[Blasko_Z]

THANK YOU.

There are some dubious claims in this forum about "bad writing." I prefer this method of story telling personally.

I personally hate sequences of expository dialogue that tell you what to think when you sorta get the idea already.

I mean, do we really need for Michonne to tell Andrea "This place is surrounded by a wall, armed guards, and there's a curfew. It's clear to me that people are not allowed to come and go as they please whenever they want and that the governor is a control freak. And they took away our weapons. This feels like some kind of prison camp in my opinion."

Uh, no.

I don't need to hear that and personally think it would be a bit silly to go into all that.

I agree with you. I do believe that there are places in the show where a little expository dialogue would benefit the show immensely, but on the whole, character's motivations can be derived from the information that's been given.

[Judari]

THANK YOU.

There are some dubious claims in this forum about "bad writing." I prefer this method of story telling personally.

I personally hate sequences of expository dialogue that tell you what to think when you sorta get the idea already.

I mean, do we really need for Michonne to tell Andrea "This place is surrounded by a wall, armed guards, and there's a curfew. It's clear to me that people are not allowed to come and go as they please whenever they want and that the governor is a control freak. And they took away our weapons. This feels like some kind of prison camp in my opinion."

Uh, no.

I don't need to hear that and personally think it would be a bit silly to go into all that.

No but her saying, "Hey I think this guy is lying about finding the soldiers already dead because there was bullet holes and fresh blood on the tank. Also he might be a crazy psycho because he had some girls name scrawled over his notebook for pages." or better yet, "Hey you know I was just about to kill this guy when you came in because he sent Merle to kill me and he kidnapped your friends and OH they are here right now trying to escape. And btw he IS crazyballs because look there is even the head of the military guy he 'saved' in a tank."


Sorry, but this method of story telling I believe is just called bad writing :/ No reason why these things shouldn't have been said at that time.

[alamozombie]

If i put myself in Michonnes shoes. After watching over you when sick and helping you out for almost a year out in the world just surviving i am thinking if i say trust me we need to leave here like Michonne said. Andrea refuses to listen it is at that point you know she will not listen to anything you say no matter what it is. So why say anything at all to Andrea when Michonne could tell from the start and confirmed in last weeks episode you were taken by him as soon as you saw him (sorry paraphrasing)

No but her saying, "Hey I think this guy is lying about finding the soldiers already dead because there was bullet holes and fresh blood on the tank. Also he might be a crazy psycho because he had some girls name scrawled over his notebook for pages." or better yet, "Hey you know I was just about to kill this guy when you came in because he sent Merle to kill me and he kidnapped your friends and OH they are here right now trying to escape. And btw he IS crazyballs because look there is even the head of the military guy he 'saved' in a tank."


Sorry, but this method of story telling I believe is just called bad writing :/ No reason why these things shouldn't have been said at that time.

[leon the pig farmer]

I saw next weeks show, it looks promising.

Fingers crossed...........

[MisterPriz]

I don't normally post in the review thread ... mainly because after I get caught up on the entire thread (and yes, I read them all) everything I thought of (and more) has been covered. You people have such great insight.

However, in this episode it seems most people think what Rick likely saw through his binoculars was one of TG's snipers.

In white?? Ummm ... no. The whole idea of being a sniper is to lay in wait from a distance ... silently and unnoticed. You wait and wait until your victim comes out in the open ... then you pop a cap in their dome. Hopefully, others follow suit and you take them out as well, while never giving away your position.

I know TG's makeshift army isn't properly trained in sniper techniques .... but who the hell would wear white? There's a reason white is the color of a flag of truce ... it sticks out like a sore thumb!! Certainly they had some of the National Guard camo uniforms back at Woodbury. Or some earth tones. Or even black and gray clothes. But white??? Sorry ... ain't buying that.

So if not a sniper, then who? Andrea wasn't there yet. Tyreese's group had departed (and I don't think any of them were wearing white). Doubt it was a walker in a clean white shirt. Maybe another survivor passing by? Unlikely.

No ... I think it was a brief halLORInation.

I'd like to think what we witnessed (without one word of dialogue) was the beginning of Rick's healing process. In the previous episode he admitted to Hershel that he was seeing things ... seeing Lori. By doing so, he finally admitted it to himself.

So in this episode he sees the white pop out from behind the tree ... he lowers his binoculars ... collects his thoughts. If we could have heard the voice in the back of his mind, it was probably saying, "Rick old buddy, you're doing it again. That's not Lori out there ... and it sure as hell isn't a sniper because MisterPriz was right when he posted in the thread that only an idiot sniper would wear white. Now get a hold of yourself ... we've got some serious work to do."

Then he raises his binoculars and goes back to scanning the brush for possible threats. The healing process has begun.

That was my take on that scene.

[Steph]

That was exactly my take on it too, and I loved how you could see Rick reign in the crazy and shake it off. Step one in the right direction out of Crazytown.

[SugarSkull]

Yup that is what I thought too.....I thought it was pretty obvious it was "lori"

[Valleyaggie]

Agreed.

[TangoJ]

Bitches love baseball caps.

Thank you for making me laugh hysterically until my lungs almost collapsed. I needed that today.

[TangoJ]

I don't normally post in the review thread ... mainly because after I get caught up on the entire thread (and yes, I read them all) everything I thought of (and more) has been covered. You people have such great insight.

However, in this episode it seems most people think what Rick likely saw through his binoculars was one of TG's snipers.

In white?? Ummm ... no. The whole idea of being a sniper is to lay in wait from a distance ... silently and unnoticed. You wait and wait until your victim comes out in the open ... then you pop a cap in their dome. Hopefully, others follow suit and you take them out as well, while never giving away your position.

I know TG's makeshift army isn't properly trained in sniper techniques .... but who the hell would wear white? There's a reason white is the color of a flag of truce ... it sticks out like a sore thumb!! Certainly they had some of the National Guard camo uniforms back at Woodbury. Or some earth tones. Or even black and gray clothes. But white??? Sorry ... ain't buying that.

So if not a sniper, then who? Andrea wasn't there yet. Tyreese's group had departed (and I don't think any of them were wearing white). Doubt it was a walker in a clean white shirt. Maybe another survivor passing by? Unlikely.

No ... I think it was a brief halLORInation.

I'd like to think what we witnessed (without one word of dialogue) was the beginning of Rick's healing process. In the previous episode he admitted to Hershel that he was seeing things ... seeing Lori. By doing so, he finally admitted it to himself.

So in this episode he sees the white pop out from behind the tree ... he lowers his binoculars ... collects his thoughts. If we could have heard the voice in the back of his mind, it was probably saying, "Rick old buddy, you're doing it again. That's not Lori out there ... and it sure as hell isn't a sniper because MisterPriz was right when he posted in the thread that only an idiot sniper would wear white. Now get a hold of yourself ... we've got some serious work to do."

Then he raises his binoculars and goes back to scanning the brush for possible threats. The healing process has begun.

That was my take on that scene.

Agree 110% with everything you said.

[SteadyEddie]

If the critics and know it alls had their way with this show it would be ridiculous, amateurish and boring. Thank you, Deadpelican for saying it better than I could have. I think people have other motivations to try to jump on the nitpicking bandwagon.

THANK YOU.

There are some dubious claims in this forum about "bad writing." I prefer this method of story telling personally.

I personally hate sequences of expository dialogue that tell you what to think when you sorta get the idea already.

I mean, do we really need for Michonne to tell Andrea "This place is surrounded by a wall, armed guards, and there's a curfew. It's clear to me that people are not allowed to come and go as they please whenever they want and that the governor is a control freak. And they took away our weapons. This feels like some kind of prison camp in my opinion."

Uh, no.

I don't need to hear that and personally think it would be a bit silly to go into all that.

[Judari]

If i put myself in Michonnes shoes. After watching over you when sick and helping you out for almost a year out in the world just surviving i am thinking if i say trust me we need to leave here like Michonne said. Andrea refuses to listen it is at that point you know she will not listen to anything you say no matter what it is. So why say anything at all to Andrea when Michonne could tell from the start and confirmed in last weeks episode you were taken by him as soon as you saw him (sorry paraphrasing)

I also put myself in Andrea's shoes. I'm not some sheep just because you are my friend. If I want to do something and you don't agree I am all for listening to your view, as was Andrea, but you have to give me something to go on as we are friends not parent/child. That gets multiplied when its ZA and my life is on the line following you out into the wild versus leaving somewhere I believe to be safe. Being a good friend involves good communication. Andrea kept asking Michonne why and she never said anything. You could see the surprise and horror Andrea had when the group did tell her the Gov's misdeeds. She had no hard evidence of anything at that point either, it was their word against the Gov's but she believed them over the Gov without question (although she was clearly hurt and confused). Michonne never gave her that chance. .

Also it was never confirmed that Andrea was blinded by the Gov, that was only Michonne's opinion and a bad one at that. She threw a juvenile fit last episode over Andrea "choosing" the Gov when she was the one who stormed off pouting when Andrea didn't give in to her without question. Let's not forget she said she came back to kill the Gov because she knew it would hurt Andrea, not to protect her, not because they were friends, but to hurt her. Immaturity at its best which honestly I thought Michonne was above. Can't blame that on anything else but bad writing.

[Steph]

I also put myself in Andrea's shoes. I'm not some sheep just because you are my friend. If I want to do something and you don't agree I am all for listening to your view, as was Andrea, but you have to give me something to go on as we are friends not parent/child. That gets multiplied when its ZA and my life is on the line following you out into the wild versus leaving somewhere I believe to be safe. Being a good friend involves good communication. Andrea kept asking Michonne why and she never said anything. You could see the surprise and horror Andrea had when the group did tell her the Gov's misdeeds. She had no hard evidence of anything at that point either, it was their word against the Gov's but she believed them over the Gov without question (although she was clearly hurt and confused). Michonne never gave her that chance. .

Also it was never confirmed that Andrea was blinded by the Gov, that was only Michonne's opinion and a bad one at that. She threw a juvenile fit last episode over Andrea "choosing" the Gov when she was the one who stormed off pouting when Andrea didn't give in to her without question. Let's not forget she said she came back to kill the Gov because she knew it would hurt Andrea, not to protect her, not because they were friends, but to hurt her. Immaturity at its best which honestly I thought Michonne was above. Can't blame that on anything else but bad writing.

As I agree with the first part of your post, it was pretty clear that Andrea was wooed by the Guv. She was making eyes at him and flirting, spending more and more time with him before finally sleeping with him. So I do think she was blinded by him, the way a lot of women get when they find a man. For some women, they put blinders on and I think she did when it came to him.

[Serenity@sea]

As I agree with the first part of your post, it was pretty clear that Andrea was wooed by the Guv. She was making eyes at him and flirting, spending more and more time with him before finally sleeping with him. So I do think she was blinded by him, the way a lot of women get when they find a man. For some women, they put blinders on and I think she did when it came to him.

Ha. I was just about to post the same thing. If you are boffing a psychopath, it safe to assume that you are blinded by them.
I also wouldn't call Michonne admitting that she wanted Andrea hurt "bad writing". It does seem fitting with her character that she is revenge motivated. It does seem that she has some problems with being emotionally immature.

[backwoodsroamer]

I also wouldn't call Michonne admitting that she wanted Andrea hurt "bad writing". It does seem fitting with her character that she is revenge motivated. It does seem that she has some problems with being emotionally immature.

Who you calling emotionally immature, Willis? Getting even has given me a great sense of joy many times in my life. There are few things that warm the heart more than seeing an enemy suffer.

Put me down for thinking the flash of white in the tree line was an aborted Lorilucination too. As an occasional stroller in Crazytown myself, I can tell you that scene was fairly realistic to me. Sometimes you just have to stop for a second, get your s##t together, and say "Nah, we ain't gonna go there again."

I'm gonna call down the flames on myself here and say that many examples put forth as "bad writing" in this thread, and I'm not talking about you here Serenity, may be from people expecting a character to behave in a certain manner without ever actually having been in or seen someone in a similar situation.

Sure there are some gaps in the storyline here and there. With the exception of the dead walking though, real life is much, much freakier than many of the behaviors shown in the series. As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Serenity@sea]

Who you calling emotionally immature, Willis? Getting even has given me a great sense of joy many times in my life. There are few things that warm the heart more than seeing an enemy suffer.

Put me down for thinking the flash of white in the tree line was an aborted Lorilucination too. As an occasional stroller in Crazytown myself, I can tell you that scene was fairly realistic to me. Sometimes you just have to stop for a second, get your s##t together, and say "Nah, we ain't gonna go there again."

I'm gonna call down the flames on myself here and say that many examples put forth as "bad writing" in this thread, and I'm not talking about you here Serenity, may be from people expecting a character to behave in a certain manner without ever actually having been in or seen someone in a similar situation.

Sure there are some gaps in the storyline here and there. With the exception of the dead walking though, real life is much, much freakier than many of the behaviors shown in the series. As Shakespeare wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

By the emotionally immature comment, I meant that she has trouble expressing herself. That, Andrea hurt her, so it was immature that she wanted to hurt Andrea back.
You, on the other hand, most definitely do not have any problems expressing yourself.

[Timbersnake]

Even though this episode had a slower pace I liked it.
My only complain is that after watching it I feel like it didn't achieve much at all for the prison group.
The front yard of the prison is still filled with walkers, the group didn't go for more weapons and ammunition, no shooting practice. The only plan they have was Carol's which apparently didn't work since Andrea didn't want to kill the gov.
I feel like them just sitting there with snipers guarding the prison is not preparing for war at all.

Meanwhile at the prison they are raising an army, improving their defenses and now they have another 4 fighters on Tyreese group.

I enjoyed Merle Hershel scene, it felt like they understand each other.
Im just a bit worried about Glenn and Daryl. I like them both, I don't want them to fight because of Merle.

I doubt the Army will be very brave when bullets fly at them.

Between Glen and Daryl, I would have to go to Daryl, though I think Glen likes Daryl and hates Merle, as I probably would if I was Glen.

[backwoodsroamer]

You, on the other hand, most definitely do not have any problems expressing yourself.

Huh wadda ya know, I always considered myself the shy, shrinking violet type.

[Judari]

As I agree with the first part of your post, it was pretty clear that Andrea was wooed by the Guv. She was making eyes at him and flirting, spending more and more time with him before finally sleeping with him. So I do think she was blinded by him, the way a lot of women get when they find a man. For some women, they put blinders on and I think she did when it came to him.

Oh for sure she was wooed by him but its not as if she had any information to go off that he was bad but just chose to ignore it. That is what I would consider to be blinded by love. While I agree anyone in a relationship can choose to overlook or not see something, that wasn't the case for Andrea. She did not know about the bloody tank, the notebook, or initially discover the caged walkers Michonne did, and Michonne did not explain them to her. Basically all she had to go off of is her friend did not like/approve of the guy who she had interest in without being given a valid reason. This happens in RL so often regardless if the friend is right or wrong about the guy. You agreed with the first part of my post but in that part I do point out when reasons have been given and it has come down to the Gov's word against the groups or Michonne's Andrea believes them over the Gov every time. For a person blinded by love that would not be the case, they would still choose to believe the person they were in love with despite any reasons or evidence given.

Ha. I was just about to post the same thing. If you are boffing a psychopath, it safe to assume that you are blinded by them.
I also wouldn't call Michonne admitting that she wanted Andrea hurt "bad writing". It does seem fitting with her character that she is revenge motivated. It does seem that she has some problems with being emotionally immature.

Sorry maybe I should have been more clear. I meant to more blame bad writing on why Michonne wouldn't choose to say anything to Andrea initially despite how "close" they are supposed to be. I mean I have definitely beat this bush before but if they were supposed to be so "close" than this writing doesn't make sense as it isn't consistent with a close friendship and therefore, bad writing. If they weren't supposed to be close from the beginning and just together out of circumstance it is a different story. However because both actresses had been interviewed saying how close these two were I can only really go off of that versus what we actually see until they or Mazzara address it again to clarify.

I don't take any issue with her character being revengeful, especially towards the Gov, I agree it is fitting. However revengeful towards her friend who she is "so close" to instead of wanting to help her? Hm, perhaps... but it just seems like a stretch. Maybe her character is supposed to be emotionally immature and that is the reason for her silence rather than "strong silent type"? Also possible. We haven't had that much from her so it could totally be the case but if that is true then it is a waste of a potentially awesome character. I dare say she is on her way to be the next Lori then because she is showing the same level of emotional maturely that woman had in S2.

Hopefully I am wrong and next episode we will get to see more of who she really is.

[Tay]

That doesn't address the issue he brought up. A few episodes ago we were dealing with psychic Michonne, who just somehow knew, despite not having any evidence, that The Governor was a shady character. Her hatred for him based on a gut instinct was enough to her to give up a safe haven and try to kill the man. Fast forward and now she's willing to tolerate not only living in the same space as Merle, a guy who makes no effort to hide what a scumbag he is and actively tried to kill her, but lets him get within 5 feet of her and offer up bogus apologies.

That's inconsistent writing.

Is she not supposed to be wary about being brought into a place she doesn't know about with people she doesn't know. When they got there, he took her sword, and Michonne doesn't like to be without her sword. And then she finds out that he has caged walkers, so is she not supposed to be suspicious by that?

As far as the Merle thing, she has no choice. Darryl has already established that if Merle can't stay, he won't.

[daenerys]

I really enjoyed this episode. Andrea was very brave to go and visit Rick and then return to the Gov. I am thinking he is going to turn on her very soon though, at the moment he's just watching her and biding his time. I wasn't surprised when she couldn't kill him. In her heart I think she still hopes the two groups will be able to work out their conflicts without bloodshed.

I love the tension Merle brings to the show and his dynamics with Daryl. Michonne was also great and I was pleased she finally started to talk a bit too.

My one moan this episode was the singing at the end. We've already had a singing monologue so I didn't feel the need for another. Other than that, I loved the episode and can't wait until next week.

[Deadpelican]

No but her saying, "Hey I think this guy is lying about finding the soldiers already dead because there was bullet holes and fresh blood on the tank. Also he might be a crazy psycho because he had some girls name scrawled over his notebook for pages." or better yet, "Hey you know I was just about to kill this guy when you came in because he sent Merle to kill me and he kidnapped your friends and OH they are here right now trying to escape. And btw he IS crazyballs because look there is even the head of the military guy he 'saved' in a tank."

I think Michonne's silence on this subject has been more than adequately explained.

In "I Ain't no Judas," Michonne tells Andrea that "I knew you were under (the Governor's) spell from the second you laid eyes on him."

What exactly would have happened if Michonne had told her about the blood and the bullet holes in the army vehicles?

Andrea would have rationalized it away or, even worse, told the governor what Michonne had said.

Andrea demonstrated again and again and again that she is oblivious to the truth about the governor.

She saw, with her own eyes the barbaric spectacle in the arena with Merle, Martinez and the walkers. She knew that Michone had sliced and diced the governor's collection of walkers (I repeat- the governor was keeping a collection of WALKERS).

Andrea was already confronted (many times) with ample evidence that the governor was a loon, but she ignored it.

And you're wondering why Michonne didn't tell her about Glenn and Maggie being captured or Merle trying to kill her?

Seriously, what would it have accomplished?

[Judari]

I think Michonne's silence on this subject has been more than adequately explained.

In "I Ain't no Judas," Michonne tells Andrea that "I knew you were under (the Governor's) spell from the second you laid eyes on him."

Except it hasn't been explained at all... Michonne saying that is her opinion based on absolutely nothing. Andrea didn't start getting involved with the Gov until Michonne left. Andrea was initially critical and questioned almost everything he did or said, even why people call him "the Gov."

If its ZA and you find somewhere you deem as safe then someone is going to have to give you more of a reason why you need to leave other than their "feeling" or "hunch." Whether you personally would consider Woodbury a "mecca" in ZA isn't the point here. The point is Andrea thought it was safe and Michonne did not tell her the reasons she thought it wasn't. These weren't reasons right in front of Andrea's face either. Michonne went digging for them yet still kept them from Andrea.

What exactly would have happened if Michonne had told her about the blood and the bullet holes in the army vehicles?

It would have given Andrea some evidence, even if circumstantial, to doubt the Gov rather than "hunches"

Andrea would have rationalized it away or, even worse, told the governor what Michonne had said.

There has not been one time yet on the show where Andrea was given a legitimate reason against the Gov and took his side or his word over the group's or Michonne's.

Andrea demonstrated again and again and again that she is oblivious to the truth about the governor.

The Gov is very good at explaining himself yet up until the group attacked Woodbury there was never a real reason to doubt him. If she is so hypnotized then why not believe him when he said her friends had changed and are terrorists? Why go to the prison against his wishes? Why believe everyone at the prison when they finally told her the truth about the Gov?

She saw, with her own eyes the barbaric spectacle in the arena with Merle, Martinez and the walkers. She knew that Michone had sliced and diced the governor's collection of walkers (I repeat- the governor was keeping a collection of WALKERS).

Because her and Michonne didn't keep walkers too? I agree that from an outsiders perspective it seems very barbaric and improbable to accept. However, looking at it objectively the worst part about it isn't that they were fighting with walkers but that they were keeping these creatures alive that destroyed their lives and killed so many people they cared about. If you can get desensitized to walkers and being around them, it really isn't a huge leap psychologically speaking, to use them as "props" in fights since you are thinking of them as non-human objects. Of course there is the barbaric aspect of risking lives but that is apart of any style of "arena" fighting. So really the qualm Andrea should have is not with the walkers but with the fighting for sport in general. And I think she would have been upset for longer too if it was not staged.

Andrea was already confronted (many times) with ample evidence that the governor was a loon, but she ignored it.

Actually that's not true. The two times after Andrea had proof enough that the Gov was bad (before she went to the prison to confirm) both of those conversations was interrupted. She confronted him when he was first bandaging his eye but Milton interrupted as they had caught Daryl so that conversation was put on hold by those scenes. Second time she confronted him she was interrupted again by Milton that the towns people were rioting and she needed to come help. It was the third time after that when she confronted him again and then decided after that she was going to the prison herself. When was she confronted before this with ample evidence? You say yourself Michonne never told her anything.

And you're wondering why Michonne didn't tell her about Glenn and Maggie being captured or Merle trying to kill her?

Yeah, actually I am. Well not so much anymore though because Michonne explained part of the reason her going back for the Gov was to hurt Andrea. So it seems Michonne obviously did not care at that point whether Andrea believed her or not. However, later at the prison Michonne did open her mouth and say that the Gov tried to kill her first to which Andrea believed her. So I am wondering why Michonne chose to tell her at that moment when Andrea still as always only has is Michonne's against the Gov's word for evidence? Only reason I can think of is using Michonne's usual silence then to keep Andrea in Woodbury for longer rather than to do what is logical and tell (aka bad writing).

Seriously, what would it have accomplished?

A consistent and logical plot line?



p.s. its late forgive typos

[Deadpelican]

If its ZA and you find somewhere you deem as safe then someone is going to have to give you more of a reason why you need to leave other than their "feeling" or "hunch."

Andrea has demonstrated over and over that facts don't matter to her and you're demanding to know why Michonne didn't give her the facts? Okay then.

[Tay]

Andrea has demonstrated over and over that facts don't matter to her and you're demanding to know why Michonne didn't give her the facts? Okay then.

Exactly. Andrea knows the guy has Walker fights, and keeps heads in fish tanks, but she still goes back to the guy because she's blind. I don't know why people are trying to defend Andrea's actions, yet Michonne is the problem?