[SugarSkull]

I agree with a lot of what you said Seren....I think that Andrea is not searching out answers as much or as hard as she should be ...and allowing her self to swallow easy answers because she really really wants WB to be the safe haven she has been looking for (as safe as you can get in ZA) .....I like Andrea and its been killing me to see her this way...I want her to get back to the group really bad ....but on the other hand I can really see why she is fighting so hard to beleive that WB is truely a good place ....she was feeling like an outsider/ discontent at the farm (another reason she was drawn to Shane) and she finds this place with someone telling her she belongs and she is needed....I think I can see where someone would be a little blinded by that ....but don't get me wrong I'm ready for her to kick WB to the curb and go kick some but with the the prison group

[Serenity@sea]

Serenity@Sea, very well put.

I wasn't directing the black and white comment to you in particular. let me preface my next comment by saying I have not read the comics/graphic novel. but a lot of people are always attacking Andrea for not being Andrea. Thus every decision the TV Andrea makes is wrong or ignorant, well that's just not fair. She may not be my favorite character but she seems rather consistent (in her evolution) too me. I can see a lot of her decisions as being foolish or erratic but I do think the character is believable. We do agree on one thing :

It's very complicated and that is one of the reasons I love TWD. I love all the shades of grey.

As long as it's not 50 shades.
I do see your point about Comic Andrea.

[SteadyEddie]

Did anyone think they were purposefully writing Andrea to be unlikeable? Does every character have to be admired? Didja ever think of that? Huh? Didja??!?

[Blasko_Z]

Did anyone think they were purposefully writing Andrea to be unlikeable? Does every character have to be admired? Didja ever think of that? Huh? Didja??!?

I did, and absolutely no part of me believes that they are writing Andrea to be unlikable. At least, not intentionally.

[Dr Cank]

I think most of us are on the page here and my initial thought process for my comments may have been lost/diluted.

So I will ask the blunt question.

As of Season 3 Episode 11 are Andrea's actions (or rather inaction) believable?

sub-question: is her inaction the result of poor writing or are we just frustrated with the decisions of a well/adequately developed character?

[Judari]

I think to you and me ( the audience who get to see all the crazy) its obvious that the heads are nothing like the walker pets or Hershel's barn ...but when your in the middle of it and you have seen people keep zombies before for what ever reason its a little bit harder to assume it automatically points to someone is a bad person .....everyone blasted Andrea in season two about being to rash and hotheaded ...jumping in the sh*t before thinking....now she is taking her sweet time to consider all angles and people blast her for that too....girl can't win to lose

Totally agree with that, especially the bold.

I understand that he told Andrea that he kept the heads as a reminder of the dangers outside. However, I think that most people who saw them displayed as they were, would understand that it was more like a shrine. Hence, the trophy connection.

Regarding your conjecture, human beings are cabable of justifing all kinds of reasons for doing the things they do. That doesn't mean that Andrea should just accept any line of BS that he hands her. She is an intelligent women. She was a civil rights attorney. Too many time she accepted his excuses without really devling into it too deeply. Judari is correct that they were interrupted but that should have raised some red flags that made her investigate on her own (like Michonne did).
Which leads me to believe that Andrea was blinded by love for not only the Govenor but also to the very idea of this safe haven.
I don't think that anyone is stating that it a black and white issue. It's very complicated and that is one of the reasons I love TWD. I love all the shades of grey.

Just to clarify, I never thought that Milton interrupting their conversation was planned by him/Gov to distract Andrea. Both times he interrupted, especially the second, it seem to come more as an unexpected bother because both times situations with the town were brewing. So I don't think Andrea should have been suspicious of Milton/the Gov by that. Perhaps I'm wrong though but that's how I viewed Milton's intrusions. I called that bad writing though because it was a way to keep Andrea in Woodbury longer and distract her from having the confrontation with the Gov we all knew was coming (and should have came much earlier than it did) instead of just thinking of a more logical plotline to keep her there.

I remember discussing this with Meesha (where is she btw? always good in a thoughtful debate) that I thought Andrea was looking for reasons to stay while Michonne was looking for reasons to leave. The evidence (up until the Gov sent Merle to kill Michonne) wasn't really enough for Andrea nor Michonne to confirm whether Woodbury was trouble or not. I think had the Gov turned out to be good everyone would be saying how paranoid Michonne was instead of how blind Andrea is. I don't blame Michonne for being suspicious nor Andrea for not being suspicious enough given the circumstances, as they reacted based on their personalities. I just think the failing came at a misunderstanding of their friendship on both ends, they don't seem able to read each other very well.

[SugarSkull]

I feel like I'm 80/20 well developed/ bad writing.......I think the writers should not have stretched it out quit this long , so not so much bad writing as bad timing ? anticipation can turn to irritation pretty fast in TV land

Edit to add that I agree 100% with what Judari said above....just what I was thinking (but better stated) especially the 2nd Paragraph...+1 from me

[Serenity@sea]

Totally agree with that, especially the bold.



Just to clarify, I never thought that Milton interrupting their conversation was planned by him/Gov to distract Andrea. Both times he interrupted, especially the second, it seem to come more as an unexpected bother because both times situations with the town were brewing. So I don't think Andrea should have been suspicious of Milton/the Gov by that. Perhaps I'm wrong though but that's how I viewed Milton's intrusions. I called that bad writing though because it was a way to keep Andrea in Woodbury longer and distract her from having the confrontation with the Gov we all knew was coming (and should have came much earlier than it did) instead of just thinking of a more logical plotline to keep her there.

I remember discussing this with Meesha (where is she btw? always good in a thoughtful debate) that I thought Andrea was looking for reasons to stay while Michonne was looking for reasons to leave. The evidence (up until the Gov sent Merle to kill Michonne) wasn't really enough for Andrea nor Michonne to confirm whether Woodbury was trouble or not. I think had the Gov turned out to be good everyone would be saying how paranoid Michonne was instead of how blind Andrea is. I don't blame Michonne for being suspicious nor Andrea for not being suspicious enough given the circumstances, as they reacted based on their personalities. I just think the failing came at a misunderstanding of their friendship on both ends, they don't seem able to read each other very well.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't think it was intentional on the Guv's part either to have Milton interrupt them. I agree that it was more a plot device than anything. My point was that if Andrea wasn't getting the answers from the Guv, she could have taken it upon herself to investigate.

[SteadyEddie]

Well, at least you thought about it...

I did, and absolutely no part of me believes that they are writing Andrea to be unlikable. At least, not intentionally.

[Dr Cank]

Did anyone think they were purposefully writing Andrea to be unlikeable? Does every character have to be admired? Didja ever think of that? Huh? Didja??!?

I know males 18-49 are the target audience but why would you purposely tank your best potential for a strong female lead? Unless of course I just answered my own questions (overly cynical ). Michonne as cool as she is as a walker slayer; I don't see her making the leap to strong female lead.

[Judari]

I think most of us are on the page here and my initial thought process for my comments may have been lost/diluted.

So I will ask the blunt question.

As of Season 3 Episode 11 are Andrea's actions (or rather inaction) believable?

sub-question: is her inaction the result of poor writing or are we just frustrated with the decisions of a well/adequately developed character?

Great question and I be interested to see others views. For me, to be fair, I think its a bit of both.

Initially Andrea was looking for reasons to stay even if she did question a few things. For those people who watch TWD and wouldn't want to give up certain freedoms such as now having curfew, not being able to hold weapons or following orders, I believe they view Andrea to be stupid/naive. They are probably thinking "Why would someone sacrifice those things for safety? I'd take my chances out in the wild with Michonne and my freedom." It isn't wrong of them to have that opinion, especially since we all knew from the beginning Woodbury was bad. However, it doesn't change the fact that Andrea, who would give up those freedoms for security, didn't have enough evidence or facts to leave since Woodbury isn't naturally suspicious to her. It's in her character not to be suspicious of a place like Woodbury for its safety and I think depending on people's stance on Woodbury and its rules they are either going to fault her for that or not. So I think people who are frustrated with her initial decision to stay are frustrated with the developed character and not the writing.

IMO, poor writing comes into play when after Michonne's confrontation with the Gov and Andrea walking in, twice her confrontation with the Gov was put on pause by dire events. My impression of that was that the writers wanted us to know Andrea was now suspicious of the Gov but they still needed her to be in Woodbury for a while longer so it was there way of stretching out the plot and stringing the audience along for a few more episodes without wondering why Andrea isn't trying to question the Gov despite all that's happened/she's seen. Honestly that failed as people are now calling Andrea stupid for ignoring things when it was shown that her character made multiple attempts but it always was interrupted by shit hitting the fan.

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't think it was intentional on the Guv's part either to have Milton interrupt them. I agree that it was more a plot device than anything. My point was that if Andrea wasn't getting the answers from the Guv, she could have taken it upon herself to investigate.

Ahhh I see. I agree that there should have been more investigation shown going down after that. I'm trying to remember but all these past 3 episodes are running together in my mind. Was there a time for her to investigate? By "time" I mean screen time of her shown in Woodbury where she was doing something where instead she could have been investigating the Gov. I remember the Daryl/Merle arena fight, her confronting Gov after that but then having to give her mini speech, the Gov promising her not to retaliate, her trying to find the Gov and everyone giving her the run around (I kinda count this as investigation) and then her going against the Gov to the prison. Everything this season is happening so fast but I would have liked to see Andrea discover some of this for herself instead of just having to be told things.

[Valleyaggie]

I think most of us are on the page here and my initial thought process for my comments may have been lost/diluted.

So I will ask the blunt question.

As of Season 3 Episode 11 are Andrea's actions (or rather inaction) believable?

sub-question: is her inaction the result of poor writing or are we just frustrated with the decisions of a well/adequately developed character?

Excellent question.

Great question and I be interested to see others views. For me, to be fair, I think its a bit of both.

Initially Andrea was looking for reasons to stay even if she did question a few things. For those people who watch TWD and wouldn't want to give up certain freedoms such as now having curfew, not being able to hold weapons or following orders, I believe they view Andrea to be stupid/naive. They are probably thinking "Why would someone sacrifice those things for safety? I'd take my chances out in the wild with Michonne and my freedom." It isn't wrong of them to have that opinion, especially since we all knew from the beginning Woodbury was bad. However, it doesn't change the fact that Andrea, who would give up those freedoms for security, didn't have enough evidence or facts to leave since Woodbury isn't naturally suspicious to her. It's in her character not to be suspicious of a place like Woodbury for its safety and I think depending on people's stance on Woodbury and its rules they are either going to fault her for that or not. So I think people who are frustrated with her initial decision to stay are frustrated with the developed character and not the writing.

IMO, poor writing comes into play when after Michonne's confrontation with the Gov and Andrea walking in, twice her confrontation with the Gov was put on pause by dire events. My impression of that was that the writers wanted us to know Andrea was now suspicious of the Gov but they still needed her to be in Woodbury for a while longer so it was there way of stretching out the plot and stringing the audience along for a few more episodes without wondering why Andrea isn't trying to question the Gov despite all that's happened/she's seen. Honestly that failed as people are now calling Andrea stupid for ignoring things when it was shown that her character made multiple attempts but it always was interrupted by shit hitting the fan.




Ahhh I see. I agree that there should have been more investigation shown going down after that. I'm trying to remember but all these past 3 episodes are running together in my mind. Was there a time for her to investigate? By "time" I mean screen time of her shown in Woodbury where she was doing something where instead she could have been investigating the Gov. I remember the Daryl/Merle arena fight, her confronting Gov after that but then having to give her mini speech, the Gov promising her not to retaliate, her trying to find the Gov and everyone giving her the run around (I kinda count this as investigation) and then her going against the Gov to the prison. Everything this season is happening so fast but I would have liked to see Andrea discover some of this for herself instead of just having to be told things.

Excellent reply. + 1

[Dr Cank]

IMO, poor writing comes into play when after Michonne's confrontation with the Gov and Andrea walking in, twice her confrontation with the Gov was put on pause by dire events. My impression of that was that the writers wanted us to know Andrea was now suspicious of the Gov but they still needed her to be in Woodbury for a while longer so it was there way of stretching out the plot and stringing the audience along for a few more episodes without wondering why Andrea isn't trying to question the Gov despite all that's happened/she's seen. Honestly that failed as people are now calling Andrea stupid for ignoring things when it was shown that her character made multiple attempts but it always was interrupted by shit hitting the fan.

Excellent concise answer.

If understand your opinion I think we are in agreement. It isn't that Andrea's character is poorly written or unrealistic she just so happens to get the short end of the stick in the story development. Yeah, I like how you approached this. It is kind of like they had to pause her, she needs to be in the timetable with the rest of the group (whom I believe she will rejoin) and we need to keep flashing between the prison and woodbury (supposedly) so in order to keep her conclusions from getting too much further ahead than the rest of the group she was stuck in a loop for a few episodes. I guess the only other option would be to show more of woodbury without Andrea but I am not interested in meeting all that future walker bait any way.

[Deadringer]

Changing the subject here a bit, I noticed a few people mention the governor giving Sasha the eye when they arrived at Woodbury.
I didn't notice before, but, I just watched the episode again and yeah.. he just stares at her for what seems like a good amount of time!
I might mean nothing, but it certainly looked eerie - I wonder if this is leading up to something?

[Blasko_Z]

Changing the subject here a bit, I noticed a few people mention the governor giving Sasha the eye when they arrived at Woodbury.
I didn't notice before, but, I just watched the episode again and yeah.. he just stares at her for what seems like a good amount of time!
I might mean nothing, but it certainly looked eerie - I wonder if this is leading up to something?

My personal guess is that the Governor will try something, causing a rift to open between him and Tyreese.

[Deadringer]

My personal guess is that the Governor will try something, causing a rift to open between him and Tyreese.

Quite possibly - I hope they do end up at odds and don't stay friends for long

[Blasko_Z]

Quite possibly - I hope they do end up at odds and don't stay friends for long

If Tyreese is as great a judge of character and as perceptive as Robert Kirkman is insisting he is, then spotting flaws in the Governor should take exactly no time at all.

[Dr Cank]

could go one of two ways:

1. the previously stated Tyreese rift

2. the Andrea final straw

or as hoping, both. Instant tie between Andrea and Tyreese/Sasha just in time to meet up with the prison crew and then nothing to do but kill some zombies. (dear Santa please give Tyreese and Sasha something cooler than a hammer and shovel)

Second thought Edit: hammers kind of cool but a shovel? But neither would seem ideally suited to cranial piercing. Seriously thats probably why they always look so tired.

[Blasko_Z]

could go one of two ways:

1. the previously stated Tyreese rift

2. the Andrea final straw

or as hoping, both. Instant tie between Andrea and Tyreese/Sasha just in time to meet up with the prison crew and then nothing to do but kill some zombies. (dear Santa please give Tyreese and Sasha something cooler than a hammer and shovel)

I don't know if you get much more awesome than coolly dispatching walkers with a hammer. As an avid Thor fan, I may be entirely biased; a fact I am very willing to accept.

[thelastpaul]

He was a jerk in season 1 for 1 episode - not really a bad guy as such. In season 3 he has been kinda bad for sure, and Glenn and Maggie nor Michonne are happy about it. But he did co-save Rick last episode (even if for Daryl's sake), even before he went to hunt down Michonne/kidnapped Glenn (desperation to find his brother),Merle showed signs of not being all that bad. To be honest Glenn/Maggie/Michonne would be stupid to cause more conflict in prison by making a huge show of their grudge especially if they stand the chance of losing Daryl. They need everyone they can get knowing the war whole groups as risk.

Maggie wanted him in another cell away from them, Glenn has had issue with Merle since suicide king and so has Michonne.To be honest I'd be bored hearing Maggie/Glenn/Michonne making more drama out of Merle at this point, he is the least of their problems. I can't bare to hear Glenn whinge anymore over Merle when there is a much bigger threat.

You'd whine too if the man who attempted to murder you and your girlfriend was sleeping next to you

[BenRai2k]

You'd whine too if the man who attempted to murder you and your girlfriend was sleeping next to you

They have much bigger fish to fry. He has had his hissy fit and now he needs to get over it to be honest. I think Glenn could have reasoned to Merele better in the first place when he wanted to see Daryl. Not just tell him to wait there. He can cry about Merele after they have avoided the whole prison group being slaughtered. Him suggesting handing Merle over as a bargain chip made no sense either, as if Daryl would allow it. And again - more internal conflict would be caused.

It is these internal group dramas that lead to thinks like losing the safe haven of a farm (arguing over a woman, Lori, resulting in gun shots fired out attracting near by hoards).

[Blasko_Z]

They have much bigger fish to fry. He has had his hissy fit and now he needs to get over it to be honest. I think Glenn could have reasoned to Merele better in the first place when he wanted to see Daryl. Not just tell him to wait there. He can cry about Merele after they have avoided the whole prison group being slaughtered. Him suggesting handing Merle over as a bargain chip made no sense either, as if Daryl would allow it. And again - more internal conflict would be caused.

It is these internal group dramas that lead to thinks like losing the safe haven of a farm (arguing over a woman, Lori, resulting in gun shots fired out attracting near by hoards).

Which is in keeping with the show's ideology that the true enemies aren't the walkers, but other humans.

[BenRai2k]

Wow, just watched this episode.

It's horrifically bad with twinges of how it used to be, ie survival, friendship, some great music.

Merle, Michonne in the same room doesn't make sense, and she fled woodbury because she "had a bad feeling" and now she's joined forces with Merle???? That's just one glaring error.

How is it an error? What is with this stupid "Glenn and Michonne ok to team with Merle" talk? Did she not run up to him and threaten to hack his head off with a katana? Did Glenn not put a gun up to his head? And they had an argument which meant Daryl left? The only reason Michonne is biting her tongue is because it is Rick's group - Merle just co-saved Rick from Walkers. It isn't her place too be asserting authrority, and like it or not she knows the prison needs man power. Unlike Glenn who wants to (and understanable too) keeps going on about Merle being an issue there.

Did Michonne look welcoming with arms open when he was talking to her as she did sit ups? Back in my school days I've had bullies who stole my belongings and made fun of me, and then we were in situations we had to work together. I bit my lip and was as cold to them as I needed to be. I didn't forgive, I didn't forget but it had to be done for the moment.

Herschel knows it isn't really ideal neither, but he points out Merle has valuable training with weaponary and he is Daryl's brother.

Alright, let Glenn and Michonne kill Merle? Then we have Daryl upset - possibly willing to leave the group. Carol may go with him - they could end up dead alone in the wild. Then Rick will be furious with Glenn, Maggie and Herschel will no doubt have varying conflict now the group is fragmenting. The prison will be less people, less mentally alert, and too sself absorbed for anything to come. As I said, similar occured on the farm with Shane and Rickk - the end result? Losing the farm. Only this time more than just a farm could be lost.

[BenRai2k]

Which is in keeping with the show's ideology that the true enemies aren't the walkers, but other humans.

I agree? But other than some dickish Altanta behaviour, Glenn had no real reason to not at least take him to a prison and lock him up and let Daryl decide what to do. They could have concluded it best them 2 go it alone and leave like they did if the rest felt unsafe.

[theglassintheguvseye]

They have much bigger fish to fry. He has had his hissy fit and now he needs to get over it to be honest. I think Glenn could have reasoned to Merele better in the first place when he wanted to see Daryl. Not just tell him to wait there. He can cry about Merele after they have avoided the whole prison group being slaughtered. Him suggesting handing Merle over as a bargain chip made no sense either, as if Daryl would allow it. And again - more internal conflict would be caused.

It is these internal group dramas that lead to thinks like losing the safe haven of a farm (arguing over a woman, Lori, resulting in gun shots fired out attracting near by hoards).

I +1 ed you but I do understand Glenn's hissy fit. Merle put a zombie on him when he was duct taped to a chair. He is the one who has the most reason to hate Merle but needs to get past it for now for the good of the group. The time for emotion is later.