[Dr Cank]

I wasn't disputing the functionality of the shovel (the reach and defense are huge advantages). If I were cornered by a walker and was lucky enough to have a shovel in my hand I believe I could put it to good use. however (and not trying to be to over critical here) I would think using a shovel to kill walkers would be exhausting. "bashing" in general would be tiring, piercing is the way to go. decapitation always bothered my because you are essentialy dropping a little chomping land mine on the ground (it would be pretty embaressing to be taken out by a headless walker). as for piercing, the key is minimmized surface area. More surface area the harder you have to thrust. rebar on a stick yoiu are putting your life in the hands of a piece of duct tape.

my Ideal garden tool in the ZA. pitch-fork, modify it to have one maybe two prongs bingo-bango aim for the eyes. Never underestimate fagtigue while zombie slaying.

[AndySnow]

I still respectfully disagree. It doesn't have to be sharp to be effective. It's a thin, metal edge. If you put force and pressure behind it, you can kill with it fairly easily. Here. Stand still and I'll show you....

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

Thanks for the welcome. . busy at the moment so will have to avoid your kindly offered demonstration. Though I still struggle to believe that it would work, since as well as the pressure she would have to put into into it, in order to not just awkwardly push the walker away, the walker would have to provide sufficient resistance, which since slow moving i don't think it could afford unless the walker was pushed up against something like a tree or wall. That's why a shoval is used as a downward force since the earth itself provides the resistance it needs. I think so anyway, I was useless with it. Don't like it anymore in a walker free world than I do in TWD.

[Valleyaggie]

I rebar on a stick yoiu are putting your life in the hands of a piece of duct tape.

my Ideal garden tool in the ZA. pitch-fork, modify it to have one maybe two prongs bingo-bango aim for the eyes. Never underestimate fagtigue while zombie slaying.

I agree totally with the pitch fork being superior. And with the shovel being exhausting. But it is still effective.

And never underestimate the power of duct tape.

Duct tape is like the force: It holds the universe together. And when you roll it up in a ball, it looks like the Deathstar.

[Deadpelican]

I may just not have fully understood your explanation, so I apologize if this is exactly what you meant...

The passage actually refers to it being preferable to cut off a limb or pluck out your own eye to save your soul, than to keep that limb and be cast into the hell forever. It illustrates the extreme seriousness of sin and the lengths that a person should go to to remove the temptation. It is still relevant to Merle though, my opinion was that Hershel was warning Merle what will happen if he doesn't change/quit being immoral. Even if you aren't a believer, you can look at it on a purely earthly basis - Merle will be "cast into hell" if he doesn't change his ways; that is, he'll be cast out of the prison, he'll be on his own in the hell that is outside protection. That is my interpretation, anyway.

Deadpelican -I was only joking.

Heh, well I still think you were onto something.

As for Merle/ Herscehell some people find it hard to swallow that Herschell would be so nice to Merle after he nearly got his daughter/ (sort of ) son-in-law killed.

Herschell's acceptance of Merle is a little hard to swallow and actually it sounds more like something Dale would do.

I read somewhere that Jeffrey Demunn left the show earlier than expected because he wanted out after Darabont was fired.

I"m wondering if Herschell is now more of a Dale/ Herschell hybrid because Dale was originally intended to be alive at this point.

[backwoodsroamer]

But as tyrion lannister tells us, I struggle to see Sasha using whetstone in the dark of night to sharpen that old shovel. And having just been using a shovel to dig up dirt for an extention these past two days, it is absolutely knackering wielding that thing for its proper purpose as a fit young male, how Sasha does manages to use it well is beyond belief. Literally.

I really must disagree on the denigration of the lowly shovel as a weapon. Yours truly once had the honor of bashing someone in the head with a shovel. Didn't kill them but they were certainly hors de combat afterwards.

While that was merely a workplace scuffle got out of hand the sharpened shovel has a long history of use as a weapon. It was a favorite on all sides in the trenches of WWI. I admit were I Sasha I would cut the handle down a bit to make it handier, but as Valleyaggie pointed out that would lesson the reach.

http://en.wikipedia....trenching_tool



There are even e-tools made now with an eye towards use as a weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0McQ-cQmUZA

[Judari]

I may just not have fully understood your explanation, so I apologize if this is exactly what you meant...

The passage actually refers to it being preferable to cut off a limb or pluck out your own eye to save your soul, than to keep that limb and be cast into the hell forever. It illustrates the extreme seriousness of sin and the lengths that a person should go to to remove the temptation. It is still relevant to Merle though, my opinion was that Hershel was warning Merle what will happen if he doesn't change/quit being immoral. Even if you aren't a believer, you can look at it on a purely earthly basis - Merle will be "cast into hell" if he doesn't change his ways; that is, he'll be cast out of the prison, he'll be on his own in the hell that is outside protection. That is my interpretation, anyway.

Ahh, I chose to focus on how the struggle of parting with a limb can be compared to overcoming sin. I felt like Hershel was using it to say if you could overcome your attachment to your limb and cast it away how you can also change your ways as well and cast off sin. I thought of it first because of how much Daryl believes in Merle. Although I also agree with your focus on "being cast into hell", if Merle doesn't change is ways or at least act right in the group he will be kicked out of the prison. There seems to be multiple layers to this.

I think it was probably a nice way of Hershel saying, "while its possible you could change you are going to need to get your shit together or be out on your ass"

Season 2 was the most criticized with people pissing and moaning about the slow pace.
Mazzara apparently reads these forums.
You asked for it, you got it, Toyota.

Or it could just be Mazzara doesn't know how to run a show like this. The real gripe about Season 2 was there really wasn't enough plot to fill an entire season. It was still made to be enjoyable to watch but it felt like situations were dragged out (especially with Shane). So people blamed pacing, as they needed to speed up the farm scenes and move on to something new. But really if from the beginning Mazzara had planned the production of Season 2 to focus on the farm only then "speeding it up" would have just resulted in a shorter season of episodes rather than new material.

With this new season there is a bunch of new plot angles and a ton of new characters that were introduced and never explored (hell people were still waiting for old characters like Beth and T-Dog to be explored). The problem with Season 3 is they have more than enough content for almost 2 seasons but are blowing threw it all because they think people wanted them to go faster through a season. When all people really wanted was a balanced season where characters and plot are fleshed out without dragging on or being overlooked. Might seem like we are "never satisfied" but asking for a balanced season really isn't requesting a lot I can name a number of TV shows that are successful at this.

Furthermore, we are fans and the majority of us have never worked in film or tv and don't know all the internal workings or how to translate books to shows. Good showrunners listen to fans but they also make their own educated decisions about the process as they are supposed to know how to take what we are asking for and turn it into something that actually works. I've done a bit of production for advertising and you don't know how many crazy and off the wall things clients ask for and its our job to take those requests and decipher what they are really asking for out them. We are fans and like clients we don't always know how to ask or articulate what we want, its the creatives job to use that and make something good with it. So while we are to blame a bit, its ultimately up to Mazzara to have the final say, he is the showrunner after all.

[Judari]

I really must disagree on the denigration of the lowly shovel as a weapon. Yours truly once had the honor of bashing someone in the head with a shovel. Didn't kill them but they were certainly hors de combat afterwards.

While that was merely a workplace scuffle got out of hand...

Remind me never to get on your bad side

[AndySnow]

my Ideal garden tool in the ZA. pitch-fork, modify it to have one maybe two prongs bingo-bango aim for the eyes. Never underestimate fagtigue while zombie slaying.

I see your pitchfork, and raise you a well sharpened easily hand-grasped rake, grim reaper style. Personally suits me quite well since i'm tall and my natural swinging motion would easily find the necks of what could be several walkers in a good swing in an open enough area, and I don't mind the chomping land mines as you put it since i think most survivors should wear tough solid boots, perhaps wrapped in duct tape. I think I could use the rake for longer than most garden tool weapons before exhaustion sets in. One main flaw is dispatching of people other than average height, not something that seems to be a problem in TWD universe since we've not seen dwarf or child walkers yet, barring the one in the pilot. And swinging round in circles with a rake may not look that cool, and whats the point in surviving the ZA if not to look cool.

[backwoodsroamer]

Remind me never to get on your bad side

I'm really a sweet person Judari. I just have these.....................spells...............................from time to time.

[AndySnow]

Season 2 was the most criticized with people pissing and moaning about the slow pace.
Mazzara apparently reads these forums.
You asked for it, you got it, Toyota.

Well now, if I asked Mr Mazzara to jump of a cliff would you expect him to do just that. Seriously, because if he would I'd totally ask. .
Never knew I had this power. What to do. What to do.

[Valleyaggie]

We should take our preferred zombie-fighting weapon discussion to the zombie survival threads. There are so many handy household weapons to use....

[Serenity@sea]

You can't discount the shovel. As much as we love Rick, we have all wanted to do this to him, at least once...

[Singlyme]

I keep thinking about that shovel. For a few good shots, an effective weapon. But a shovel isn't light. Boxers train to keep their arms up, don't they? Unless you've developed those muscles and endurance, it seems the required strength would be gone long before you'd get through a herd. Then again, the people in this series DO seem to have unlimited stamina.

Personally, I have this garden weeder with a v-shaped tip. A lot lighter than a shovel.

[Sweetsister]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ki42ZSIJjaU



I would just LOVE to see Daryl take out the Guvs other eye


https://www.youtube....e&v=ki42ZSIJjaU



Aww shucks, diddnt work, just picture the sceen from Kill Bill 2

[Timbersnake]

There's not enough time in a 40-minute episode to pack in all the dialogue you guys are demanding. Then if they gave it to you, there'd be complaints of it dragging on.

Then maybe they should make it a two hour weekly show. I am sure they could find the sponsors

SO which is it? Important facts of what happened were left out? Facts that were pertinent to Andrea knowing the complete truth about the Gov should have been told her, or at least been implied to fans that she was told.

How about after commercial, they start with Rick talking.

Rick: "After that Glen drove back and rescued Hershel and the Gov and his crew left. Thats everything that has happened since we came to the prison.unless someone else has anything to add."

[leon the pig farmer]

Then maybe they should make it a two hour weekly show. I am sure they could find the sponsors

SO which is it? Important facts of what happened were left out? Facts that were pertinent to Andrea knowing the complete truth about the Gov should have been told her, or at least been implied to fans that she was told.

How about after commercial, they start with Rick talking.

Rick: "After that Glen drove back and rescued Hershel and the Gov and his crew left. Thats everything that has happened since we came to the prison.unless someone else has anything to add."

LOL

[d2daybreak]

SNIPPED...

Or it could just be Mazzara doesn't know how to run a show like this. The real gripe about Season 2 was there really wasn't enough plot to fill an entire season. It was still made to be enjoyable to watch but it felt like situations were dragged out (especially with Shane). So people blamed pacing, as they needed to speed up the farm scenes and move on to something new. But really if from the beginning Mazzara had planned the production of Season 2 to focus on the farm only then "speeding it up" would have just resulted in a shorter season of episodes rather than new material. With this new season there is a bunch of new plot angles and a ton of new characters that were introduced and never explored (hell people were still waiting for old characters like Beth and T-Dog to be explored). The problem with Season 3 is they have more than enough content for almost 2 seasons but are blowing threw it all because they think people wanted them to go faster through a season. When all people really wanted was a balanced season where characters and plot are fleshed out without dragging on or being overlooked. Might seem like we are "never satisfied" but asking for a balanced season really isn't requesting a lot I can name a number of TV shows that are successful at this. Furthermore, we are fans and the majority of us have never worked in film or tv and don't know all the internal workings or how to translate books to shows. Good showrunners listen to fans but they also make their own educated decisions about the process as they are supposed to know how to take what we are asking for and turn it into something that actually works. I've done a bit of production for advertising and you don't know how many crazy and off the wall things clients ask for and its our job to take those requests and decipher what they are really asking for out them. We are fans and like clients we don't always know how to ask or articulate what we want, its the creatives job to use that and make something good with it. So while we are to blame a bit, its ultimately up to Mazzara to have the final say, he is the showrunner after all.

This is the best explanation of what went wrong with S2 that I have read. I agree wholeheartedly. I find it surprising that TPTB thought they had enough plot on the farm for 13 episodes considering in the comics they were only on the farm for 3 issues (10-12) before finding the prison. This is even more surprising when you consider that S1's 6 episodes covered the first 6 issues of Rick awakening, traveling to Atlanta and the Atlanta camp. When you take that into consideration, it is obvious that you are going to have to add a lot to the plot to cover 13 episodes and it seems that they only added enough for about a 10 episode season.

[Deadpelican]

Ahh, I chose to focus on how the struggle of parting with a limb can be compared to overcoming sin. I felt like Hershel was using it to say if you could overcome your attachment to your limb and cast it away how you can also change your ways as well and cast off sin. I thought of it first because of how much Daryl believes in Merle. Although I also agree with your focus on "being cast into hell", if Merle doesn't change is ways or at least act right in the group he will be kicked out of the prison. There seems to be multiple layers to this.

I think it was probably a nice way of Hershel saying, "while its possible you could change you are going to need to get your shit together or be out on your ass"



Or it could just be Mazzara doesn't know how to run a show like this. The real gripe about Season 2 was there really wasn't enough plot to fill an entire season. It was still made to be enjoyable to watch but it felt like situations were dragged out (especially with Shane). So people blamed pacing, as they needed to speed up the farm scenes and move on to something new. But really if from the beginning Mazzara had planned the production of Season 2 to focus on the farm only then "speeding it up" would have just resulted in a shorter season of episodes rather than new material.

With this new season there is a bunch of new plot angles and a ton of new characters that were introduced and never explored (hell people were still waiting for old characters like Beth and T-Dog to be explored). The problem with Season 3 is they have more than enough content for almost 2 seasons but are blowing threw it all because they think people wanted them to go faster through a season. When all people really wanted was a balanced season where characters and plot are fleshed out without dragging on or being overlooked. Might seem like we are "never satisfied" but asking for a balanced season really isn't requesting a lot I can name a number of TV shows that are successful at this.

Furthermore, we are fans and the majority of us have never worked in film or tv and don't know all the internal workings or how to translate books to shows. Good showrunners listen to fans but they also make their own educated decisions about the process as they are supposed to know how to take what we are asking for and turn it into something that actually works. I've done a bit of production for advertising and you don't know how many crazy and off the wall things clients ask for and its our job to take those requests and decipher what they are really asking for out them. We are fans and like clients we don't always know how to ask or articulate what we want, its the creatives job to use that and make something good with it. So while we are to blame a bit, its ultimately up to Mazzara to have the final say, he is the showrunner after all.

I agree 100 percent.

You're right about season three's flaws, but I like that you don't pretend as though season two was the high point of the series. IMO they both have strengths and weaknesses.

As for your observation about Shane in season two- that was really the major sticking point for me.

Some people loved the idea of keeping Shane around a lot longer but I personally didn't. I think it bugged me that much of the tension was over a woman. I'd rather they'd killed off Shane and maybe introduced Tyreese earlier and the alpha- male conflict in the group could have been Rick vs. Tyreese and not Rick vs. Shane.

I dunno, I think keeping Shane around for that long almost single-handedly hampered my enjoyment of season two

As for the translation, I can say that having read the walking dead comics, I'd have to say that it's looks to be a tough comic to translate to television. In most cases, they are doing a better job than I would have expected though.

For example, I didn't think that they could turn Michonne into something believable, but they did.

[Judari]

This is the best explanation of what went wrong with S2 that I have read. I agree wholeheartedly. I find it surprising that TPTB thought they had enough plot on the farm for 13 episodes considering in the comics they were only on the farm for 3 issues (10-12) before finding the prison. This is even more surprising when you consider that S1's 6 episodes covered the first 6 issues of Rick awakening, traveling to Atlanta and the Atlanta camp. When you take that into consideration, it is obvious that you are going to have to add a lot to the plot to cover 13 episodes and it seems that they only added enough for about a 10 episode season.

Thanks!

I had zero idea the farm was only 3 issues long. That seems ridiculous when you mentioned S1 covering so much in so little time. Not a comic reader so thanks for that insight! The only explanation I can think of for why they stayed on the farm is budgeting. It's cheaper then traveling on the road, building extra sets, and creating more walkers would be. I think during that time too is when the creator of Breaking Bad threaten to go to FX if AMC didn't give them more money and they were always paying a ridiculous amount for Mad Men so TWD got the short end of the stick.

I agree 100 percent.

You're right about season three's flaws, but I like that you don't pretend as though season two was the high point of the series. IMO they both have strengths and weaknesses.

As for your observation about Shane in season two- that was really the major sticking point for me.

Some people loved the idea of keeping Shane around a lot longer but I personally didn't. I think it bugged me that much of the tension was over a woman. I'd rather they'd killed off Shane and maybe introduced Tyreese earlier and the alpha- male conflict in the group could have been Rick vs. Tyreese and not Rick vs. Shane.

I dunno, I think keeping Shane around for that long almost single-handedly hampered my enjoyment of season two

As for the translation, I can say that having read the walking dead comics, I'd have to say that it's looks to be a tough comic to translate to television. In most cases, they are doing a better job than I would have expected though.

For example, I didn't think that they could turn Michonne into something believable, but they did.

Not going to lie I really enjoyed some of the scenes between Rick and Shane due to the tension, on the other hand I am in agreement with you that I also hated that all that tension was caused over Lori (who was an insufferable character for the most part anyway). Plus it just lasted too long.

I think the introduction of Tyreese earlier would have helped the story as well. The farm should have lasted up to mid-season finale with "farmageddon" and Shane's death then should have took us through winter. Rick's group could have met up with Tyreese's group during winter and ended with them finding the prison. During that time we could also have had Andrea and Michonne story line which could have developed their friendship more and gave some REAL insight into Michonne. I think we've seen with the newest episode that Michonne shines when there isn't a bunch of other characters to focus on. I think her character gets drowned out in a group since she is such an introvert making her seem like a caricature rather than having actual depth. Their story line could have ended with the helicopter crash and a Gov/Merle reveal.

Michonne I think is a WIP. IMO its not that the character itself is unbelievable but until last episode they really neglected to develop her in order to make her mysterious and keep vital information from the group to hold out for a more dramatic reveal later.

I think in someways its always hard to turn a comic into TV. I haven't read TWD but from what you said as well as the general consensus they seem to be doing pretty well. It could always turn out worse so I think in that way we should count our blessings lol. I know, I've seen worse. DBZ live action movie was beyond horrible and if I had not been on a 9 hr international flight I think I might have been spared the horror lol.

[meesha1971]

Thanks!

I had zero idea the farm was only 3 issues long. That seems ridiculous when you mentioned S1 covering so much in so little time. Not a comic reader so thanks for that insight! The only explanation I can think of for why they stayed on the farm is budgeting. It's cheaper then traveling on the road, building extra sets, and creating more walkers would be. I think during that time too is when the creator of Breaking Bad threaten to go to FX if AMC didn't give them more money and they were always paying a ridiculous amount for Mad Men so TWD got the short end of the stick.

It was definitely a budget issue. AMC slashed the budget for season 2 of TWD - I heard something about a lawsuit as well as the stuff with Breaking Bad and Mad Men. AMC asked them to use a static location instead of being on the road because that is cheaper and they wanted them to show fewer zombies to save money on zombie makeup - which is why there was so little zombie action in season 2 until the end. They also had such "brilliant" ideas like having the characters hear the zombies instead of actually seeing them.

Not going to lie I really enjoyed some of the scenes between Rick and Shane due to the tension, on the other hand I am in agreement with you that I also hated that all that tension was caused over Lori (who was an insufferable character for the most part anyway). Plus it just lasted too long.

I liked that they fleshed out Shane's story in the show for the most part. The initial plan was for Shane to die in season 1, but when they found out they would only have 6 episodes, they decided to wait until season 2. I think that was the right decision, but they did drag that out too long. The Rick/Lori/Shane love triangle came from the comics and I do think that was a plausible angle, but I think it would have been better to wrap that up in the mid season finale. The search for Sophia and discovery that she was one of the walkers in the barn should not have taken six full episodes to resolve either.

I think the introduction of Tyreese earlier would have helped the story as well. The farm should have lasted up to mid-season finale with "farmageddon" and Shane's death then should have took us through winter. Rick's group could have met up with Tyreese's group during winter and ended with them finding the prison. During that time we could also have had Andrea and Michonne story line which could have developed their friendship more and gave some REAL insight into Michonne. I think we've seen with the newest episode that Michonne shines when there isn't a bunch of other characters to focus on. I think her character gets drowned out in a group since she is such an introvert making her seem like a caricature rather than having actual depth. Their story line could have ended with the helicopter crash and a Gov/Merle reveal.

I don't think the problem was them staying on the farm so much as the fact that very little happened on the farm until those last few episodes. They could have added more to that plot arc to make it more interesting, IMO. Bringing Tyreese in while they were still on the farm would have been interesting - if they used the same group they have now, that could have provided some conflict with Allen and Ben. I think that would have been too soon to introduce Michonne though. I'd keep that for season 3 - though I agree they should have shown more of Michonne and Andrea traveling together as well as the group on the road. It would have been very simple for them to spread the Woodbury/prison arc over at least two seasons if Mazzara hadn't rushed through the plot so quickly.

I would actually have enjoyed seeing more of them training in how to use weapons while they were on the farm - as well as practicing hand to hand so they could kill walkers quietly instead of shooting them. They had the wooded area that they used for various scenes so it wouldn't have required travel to show them going into the woods to look for walkers to practice killing them quietly. That goes for Carl as well - it would have been nice to see him learning how to shoot and I think that would have tied in nicely to him encountering that walker on his own and feeling guilty about Dale's death because he didn't kill it. That would have been a good time for them to learn other survival skills as well. There was a lot that could have been accomplished on the farm if they hadn't spent so much time on searching for Sophia and the love triangle.

Michonne I think is a WIP. IMO its not that the character itself is unbelievable but until last episode they really neglected to develop her in order to make her mysterious and keep vital information from the group to hold out for a more dramatic reveal later.

It makes sense when you consider the timeline - Michonne had only been with the prison group for a couple of days when Andrea showed up at the prison. I think that comes back to Mazzara rushing through the plot. It feels longer because we had that long break, but they've actually only been at the prison for about 5 or 6 days. That's why I think it would have been better if the first few episodes of the season had focused on the two groups traveling rather than immediately finding the prison while Andrea and Michonne ran into the governor and were taken to Woodbury.

[Judari]

It was definitely a budget issue. AMC slashed the budget for season 2 of TWD - I heard something about a lawsuit as well as the stuff with Breaking Bad and Mad Men. AMC asked them to use a static location instead of being on the road because that is cheaper and they wanted them to show fewer zombies to save money on zombie makeup - which is why there was so little zombie action in season 2 until the end. They also had such "brilliant" ideas like having the characters hear the zombies instead of actually seeing them.

Ahh I see, I didn't know that little tidbit of AMC actually asking them to use one location, makes sense though. Although its sad when you think of what could have been if they didn't.

I liked that they fleshed out Shane's story in the show for the most part. The initial plan was for Shane to die in season 1, but when they found out they would only have 6 episodes, they decided to wait until season 2. I think that was the right decision, but they did drag that out too long. The Rick/Lori/Shane love triangle came from the comics and I do think that was a plausible angle, but I think it would have been better to wrap that up in the mid season finale. The search for Sophia and discovery that she was one of the walkers in the barn should not have taken six full episodes to resolve either.

Considering Season 2 was at a static location I agree that keeping him on was best. Jon Bernthal is a great actor so while I do think they spent too long on the story, that isn't to say I didn't enjoy the individual scenes themselves. To see Shane's progression into insanity was awesome and well acted. However as an entire season I think while it didn't necessarily make the season bad, it definitely could have been made to be better at the expense of showing less of that progression.

I don't think the problem was them staying on the farm so much as the fact that very little happened on the farm until those last few episodes. They could have added more to that plot arc to make it more interesting, IMO. Bringing Tyreese in while they were still on the farm would have been interesting - if they used the same group they have now, that could have provided some conflict with Allen and Ben. I think that would have been too soon to introduce Michonne though. I'd keep that for season 3 - though I agree they should have shown more of Michonne and Andrea traveling together as well as the group on the road. It would have been very simple for them to spread the Woodbury/prison arc over at least two seasons if Mazzara hadn't rushed through the plot so quickly.

I would actually have enjoyed seeing more of them training in how to use weapons while they were on the farm - as well as practicing hand to hand so they could kill walkers quietly instead of shooting them. They had the wooded area that they used for various scenes so it wouldn't have required travel to show them going into the woods to look for walkers to practice killing them quietly. That goes for Carl as well - it would have been nice to see him learning how to shoot and I think that would have tied in nicely to him encountering that walker on his own and feeling guilty about Dale's death because he didn't kill it. That would have been a good time for them to learn other survival skills as well. There was a lot that could have been accomplished on the farm if they hadn't spent so much time on searching for Sophia and the love triangle.

I actually think it might have been too soon to bring in Tyreese and his group. At least while on the farm. I agree same with Michonne on the farm. I think they could have explored the Randall situation more. Although I actually like that we were left a bit open ended on Randall, whether he was actually good or bad. Learning more about T-Dog or Beth would have been nice though.

It makes sense when you consider the timeline - Michonne had only been with the prison group for a couple of days when Andrea showed up at the prison. I think that comes back to Mazzara rushing through the plot. It feels longer because we had that long break, but they've actually only been at the prison for about 5 or 6 days. That's why I think it would have been better if the first few episodes of the season had focused on the two groups traveling rather than immediately finding the prison while Andrea and Michonne ran into the governor and were taken to Woodbury.

There is a lot Michonne knew about Woodbury, the Gov, Merle and Andrea she kept to herself. Some information I understand from her perspective may have compromised her but there is a lot of details she never mentioned that would have helped the group and gained their confidence in her imo.

[meesha1971]

Ahh I see, I didn't know that little tidbit of AMC actually asking them to use one location, makes sense though. Although its sad when you think of what could have been if they didn't.

I actually think they could have used that stretch of road and the woods to create the illusion of different locations, but they didn't. On the whole, I don't think it was a bad idea for them to be on the farm for the whole season - I just don't think they did enough with it.

Considering Season 2 was at a static location I agree that keeping him on was best. Jon Bernthal is a great actor so while I do think they spent too long on the story, that isn't to say I didn't enjoy the individual scenes themselves. To see Shane's progression into insanity was awesome and well acted. However as an entire season I think while it didn't necessarily make the season bad, it definitely could have been made to be better at the expense of showing less of that progression.

Agreed.

I actually think it might have been too soon to bring in Tyreese and his group. At least while on the farm. I agree same with Michonne on the farm. I think they could have explored the Randall situation more. Although I actually like that we were left a bit open ended on Randall, whether he was actually good or bad. Learning more about T-Dog or Beth would have been nice though.

Good point about Tyreese. I can see where they could make that work, but that would have been more characters to focus on and they didn't do very well in developing all the characters they had. They wasted a lot of opportunities to develop T-Dog on the farm - city boy adjusting to life on the farm would have been entertaining as well as informative. I think they could have done more with Randall and still left that question unresolved because Randall was desperate to convince them to let him stay. It would have made more sense to see them interacting with him more before trying to dump him off somewhere in 18 Miles Out. I would have preferred seeing them talking to him and asking him questions while he was confined to a bed and recuperating from the surgery Hershel did on his leg to Daryl torturing him to be honest.

There is a lot Michonne knew about Woodbury, the Gov, Merle and Andrea she kept to herself. Some information I understand from her perspective may have compromised her but there is a lot of details she never mentioned that would have helped the group and gained their confidence in her imo.

I think Michonne told them all she knew about Woodbury and the governor - she didn't have a great deal of factual information about either. She led them to the location, showed them the weak point in the wall security, gave them the layout, told them about the curfew - not much more to tell about the town. She told them that the governor was a Jim Jones type and how he had sent people to kill her. All she could really tell them about the governor were her suspicions.

I agree that telling them about Andrea and more details about Merle might have given them more confidence in her, but I can understand why she waited. She had enough information to figure out that was the group Andrea used to be part of, but I don't think she was certain of that until she got to the prison and observed them. She knew Merle was Daryl's brother so I can understand why she would be wary of telling them that Daryl's brother was the one who shot her. She had a very specific goal in wanting to be part of the rescue mission so she could try to kill the governor and controlling the information they had ensured they would take her along. That's where Michonne really messed up though. Slipping off without saying anything is what really made Rick think she couldn't be trusted. I don't think she was thinking about staying with the prison group at that point though - her focus was more on killing the governor and, from what she said to Andrea here, it appears she was hoping to leave Woodbury with Andrea. Had her plan worked and she met them outside with Andrea, that probably would have had a different outcome.

I do think she intended to tell them about Andrea though. I think she was waiting until they got back to the safety of the prison. Merle beat her to it by announcing that Andrea was in Woodbury and sleeping with the governor - which Michonne did not know about - so waiting to say anything turned out to be the wrong choice. However, that was also something she couldn't have predicted. She wasn't expecting them to show up with Daryl and Merle. Hindsight is 20/20 so I think Michonne would probably handle it differently if she had it to do over again, but I can understand why she handled it the way she did based on what she did know at the time.