[SugarSkull]

Andrea has demonstrated over and over that facts don't matter to her and you're demanding to know why Michonne didn't give her the facts? Okay then.

Judari explained her side quite well but maybe you can expand your reasoning somewhat? what facts are you thinking of that Andrea blatantly refused ?

I'm not trying to provoke you...I'm genuinely curious about what lead you to this determination

[SteadyEddie]

Exactly. Andrea knows the guy has Walker fights, and keeps heads in fish tanks, but she still goes back to the guy because she's blind. I don't know why people are trying to defend Andrea's actions, yet Michonne is the problem?

Sometimes it's just people who are trying to find problems in logic where there really aren't. Sometimes those people are fans of the comic and don't like any deviation from the "canon" storyline. Sometimes it's wannabe zombie novel authors who think they can do better...

[StrollingDead]

Thought it was (mostly) a great episode,with a few caveats.

-The Andrea/Michonne relationship was totally screwed up by the writers/show-runner/whoever when they missed the awesome scene at the beginning of season 3 where Michonne tosses back her hood- followed by a few scenes of them surviving together/ building trust with each other. instead they panicked and worried about the fanboyz saying ""I don't wanna see all this talking stuff like season 2 ; I just wanna see zombie kills."
Since then it's been a total waste trying to make sense of their relationship.

- I love the people saying "Oh, Merle's a bad guy so it doesn't make sense him being with the group". I'd like to see thee people reviewing WWII. "Stalin's a bad guy and Hitler's a bad guy too but the Allies are good guys so how can Stalin and Roosevelt and Churchill work together? It's just not right."
You do what you gotta do. Of course, neither Maggie nor Glenn nor Michonne should trust him- but as far as Rick and Hersh are concerned, he's the price you have to pay for Daryl, plus he's valuable in himself as a fighter- as long as you don't trust him.

-Andrea was good in this episode, except for the "Rick's turned cold" comment. How about "Rick was always as dumb as a sack of hammers, and now he's a psycho too."?

[Malise]

I don't get Carol'sidea at all it seems like a suicide plan tbh. So she has sex with the guv then slits his throat!? Then what? Are Rick and co going to extract her from the apartment?

[alamozombie]

Not stepping in for the other poster but these are a couple that i noticed.

1. Refuses to let them have their weapons back or leave the town and is ok with that
2. Witnesses Fights in a zombie pit (takes the Guvs word it is all just blowing of steam for the town)
3. Helping milton expirement on an old dying dude
4. Seeing the dead soldiers head in a tank when she had also seen him alive in the hospital
5. Gets lectured like a child for going over the wall by the Guv and is just fine with it

I am sure there is a ton that i missed maybe other people will chime in on this subject. My point which i maybe did not explain well is what Michonnes confirmed during last weeks episode. She took a warm bed over friendship after they had spent nearly a year together surviving the ZA. Michonne saw that Andrea was not willing to give up that comfort no matter what she may have or would have told her so why bother trying to say anything to convince her. I can see that in the story without thinking it is bad writing.

Judari explained her side quite well but maybe you can expand your reasoning somewhat? what facts are you thinking of that Andrea blatantly refused ?

I'm not trying to provoke you...I'm genuinely curious about what lead you to this determination

[SteadyEddie]

I don't get Carol'sidea at all it seems like a suicide plan tbh. So she has sex with the guv then slits his throat!? Then what? Are Rick and co going to extract her from the apartment?

I think Andrea is going to kill the governor in the end. I think that's going to be her raison d'etre, honestly. Killing him in his sleep would have been too anticlimactic.

[Deadpelican]

Not stepping in for the other poster but these are a couple that i noticed.

1. Refuses to let them have their weapons back or leave the town and is ok with that
2. Witnesses Fights in a zombie pit (takes the Guvs word it is all just blowing of steam for the town)
3. Helping milton expirement on an old dying dude
4. Seeing the dead soldiers head in a tank when she had also seen him alive in the hospital
5. Gets lectured like a child for going over the wall by the Guv and is just fine with it

I am sure there is a ton that i missed maybe other people will chime in on this subject. My point which i maybe did not explain well is what Michonnes confirmed during last weeks episode. She took a warm bed over friendship after they had spent nearly a year together surviving the ZA. Michonne saw that Andrea was not willing to give up that comfort no matter what she may have or would have told her so why bother trying to say anything to convince her. I can see that in the story without thinking it is bad writing.

Thank you. If this isn't enough to convince Andrea that there's something wrong with Woodbury, then I don't know what is.

[Valleyaggie]

I don't get Carol'sidea at all it seems like a suicide plan tbh. So she has sex with the guv then slits his throat!? Then what? Are Rick and co going to extract her from the apartment?

I've seen several people say this. I think it would be very possible for her to get out. It's the middle of the night. She could have cut TG's throat without a sound and then find a way to slip over one of the side walls. It wouldn't be easy for her to get out of Woodbury but her main concern would be getting over the wall and then avoiding the walkers. TG's body wouldn't be discovered until morning so she would have at least a few hours to accomplish this.

[SugarSkull]

1. Took weapons but had a plausible reason......I'll give you 50% on the leavening thing....because he did wishy-wash on letting them leave but in the end he did give them the choice to leave

2. It was staged entertainment....Andrea didn't like it but who is she to tell the town to change....this to me is a negative about the town but no anyway a sign that they are crazy ....I think TG explained this very nicely and convincingly

3. how is this different then what Jenner was doing...they are trying to understand the za

4. I'll have to check this one out...I can't remember is Andrea actually got to meet the Helicopter soldier ??...if not I don't see why she would be able to pinpoint his head out of a whole bunch of decomposing walker heads..its not like she had a chance to study them and decided if they looked familiar LOL

5.so what?..its annoying true but no indication of an evil dictator : ) ....maybe she liked to be reprimanded LOL...reminded her of the good ole days with Dale !

the only thing that would put up a read flag is the head thing and I think that is a long shot that Andrea actually say the Helo guy and just ignored it ...the rest is easly explained away with out much effort at all .....honestly I don't think I would walk away from a nice town with people and food and protection with out more of a reason too


FYI I don't think Andrea is perfect by any means and she does need to open her eyes a bit ...I just think people are a little unrealistic or a lttle too overly critical of her

[SugarSkull]

I've seen several people say this. I think it would be very possible for her to get out. It's the middle of the night. She could have cut TG's throat without a sound and then find a way to slip over one of the side walls. It wouldn't be easy for her to get out of Woodbury but her main concern would be getting over the wall and then avoiding the walkers. TG's body wouldn't be discovered until morning so she would have at least a few hours to accomplish this.

I think it would be possible for her to get out but really really stupid.....your going to run thought the woods , at night , no car , maybe a gun , and hope to reach the prison with out being eaten ....or running into a heard ?

Isn't that how Andrea almost died running from the Farm? ....Oh hell naw!

[Serenity@sea]

1. Took weapons but had a plausible reason......I'll give you 50% on the leavening thing....because he did wishy-wash on letting them leave but in the end he did give them the choice to leave

2. It was staged entertainment....Andrea didn't like it but who is she to tell the town to change....this to me is a negative about the town but no anyway a sign that they are crazy ....I think TG explained this very nicely and convincingly

3. how is this different then what Jenner was doing...they are trying to understand the za

4. I'll have to check this one out...I can't remember is Andrea actually got to meet the Helicopter soldier ??...if not I don't see why she would be able to pinpoint his head out of a whole bunch of decomposing walker heads..its not like she had a chance to study them and decided if they looked familiar LOL

5.so what?..its annoying true but no indication of an evil dictator : ) ....maybe she liked to be reprimanded LOL...reminded her of the good ole days with Dale !

the only thing that would put up a read flag is the head thing and I think that is a long shot that Andrea actually say the Helo guy and just ignored it ...the rest is easly explained away with out much effort at all .....honestly I don't think I would walk away from a nice town with people and food and protection with out more of a reason too


FYI I don't think Andrea is perfect by any means and she does need to open her eyes a bit ...I just think people are a little unrealistic or a lttle too overly critical of her

Michonne recognized the pilot, so it is safe to say that Andrea would have too.

I see fault on both Michonne and Andrea's sides on their relationship falling apart. IMO, Andrea's biggest fault was being too naive (maybe a little denial, as well) and Michonne's biggest fault was lack of communication.

[SugarSkull]

Michonne recognized the pilot, so it is safe to say that Andrea would have too.

I see fault on both Michonne and Andrea's sides on their relationship falling apart. IMO, Andrea's biggest fault was being too naive (maybe a little denial, as well) and Michonne's biggest fault was lack of communication.

I agree 100% there is fault on both sides

But as far as assuming they both saw the Pilot? maybe maybe not....I think there is some grey area here ....You have to remember Andrea was super sick when this went down...she was passing in and out of consiousness when they were taken ...how clear headed was she to get a look at the Pilot? and remember him later rotting in a fish tank?

I'm not saying your wrong because its been a while since I watched that ep and I can't remember if she saw him later on ? ....just food for thought on that scenario

[Malise]

I've seen several people say this. I think it would be very possible for her to get out. It's the middle of the night. She could have cut TG's throat without a sound and then find a way to slip over one of the side walls. It wouldn't be easy for her to get out of Woodbury but her main concern would be getting over the wall and then avoiding the walkers. TG's body wouldn't be discovered until morning so she would have at least a few hours to accomplish this.

[SteadyEddie]

Yeah, the trick would be avoiding the walkers once she' s out in the open and vulnerable.
People criticize the "pet walker" thing, but I think it's been shown on the TV series it's not foolproof. However, Michonne had two of them, and she also had a katana to quickly dispatch any walker that tried to sniff her out.

[theglassintheguvseye]

I may be giving Andrea too much credit here but I think she's biding her time, knowing that WB is starting to crack and that she doesn't have to act now. She knows how society works and knows she has potential allies just waiting to wake up as she now has. I also think that she wants to save as many WB folks as she cans once she does act. No, we don't care about the people of WB but her character certainly does. She's lost her sister, Dale and many friends and I think she has a little bit of Dale in her and wants to retain a fragment of humanity in the world. If not she would have slit TG's throat and made a run for it. During her 'attempt', she thought about the consequences for everyone, not just herself.

[Judari]

Andrea has demonstrated over and over that facts don't matter to her and you're demanding to know why Michonne didn't give her the facts? Okay then.

Yeah, except I just explained how once Andrea found out facts the writers stalled by having Milton interrupt her and the Gov's confrontations twice and put urgent events that had to be taken care of "right now" in the way. Did you want this confrontation to happen off camera? Regardless, this doesn't prove that Andrea would have ignored Michonne's facts (which really weren't even facts, only circumstantial evidence) but Michonne never gave her the chance. You have nothing to back up the claim Andrea ignored facts. Wasn't made aware of them? Yes. But she didn't ignore facts unless you expected her to mind read. All the "facts" Michonne had she gathered from snooping around, Andrea didn't snoop. So please tell me how it was so obvious to her and she ignored them?

Funny how I just explained all of this yet you chose to respond to a single sentence which content I already addressed.

Michonne recognized the pilot, so it is safe to say that Andrea would have too.

This is something I have been wondering about too. Didn't the Gov also keep Michonne's walker's heads as well? Andrea would have recognized those too. Granted everything was smashed and when she walked in she came in to the one-eyed Gov in hysterics over a walker child with Michonne about to shank him. Not really saying that is an excuse but I wish they wouldn't have left that question to be answered. She did see the heads and ask about them but I don't think she looked close enough.

[Serenity@sea]

I agree 100% there is fault on both sides

But as far as assuming they both saw the Pilot? maybe maybe not....I think there is some grey area here ....You have to remember Andrea was super sick when this went down...she was passing in and out of consiousness when they were taken ...how clear headed was she to get a look at the Pilot? and remember him later rotting in a fish tank?

I'm not saying your wrong because its been a while since I watched that ep and I can't remember if she saw him later on ? ....just food for thought on that scenario

Fair enough on the pilot head.
I do feel that the heads in the tanks should have been a wake up call for Andrea to begin with, though. I wouldn't have bought that trophy explanation from the Guv. It isn't the same as Michonne's pets or Hershel's barn walkers. Neither of those cases were about keeping walkers as trophies.

[SugarSkull]

Fair enough on the pilot head.
I do feel that the heads in the tanks should have been a wake up call for Andrea to begin with, though. I wouldn't have bought that trophy explanation from the Guv. It isn't the same as Michonne's pets or Hershel's barn walkers. Neither of those cases were about keeping walkers as trophies.

I agree that it should have potentially raised some flags ...and I think it did for Andrea somewhat , she did start to question TG more and she did seem at least to me a little more discontent about what was starting to happen in WB...maybe not as much as it should granted


I think to you and me ( the audience who get to see all the crazy) its obvious that the heads are nothing like the walker pets or Hershel's barn ...but when your in the middle of it and you have seen people keep zombies before for what ever reason its a little bit harder to assume it automatically points to someone is a bad person .....everyone blasted Andrea in season two about being to rash and hotheaded ...jumping in the sh*t before thinking....now she is taking her sweet time to consider all angles and people blast her for that too....girl can't win to lose

[Dr Cank]

I do feel that the heads in the tanks should have been a wake up call for Andrea to begin with, though. I wouldn't have bought that trophy explanation from the Guv.

I may be missing something in your train of thought but the Guv never said they were trophies. He told Andrea the he kept the heads to remind him of the dangers on the outside of the walls (paraphrasing). Now i thought that was great writing because much like reality he is feeding his women a half-truth. Trust me I do this all the time, not about my head collection but rather about simple things like why I forgot to take out the trash. IMO opinion the heads are mostly trophies but I am sure there is a root to the story he told Andrea.

just conjecture but for the sake of argument:

say he happens to decapitate a significant foe, like the bitter that got penny. he thinks this is the head of the monster that took my daughter it to important to just throw it in the pile of the dead. so he puts in a fish tank. few days pass and he stops to think "damn it is really crazy how I have this head in this fish tank". but deep down he doesn't want to discard it so he convinces himself I need this thing, starring at it makes me stronger. I need to prepare myself for whats waiting for me outside of woodbury. Then it just becomes a slippery slope till eventually it's "shoot yeah, got me a whole squad of gaurdsmen" puttin' that head in the tank.

no it is not logical to keep a bunch of decapitated heads but they do live in a rather stressful world. personally I think keeping heads is much more therapeutic than imagining your dead wife is stalking you.

But back to my point, than your girl catches you with all these heads you can say:

1. yeah i just couldn't get rid of that and dive into a story about its acquisition or

2. relay the half-truth/lie you've already told yourself a hundred times about needing them as a reminder of the danger outside.

Just wait till she finds his porn collection, than he will really need to be thinking fast.

[DeadInDetroit]

I was kind of surprised myself because I found myself liking this episode. It may not be as action packed as the last one but it sure is as relevant to the story. I liked the Merle/Hershel talk. it showed a different kind of Merle (so he used to read the Bible... parents to blame?) and i liked how he lays out the horror of what is to come when the Governor comes back after "Ringing the Doorbell" . I was just a bit, bit, shocked that Carol would say such thing to Andrea because it is very unlike her character (post apocalyptic symptom?) . the 'Strolling the Walker' part is cool. The Beth singing part is also awesome. I loved how Carl figuratively bitch slapped rick to show him he needs to take a break and i liked how Hershel yelled at Rick ftft. The Andrea/Michone h2h is the standout part for me. I do not know if Rick gave Andrea the knife and the gun for protection purposes or for assassination purposes. did he know about what Carol told Andrea? IDK! The Andrea/Phillip ending part does not excite me for the next episode though.... i kinda know she is not gonna stab him. IMO, its an A-

I thought it was odd Carol would say that to Andrea too (although badass!), i thought it was out of character, especially when Glenn wanted to go "put a bullet in TGs head", Carol said "we're not assassins!"..

After more thought, its not too unusual because Carol saw some of TGs wrath. She saw he was willing to come to the prison an kill people an use walkers against them. She also stood next to Axel as TG blew his brains out (she even needed his body for protection!) I think she was like "fuck this guy, he needs to go!" An knew Andrea was close enough to him to accomplish that...


I wish they wouldve pleaded more with Andrea tho! Carol shouldve been like "Andrea do u even understand how serious this is? TG is gonna come slaughter us all! Even little Carl, the baby,young Beth an Hershel! We are all DEAD if u dont do somethin!"

Also, Maggie shouldve told Andrea what TG did to her!!! Why wouldnt she tell her!?!?!?!

[Dr Cank]

Also about the whole pilot head thing.

your Andrea and you walk in on michonne sword out, dead little walker, guv with one eye and a collection of heads strode around the room and you actually blame her not saying "wait a minute, is that the pilot's head?". Really how observant do you think people are? Sugarskull made an excellent argument about her condition when she may have first seen the pilot (see above). but that argument shouldn't be required it is not unrealistic that she wouldn't have identified each individual head. As previously stated there was a lot going on at the time. and I doubt the Guv asked if she would help clean up his decapitated head mess (that's what Milton's for ).

and please don't find my statement too misogynistic but: Bill gates has a hot wife because he has money, the Guv has Andrea because he offers safety. not saying that there isn't a tipping point but she wintered with the dead. Forgiving Phillip for his flaws and having a safe place to sleep is probably a harder internal debate than most of you are willing to allow.

This is a gray world they live black and white need not survive.

[Serenity@sea]

I may be missing something in your train of thought but the Guv never said they were trophies. He told Andrea the he kept the heads to remind him of the dangers on the outside of the walls (paraphrasing). Now i thought that was great writing because much like reality he is feeding his women a half-truth. Trust me I do this all the time, not about my head collection but rather about simple things like why I forgot to take out the trash. IMO opinion the heads are mostly trophies but I am sure there is a root to the story he told Andrea.

just conjecture but for the sake of argument:

say he happens to decapitate a significant foe, like the bitter that got penny. he thinks this is the head of the monster that took my daughter it to important to just throw it in the pile of the dead. so he puts in a fish tank. few days pass and he stops to think "damn it is really crazy how I have this head in this fish tank". but deep down he doesn't want to discard it so he convinces himself I need this thing, starring at it makes me stronger. I need to prepare myself for whats waiting for me outside of woodbury. Then it just becomes a slippery slope till eventually it's "shoot yeah, got me a whole squad of gaurdsmen" puttin' that head in the tank.

no it is not logical to keep a bunch of decapitated heads but they do live in a rather stressful world. personally I think keeping heads is much more therapeutic than imagining your dead wife is stalking you.

But back to my point, than your girl catches you with all these heads you can say:

1. yeah i just couldn't get rid of that and dive into a story about its acquisition or

2. relay the half-truth/lie you've already told yourself a hundred times about needing them as a reminder of the danger outside.

Just wait till she finds his porn collection, than he will really need to be thinking fast.

I understand that he told Andrea that he kept the heads as a reminder of the dangers outside. However, I think that most people who saw them displayed as they were, would understand that it was more like a shrine. Hence, the trophy connection.

Regarding your conjecture, human beings are cabable of justifing all kinds of reasons for doing the things they do. That doesn't mean that Andrea should just accept any line of BS that he hands her. She is an intelligent women. She was a civil rights attorney. Too many time she accepted his excuses without really devling into it too deeply. Judari is correct that they were interrupted but that should have raised some red flags that made her investigate on her own (like Michonne did).
Which leads me to believe that Andrea was blinded by love for not only the Govenor but also to the very idea of this safe haven.
I don't think that anyone is stating that it a black and white issue. It's very complicated and that is one of the reasons I love TWD. I love all the shades of grey.

[Dr Cank]

Serenity@Sea, very well put.

I wasn't directing the black and white comment to you in particular. let me preface my next comment by saying I have not read the comics/graphic novel. but a lot of people are always attacking Andrea for not being Andrea. Thus every decision the TV Andrea makes is wrong or ignorant, well that's just not fair. She may not be my favorite character but she seems rather consistent (in her evolution) too me. I can see a lot of her decisions as being foolish or erratic but I do think the character is believable. We do agree on one thing :

It's very complicated and that is one of the reasons I love TWD. I love all the shades of grey.

[Blasko_Z]

Serenity@Sea, very well put.

I wasn't directing the black and white comment to you in particular. let me preface my next comment by saying I have not read the comics/graphic novel. but a lot of people are always attacking Andrea for not being Andrea. Thus every decision the TV Andrea makes is wrong or ignorant, well that's just not fair. She may not be my favorite character but she seems rather consistent (in her evolution) too me. I can see a lot of her decisions as being foolish or erratic but I do think the character is believable. We do agree on one thing :

It's very complicated and that is one of the reasons I love TWD. I love all the shades of grey.

I agree about Andrea. I have kept up with the graphic novel, but it seems like a lot of people are writing her into a corner in their own minds. It seems that many aren't giving her the room to become her own character. Instead, they are insisting she be like her comics counterpart.

[alamozombie]

Even if Andrea did not recognize any heads.... just the fact that he has a dead zombie child and a hidden room full of heads should raise some flags in Andreas head that maybe WB is not the idelistic place she might think it is. Also the whole everyone panicking trying to leave and the Guvs hench men ready to shoot people and not allow them the free will to leave should also have raised some flags with Andrea. Look i agree with anothe rposter that said it was not black and white. I think that Michonne was perceptive enough to see that no matter what she tried to tell Andrea that it was not going to matter because Andrea was tired of fighting and surviving and wanted the creature comforts and everything to seem normal again. So why say anything to her to convince her otherwise.

Also about the whole pilot head thing.

your Andrea and you walk in on michonne sword out, dead little walker, guv with one eye and a collection of heads strode around the room and you actually blame her not saying "wait a minute, is that the pilot's head?". Really how observant do you think people are? Sugarskull made an excellent argument about her condition when she may have first seen the pilot (see above). but that argument shouldn't be required it is not unrealistic that she wouldn't have identified each individual head. As previously stated there was a lot going on at the time. and I doubt the Guv asked if she would help clean up his decapitated head mess (that's what Milton's for ).

and please don't find my statement too misogynistic but: Bill gates has a hot wife because he has money, the Guv has Andrea because he offers safety. not saying that there isn't a tipping point but she wintered with the dead. Forgiving Phillip for his flaws and having a safe place to sleep is probably a harder internal debate than most of you are willing to allow.

This is a gray world they live black and white need not survive.