun. I think Carl would've liked the company of someone near his age regardless of his /her strength. And Dr cank. Very good point on the possible beth conflict.

[meesha1971]

stickoffury412, on 05 March 2013 - 12:11 AM, said:

Carl was once like Duane,  on season one there's no way he could've shot Lori. Or even held a gun. I think Carl would've liked the company of someone near his age regardless of his /her strength. And Dr cank. Very good point on the possible beth conflict.

I agree.  Carl and Duane had very different experiences, but while Carl may have become more hardened than Duane during that time, I don't think he would have held that against Duane.  I actually think Carl would have enjoyed having Duane around - someone close to his own age to talk to would be a plus.  I think Carl would probably enjoy being the "teacher" for a change as well - he always feels like he has to prove something to the adults, but with Duane, he would be the one with more experience.  Carl is a lot like Rick in that they both want to help people - even if they stop themselves at times because the risk involved is too great.  In that respect, I think Carl would have wanted to help Duane.

[stickoffury412]

Thank you meesha . Yeah I agree with all of your added points I think carl has had a way different experience than Duane has /had.  And I think the same would go for if Sophia was alive. I believe carl is hardened when it comes to protecting his group and killing zombies. Not when it comes to emotions.  Like his conversation with carol I believe in ep. 9 he also obviously cares for Judith . And has a crush on beth along with a friendship. So I think carl has grown a lot but I think he isn't really cold or shut off yet.

[Austin]

Carl is way too independent now, wanting to roam through a city by himself. In the episode before, when beth was singing, he was out patrolling alone. He also did the same thing in the tombs of the jail a couple episodes ago with Tyresse's group.

[stickoffury412]

Austin, on 05 March 2013 - 02:53 AM, said:

Carl is way too independent now, wanting to roam through a city by himself. In the episode before, when beth was singing, he was out patrolling alone. He also did the same thing in the tombs of the jail a couple episodes ago with Tyresse's group.

He was really only with michonne and rick in the city and he wasn't very trusting of michonne at the moment.  He ended up going with her. I think hes still struggling to find his own person which is very normal for someone his age (even though hes under very different circumstances)He wants to be a valued member of the group and do things on his own example on ep 2 when he got the med supplies by himself. We haven't really seen how he acts around someone his age since Sophia. I think he is trying to be independent but I don't think he's cold. He 's just trying to be seen as an asset and fit in with his group. He still shows signs of caring for others and kind of being a kid.

[ShaneWalsh]

I think it will take some time for Carl to like Duane but i guess carl and duane will be friends.

[Judari]

I honestly don't think Carl is as cold as he appears, it all just seems so "little-tough-guy-trying-to-prove-a-point" to me rather than a truly harden child that has had to grow up too soon. I agree with Meesha (+1 btw) in that I think Carl would have enjoyed having Duane around. I think Duane would have grounded him in that way and also just let him be a kid a little bit. He has no one to try to relate to now except adults which causes him to try to constantly prove himself.

Although Morgan's story is coming to an end I think they missed out on a potentially really good story line with Duane. A child in the group with no parents would have been a good angle, also it would help with Carl's development as well.

[mosher]

This presumes way too much about Duane. We know he already was killing zombies when Carl was still being sheltered. And we know he couldn't shoot his mom. Otherwise we know nothing. Dad tried to keep him safe, Well, Rick also tries to do the same with Carl. Carl has never listened, that wasn't strength. Carl's failure to listen has gotten people killed.

I think Duane would be quite hardened surviving with his dad, and not shooting his mom doesn't tell us much at all. They's get along like brothers by now- arguing hard, fighting, but being tight at the end of the day.

And please- neither has a chance with Beth. She is too old for them and no matter how tough they are she still sees a little boy, because he is.

[Dr Cank]

I don't know if they would be friend or not, but as to the quasi-matricide (mama shooting) there is one glaring difference between the two (granted this is congecture on Duane).

Carl has not only witnessed people he knows/respects kill loved ones:  Andrea - Amy,  Daryl  - Dale

Carl actually had previously shoot Reanimated Shane, a semi-father figure to him.

We are led to believe Morgan and Duane were mostly solo, (though the names on Morgan's walls makesit questionable if they did previously have a group), If Duane had not witnessed or performed that act of killing a reanimated loved one previously, one would expect a different way of thinking about the reanimated.  (e.g. if this was the first time Duane had seen a previously known walker, one can forgive/understand his hesitation).


Having said that I still contend not being able to shoot your mom in ZA is equivilent to wetting the bed in real life

[Valleyaggie]

I think you're all underestimating the appeal of finally having someone his own age. Carl hasn't been around another child since Sophia got lost in the Season 2 opener. Whatever their differences, I think Carl and Dwayne would have formed a bond simply by being the only two children. I think they would have become friends, close friends.

When I was in junior high, my parents became really good friends with another couple that had a daughter my age. We could not stand each other. However, after months of being forced to be together because our parents were hanging out, we became friends and eventually, best friends. Constant contact made us figure out a way to put aside our differences and make our friendship work. We grew apart after we got into high school but from 7th to 9th grade, we were very close.

Edited by Valleyaggie, 05 March 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Medic.]

Carl is only hard enough to shoot a dead Lori because a) his lack of action previously caused the death of someone he cared about (Dale). He probably is carrying around some guilt about Sophia (he didn't run off to find her with his dad.)

And putting down Lori before she reanimated was protecting baby Judith, and he obviously cared deeply for her.

[DeadZedHead]

Carl also had a winter to harden up before they even reached the prison.  Duane would have to Do the same to make it this far along.   They would both have mature quickly just to prevent the mistakes that got people killed.  They would both try to emulate their fathers who they look up to.  But being around another kid around the same age would give them someone with a similar perspective to talk to.   At first they would try to intimidate each other with how much they have matured but eventually one would crack a stupid kid joke and they would ease up.  Having two kids around might also change how the others see them.  I think the group has forgotten how young Carl still is.

[Judari]

Dr Cank, on 05 March 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

I don't know if they would be friend or not, but as to the quasi-matricide (mama shooting) there is one glaring difference between the two (granted this is congecture on Duane).

Carl has not only witnessed people he knows/respects kill loved ones:  Andrea - Amy,  Daryl  - Dale

Carl actually had previously shoot Reanimated Shane, a semi-father figure to him.

We are led to believe Morgan and Duane were mostly solo, (though the names on Morgan's walls makesit questionable if they did previously have a group), If Duane had not witnessed or performed that act of killing a reanimated loved one previously, one would expect a different way of thinking about the reanimated.  (e.g. if this was the first time Duane had seen a previously known walker, one can forgive/understand his hesitation).


Having said that I still contend not being able to shoot your mom in ZA is equivilent to wetting the bed in real life

Not to mention Carl put a bullet in Lori after she died so she wouldn't turn, even though she was technically just a dead body, that is not an easy thing to do. Although I do think regardless of how many walkers you've put down, its always going to be tough to kill a reanimated love one so I wouldn't equate it to wetting the bed. I actually only give real credit to Andrea for doing so. Even though Carl shot a reanimated Shane, he was going to attack Rick so the need for action there was more dire. While its still an emotionally traumatizing thing, I think you would be less likely to freeze as adrenaline would take over if someone else's life was on the line, especially your actual Dad vs. more of your big brother type but Shane wasn't actual blood. Can't say for sure or not if Morgan froze, we know Duane did, but we don't know if Morgan had a clear shot or even a gun with him at the time to take out his reanimated wife from a distance. He did call for Duane so perhaps he thought Duane would just run. Rick had to shoot Sophia because Carol was in no condition to and as far as Dale, no one there was technically family so I don't think Daryl shooting him counts. Hershel and his family don't count either has they didn't kill any of their love ones in the barn, that was mostly Shane. So it seems for the most part people have copped out when it has come to shooting a love one.

[TangoJ]

Judari, on 05 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Not to mention Carl put a bullet in Lori after she died so she wouldn't turn, even though she was technically just a dead body, that is not an easy thing to do. Although I do think regardless of how many walkers you've put down, its always going to be tough to kill a reanimated love one so I wouldn't equate it to wetting the bed. I actually only give real credit to Andrea for doing so. Even though Carl shot a reanimated Shane, he was going to attack Rick so the need for action there was more dire. While its still an emotionally traumatizing thing, I think you would be less likely to freeze as adrenaline would take over if someone else's life was on the line, especially your actual Dad vs. more of your big brother type but Shane wasn't actual blood. Can't say for sure or not if Morgan froze, we know Duane did, but we don't know if Morgan had a clear shot or even a gun with him at the time to take out his reanimated wife from a distance. He did call for Duane so perhaps he thought Duane would just run. Rick had to shoot Sophia because Carol was in no condition to and as far as Dale, no one there was technically family so I don't think Daryl shooting him counts. Hershel and his family don't count either has they didn't kill any of their love ones in the barn, that was mostly Shane. So it seems for the most part people have copped out when it has come to shooting a love one.

Nice post!  +1, btw.  For all Andrea's faults (and on the show, there are many!), I'd never quite realized that she IS the only one who willingly put down a loved one when adrenaline didn't demand it.  Her waiting until she had reanimated taught all of them the lesson that it's better to shoot them while they're still dead, or put them out of their misery if they have no hope of surviving injury.  Neither Duane nor Carl would have known that at the time.  Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by TangoJ, 05 March 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Dr Cank]

TangoJ, on 05 March 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Her waiting until she had reanimated taught all of them the lesson that it's better to shoot them while they're still dead, or put them out of their misery if they have no hope of surviving injury.

That scene was also for our (the viewers) benfit.  We like Andrea had the see the change happen up close and personal to someone we cared about.  CDC visit a side it is the main reason we know that nothing of the former person is left after reanimation.  It appears to be a recurring theme that people in the ZA have a hope that the loved one is still in there somewhere,(observed with Hershel, the Guv and I believe (to a lesser extent) Morgan/Duane.

My earlier point is that because we saw/felt this happen to amy we (and our group) know that it is better to save somone from reanimation (even if that saving comes with a bullet).  We also know if someone has turned, freeing them from the walker state is in itself an act of compasion and charity.

[Dr Cank]

^^ Judari,

I notice you are still equating the term "family" with blood relations.  By now in the series I believe we have seen what family truly is and blood lines have very little to do with it.  Rick and Daryl didn't search Hell and half of Georgia because there friends kid went missing, it was a piece of there family lost in the woods.  And it was a part of his family that rick shot coming out of that barn.  Bonds that tie are quick to form in tramatic situations.  Don't forget our group is just as much frontline soldiers as they are castaways.

So I stand by my original comment that Daryl killed family when he released Dale from his then unavoidable fate.

P.S. I understand "not being able to shoot your mom in ZA" is not equivilent "to wetting the bed in real life", it was an attempt at humor.  Oh, nothing kills humor more than explanation, well maybe literal interpretation, aye?

Edited by Dr Cank, 05 March 2013 - 08:33 PM.

[TangoJ]

Dr Cank, on 05 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

That scene was also for our (the viewers) benfit.  We like Andrea had the see the change happen up close and personal to someone we cared about.  CDC visit a side it is the main reason we know that nothing of the former person is left after reanimation.  It appears to be a recurring theme that people in the ZA have a hope that the loved one is still in there somewhere,(observed with Hershel, the Guv and I believe (to a lesser extent) Morgan/Duane.

My earlier point is that because we saw/felt this happen to amy we (and our group) know that it is better to save somone from reanimation (even if that saving comes with a bullet).  We also know if someone has turned, freeing them from the walker state is in itself an act of compasion and charity.

Absolutely!  It's probably unthinkable to put a bullet into the head of a dead loved one who looks peaceful, or to shoot them in the head while they are bleeding to death, until you've actually witnessed the horror of the reanimation.  That scene with Andrea and Amy illustrated it vividly for all of us.

Edited by TangoJ, 05 March 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[meesha1971]

Judari, on 05 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Not to mention Carl put a bullet in Lori after she died so she wouldn't turn, even though she was technically just a dead body, that is not an easy thing to do. Although I do think regardless of how many walkers you've put down, its always going to be tough to kill a reanimated love one so I wouldn't equate it to wetting the bed. I actually only give real credit to Andrea for doing so. Even though Carl shot a reanimated Shane, he was going to attack Rick so the need for action there was more dire. While its still an emotionally traumatizing thing, I think you would be less likely to freeze as adrenaline would take over if someone else's life was on the line, especially your actual Dad vs. more of your big brother type but Shane wasn't actual blood. Can't say for sure or not if Morgan froze, we know Duane did, but we don't know if Morgan had a clear shot or even a gun with him at the time to take out his reanimated wife from a distance. He did call for Duane so perhaps he thought Duane would just run. Rick had to shoot Sophia because Carol was in no condition to and as far as Dale, no one there was technically family so I don't think Daryl shooting him counts. Hershel and his family don't count either has they didn't kill any of their love ones in the barn, that was mostly Shane. So it seems for the most part people have copped out when it has come to shooting a love one.

I would only disagree about family being actual blood.  For Carl, Shane was more than just a family friend.  He was very much like an uncle to him - and a father figure when they thought Rick was dead.  Shane was just as much his family as Rick and Lori.  But I do agree the circumstances were different for Carl.  When he was put into the position of having to shoot walker Shane, he had already been through a lot.  Sophia missing and discovering she was a walker, Dale getting killed by the walker Carl did not kill in the woods - and did not tell anyone about, and those were the recent things - there was also the attack at the camp, having to "put down" the victims of that attack, dealing with the bodies, the events at the CDC, etc...  Carl felt responsible for what happened to Dale and that factored in to him being able to shoot walker Shane when his dad was in danger because he was determined not to make a mistake like that again.  Daryl may not have shared blood with Dale, but they were becoming a family even then - and he knew how difficult that would be for Rick so he took some of the load and told Rick he didn't have to do all the heavy lifting.  Rick had already had to put down Sophia - whom he had come to love and considered part of his family.  Rewatching that episode where Rick told Sophia they would never take a trip without her or her mom is so sad now.  Not to mention Rick's reaction when he found out Carol was alive at the prison.  I would agree that having to put down your own mother/father - or your own child - would certainly be more difficult because that is a very special bond, but the group has become family to each other as well so losing anyone in the group hurts all of them.

Duane didn't have those kinds of experiences though.  We don't know exactly what Duane was capable of in terms of him learning how to use a gun or whether or not Morgan ever let him kill walkers prior to the encounter with his walker mom, but we do know that Morgan and Duane were alone.  Duane had to deal with the death of his mother and knowing she was a walker, but it was just him and his dad after that.  Duane was presented as being more sheltered than Carl because it was just him and his dad.  Duane went through a lot with his mom dying, but Carl went through more because he was part of a group and other people he cared about died as well as his mother.  I don't think Duane would have been as hardened as Carl simply because he was presented as being more sheltered.  I don't think Carl would have held that against Duane though.  Their fathers are very similar in terms of personality and beliefs so I think Carl and Duane would have had common ground as well.

[Judari]

meesha1971, on 05 March 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

I would only disagree about family being actual blood.  For Carl, Shane was more than just a family friend.  He was very much like an uncle to him - and a father figure when they thought Rick was dead.  Shane was just as much his family as Rick and Lori.  But I do agree the circumstances were different for Carl.  When he was put into the position of having to shoot walker Shane, he had already been through a lot.  Sophia missing and discovering she was a walker, Dale getting killed by the walker Carl did not kill in the woods - and did not tell anyone about, and those were the recent things - there was also the attack at the camp, having to "put down" the victims of that attack, dealing with the bodies, the events at the CDC, etc...  Carl felt responsible for what happened to Dale and that factored in to him being able to shoot walker Shane when his dad was in danger because he was determined not to make a mistake like that again.  Daryl may not have shared blood with Dale, but they were becoming a family even then - and he knew how difficult that would be for Rick so he took some of the load and told Rick he didn't have to do all the heavy lifting.  Rick had already had to put down Sophia - whom he had come to love and considered part of his family.  Rewatching that episode where Rick told Sophia they would never take a trip without her or her mom is so sad now.  Not to mention Rick's reaction when he found out Carol was alive at the prison.  I would agree that having to put down your own mother/father - or your own child - would certainly be more difficult because that is a very special bond, but the group has become family to each other as well so losing anyone in the group hurts all of them.

I didn't mean to discount the other relationships in the group. Of course you don't have to be actual blood to be a family. The group now operates like a family and they do care for each other like one as well. In that particular instance I was referring to the fact that regardless if Shane was a walker or not, it was Shane against Rick. I believe in that case, because Rick was Carl's actual blood dad, and an overall loving dad, Carl would have chosen to save Rick no matter what over Shane. That isn't knocking Carl and Shane's relationship because it was strong as well, but you are always going to have a soft spot for your real parent. It's not like Carl holds a grudge against him for killing Shane still, he understands. But I agree that it wasn't easy for Rick, Daryl or Carl. I just think Andrea's case was on a different level, although to be fair it was the first time someone close to them had to be put down and actually reanimated before they were so its expected to be more serve at first.