[rugter32]

Let's see all the stuff Rick went through before this hallucination and why it makes sense. First off, Lori dies in a way that he probably still blames himself for it (since he didn't make sure Andrew died), then he proceeds to hallucinate phone calls which probably last for quite a while and he clearly doesn't get sleep a few nights during that.
Just when the phonecalls end and he gets some sort of stability, Michonne shows up and not only does he let a stranger into the group (which clearly he doesn't trust) but he learns Glenn and Maggie were kidnapped. He heads out on a rescue mission, and while heading to Woodbury he ends up having to sacrifice the hermit for the survival of the group. Then the attack on Woodbury happens, which is a lot of stress by itself, but the pressure of barely rescuing Glenn and Maggie, seeing Oscar get killed by ANOTHER hallucination and then Daryl being caught and barely rescued doesn't help. Then comes all the issue with Merle and then Daryl leaves him. And right after that, another very close friend of his, Glenn, blows up on him and that causes yet another rift.
He returns to the prison, tells Carol about Daryl, knows the guvna is about to attack the prison at any time and he has to decide if he accepts the group or not. And to him, that feels like damned if you do damned if you don't. If they turn out to be bad people and kill someone, the blame's on him, he feels. If they turn out to be good people, he feels he'll cause their deaths somehow, which once more, he'd blame himself for. And when he comes close to accepting them, there's the reminder of what happened to Lori and finally he breaks down completely.

Yeah, I honestly felt bad for Rick in that moment. But I have to say, it was one of my favorites thus far. Overall, this was a great episode, I think.

[mike3764]

Maybe I missed something, but not many people are addressing Tyreese and company's exit from the prison. I am new to the forum, and maybe I missed a post somewhere about how much they were actually going to use Tyreese? It just seems like there was a lot of build up to bring in a character from the comics that a lot of fans liked and now he's gone in two episodes?

Other than that, I thought that Hershel stole the show with his acting tonight.

[mdearth70]

It was a good episode, not the best. I like her but Andrea's speech was too cheesy and I felt Daryl leaving was a little too weird but I can see where the writers are going so its all good in my opinion.

[mdearth70]

Maybe I missed something, but not many people are addressing Tyreese and company's exit from the prison. I am new to the forum, and maybe I missed a post somewhere about how much they were actually going to use Tyreese? It just seems like there was a lot of build up to bring in a character from the comics that a lot of fans liked and now he's gone in two episodes?

Other than that, I thought that Hershel stole the show with his acting tonight.

He'll be back. The actor said he's in 5 episodes the second half. He's still has four more.

[Jenners]

Maybe I missed something, but not many people are addressing Tyreese and company's exit from the prison. I am new to the forum, and maybe I missed a post somewhere about how much they were actually going to use Tyreese? It just seems like there was a lot of build up to bring in a character from the comics that a lot of fans liked and now he's gone in two episodes?

Other than that, I thought that Hershel stole the show with his acting tonight.

First of all, welcome!
And I am sure he will be back. I am quite sure after they left I saw Glenn follow them out.. (could be wrong though!)

[mike3764]

Thanks (missed Glenn following them out)...and thanks for the welcome! I've "lurked" for awhile now. Figured I would start posting because the Tyreese question was burning me up!

[Creeper]

The whole "ghost of (insert char here)" is not working for me AT all. First Shane, then Lori. Seems pretty stupid to me, and makes me hate Rick more and more as a character. Way to go AMC, you managed to turn a great character into a spineless twit.

Hmm..maybe Rick has PTSD? Hallucinations are a symptom of this..are you still going to call him a spineless twit? Everyone wants the show to be realistic, and yet they want Rick to be a real life robot that has no attachments or emotions. This has been A WEEK. And he hasn't really talked to anyone but his wife who he was imagining about it. PTSD is a real thing, and it doesn't mean you are less of a man or some idiotic thing like that. Not cool.

[DeadInDetroit]

Episode was good but not great.

Its so funny seeing ppl complain about Rick losing it.. i mean lets be serious, who wouldnt go a little crazy after all the shit hes been through!? Living in a zombie apocolypse, killing your best friend, pregnant wife dying while giving birth to a kid that may be your dead best friends, your son having to put down his mother, losing Daryl, at war with a heavily armed group that knows where u live.... sheesh thats an insane amount of weight on your head! Him goin a little insane is perfectly understandable!! I didnt like the Lori image he saw but its definitley plausable...

[That Guy]

Hmm..maybe Rick has PTSD? Hallucinations are a symptom of this..are you still going to call him a spineless twit? Everyone wants the show to be realistic, and yet they want Rick to be a real life robot that has no attachments or emotions. This has been A WEEK. And he hasn't really talked to anyone but his wife who he was imagining about it. PTSD is a real thing, and it doesn't mean you are less of a man or some idiotic thing like that. Not cool.

It's a fictional show, man. No one is attacking PTSD. We're looking at this from a story standpoint. In my opinion, these hallucinations do not make me like or feel for Rick at all. It makes him look like a crazy person. Like I said before, they're going way overboard with how Rick deals with the loss of Lori. The comics managed to make him a tragic character while all the show does is make him look insane.

Who knows, maybe they can turn it around and make it work. But right now, I am not feeling it. I would not want someone like Rick (unstable, hallucinating) be the leader of my zombie survival group. That's for sure.

[simplysarah]

The good - Glenn really showed another side of him. Loved it. Enjoyed the escape from the death ring. Tyrese, his character is coming more to life. Hershel (Scott Wilson) did a great job this episode.

The bad - Andrea still trying to be the Gov's girl. Ugh. I also expected more of a walker takeover in town. I did NOT like Daryl leaving, although I know it's not for good it still pissed me off.

The ugly- RICK.

[Creeper]

Of course it is a fictional show, but they are obviously portraying Rick as having obvious symptoms of PTSD. People are calling him a "spineless twit" and "crazy", "insane". That seems like a totally unfair analysis. If you wouldn't say the same thing about some veteran that has been through hell and is falling apart, I don't know why you would say it about Rick.

I'm not taking this personally, I don't know anyone with PTSD or anything...I simply find it aggravating how often people expect well-written characters to act like no on in real life would!

Everyone here knows this is fiction, but we're here because we like it enough to discuss it, so I don't see what is wrong with disputing unjust or harsh judgements.

The point that no one would want a guy who is losing it in charge is key here. That is the way we - and most likely the whole gang - is SUPPOSED to feel. All I'm defending is that what is happening is understandable and realistic..not that I think he is still fit to lead. (I don't)

[Not_Undead]

He'll be back. The actor said he's in 5 episodes the second half. He's still has four more.

Actors should not be giving away spoilers like this.

[Not_Undead]

I did NOT like Daryl leaving, although I know it's not for good it still pissed me off.

HOW do you know it is not for good?

[CrackFox]

Ok, time for a longer review. It's hard to think straight watching it on live stream at 3am (Damn you guys have soo many adverts)
Anyways, I can say that I really enjoyed it despite not being crazy about most of the goings on. I think I just enjoyed it so much because we hadn't seen it for a while.

Good points:

Hershal is really becoming the backbone of the group. I didn't like him much in S2 but in S3 he's really grown on me. I also loved him telling Glenn that he thinks of him as a son, very sweet.

Carol had some good dialogue in this episode. I thought her reaction to Daryl leaving was very well played, devastated but understanding his decision. It would have been awful if she'd have sulked. She's a great actress and this episode proved that.

Tyrese and Co. Although i'm not that interested in them just yet, I already like Tyrese quite a bit. I expect to see a lot from him and Sasha, the other two are walker bait.

Rick's tight clothes.

Bad points:

Daryl leaving with Merle without hesitation. I would have hoped Daryl would have shown more loyalty to Rick and that it would have been emotionally difficult to leave the group behind, it didn't seem like he cared enough.

Rick treating Michonne like crap.

Andrea not showing any signs of resentment toward Philip even though she's seen what she's seen. Very frustrating.

Rick and Co's lack of reaction to the news that Andrea is still alive and well.

The 'Lil Ass Kicker' thing is really cheesy. I hope they drop it.

Rick being all emotional breakdown again and the quite forced Lori hallucination. The Ricktatorship didn't last long, I love him but he's not exactly badass right now, he's just a crazy mess that always carries the same dazed facial expression. Get over it Rick, you have a war to fight!

[TheTalkingZombie]

Everyone wants the show to be realistic, and yet they want Rick to be a real life robot that has no attachments or emotions. This has been A WEEK. And he hasn't really talked to anyone but his wife who he was imagining about it. PTSD is a real thing, and it doesn't mean you are less of a man or some idiotic thing like that. Not cool.

Episode was good but not great.

Its so funny seeing ppl complain about Rick losing it.. i mean lets be serious, who wouldnt go a little crazy after all the shit hes been through!? Living in a zombie apocolypse, killing your best friend, pregnant wife dying while giving birth to a kid that may be your dead best friends, your son having to put down his mother, losing Daryl, at war with a heavily armed group that knows where u live.... sheesh thats an insane amount of weight on your head! Him goin a little insane is perfectly understandable!! I didnt like the Lori image he saw but its definitley plausable...

Let's see all the stuff Rick went through before this hallucination and why it makes sense. First off, Lori dies in a way that he probably still blames himself for it (since he didn't make sure Andrew died), then he proceeds to hallucinate phone calls which probably last for quite a while and he clearly doesn't get sleep a few nights during that.
Just when the phonecalls end and he gets some sort of stability, Michonne shows up and not only does he let a stranger into the group (which clearly he doesn't trust) but he learns Glenn and Maggie were kidnapped. He heads out on a rescue mission, and while heading to Woodbury he ends up having to sacrifice the hermit for the survival of the group. Then the attack on Woodbury happens, which is a lot of stress by itself, but the pressure of barely rescuing Glenn and Maggie, seeing Oscar get killed by ANOTHER hallucination and then Daryl being caught and barely rescued doesn't help. Then comes all the issue with Merle and then Daryl leaves him. And right after that, another very close friend of his, Glenn, blows up on him and that causes yet another rift.
He returns to the prison, tells Carol about Daryl, knows the guvna is about to attack the prison at any time and he has to decide if he accepts the group or not. And to him, that feels like damned if you do damned if you don't. If they turn out to be bad people and kill someone, the blame's on him, he feels. If they turn out to be good people, he feels he'll cause their deaths somehow, which once more, he'd blame himself for. And when he comes close to accepting them, there's the reminder of what happened to Lori and finally he breaks down completely.

Yeah, I honestly felt bad for Rick in that moment. But I have to say, it was one of my favorites thus far. Overall, this was a great episode, I think.

Completly agree with the points being said in Rick's defense. If the writers want to explore, in detail, Rick's state of mind, I am all for it. This show is not some kind of procedural where events of previous episodes are never spoken of again. Actions and events lead to consequences. We are now seeing those consequences for Rick.

Also about the episode - I thought all the conflicts in the episode were very good. The whole Merle drama, vengeful Glenn and untrusting Rick were very well written. It all fel organic and not contrived at all.

[Deadpelican]

On the farm it's said seventeen, so with the months that have passed between then and now statistically she's most likely eighteen.

Seventeen is legal in most states.

[Zprime]

A key thing in Ricks defense. Hes been on edge since b4 the za started. Hes been under stress for years. Trying to save his marriage, gets shot, everything since. I can understand him going nuts. No matter what he does hes wrong. He tries to deal with it but another thing hits and he cant find any ground. I think their doing it well. Also I think everything hit him when he was holding the baby and it began to cry. Knowing nothing about pstd but does crying bring on some issues? If thats what hes got it sure seemed like it. I could be way off thou.

[Tay]

Is he Sasha's boyfriend? I didn't get that vibe, I just thought he was Alan's son. Besides something tells me Alan and Ben will die soon.

Well from the comics he is, but who knows they may have changed that.

[socitycourty]

I thought it was good, but didn't think it lived up to the hype.....

Bummed about Darryl leaving, that made me sad!

Feeling bad for Rick, annoyed with Andrea.

[saltydog75]

I loved David Morrisey in this episode. This version of the Governor is so much more interesting than the one in the comics. He's like a big baby - when he doesn't get what he wants, he takes his toys and goes somewhere else to play.

I liked Andrea taking charge in Woodbury. Some people have said the speech was hackneyed - I'll have to go back and re-watch to check on that - but in general, I really liked her stepping up when there was confusion and the Governor was being a big baby and not dealing with that confusion. She's been a follower thus far in the season but this takes her in the direction of becoming a leader. And it sort of sets up a collision path between her and the Governor. The people of Woodbury may start to trust her more than him.

I loved the moment when Rick saw Lori. I thought it was absolutely cinematic.

Loved Daryl's decision to go off with Merle. To me, it spoke to how Daryl feels like despite all of this time together, they still don't get him - but then again, he can be hard to get. I can't wait to see how they fare out on their own (at least for a few episodes).

Overall, I thought this was a very strong episode in terms of setting the table for the second half of the season.

[Judari]

I enjoyed the episode, though I agree it wasn't the best. My favourite bit is when Rick knocks out Merle with one shot! Lori's ghost creeped the shit out of me too, she reminded me of an elegant Samara from the Ring. Overall I think the episode was a little overhyped from the trailers, and all of the possible points of action were neutralised without chance to escalate. Good ep though.

I didn't make the connection to Samara until I read this. Wow. That scene officially just got 50x more times creepy.

Excellent replies as always TS. My thoughts exactly. I don't care if in reality the actress is 84, she looks barely 16 on the show and is supposed to be playing an underage girl. Everyone really needs needs to calm down and ice their pants if necessary. Even if she was 18 now all available guy characters are way too old for her, and now they want hot lesbian action? Really? Honestly and truly? Seriously guys this isn't HBO, keep Beth out of your strange and slightly pedobear fantasies.

It's a fictional show, man. No one is attacking PTSD. We're looking at this from a story standpoint. In my opinion, these hallucinations do not make me like or feel for Rick at all. It makes him look like a crazy person. Like I said before, they're going way overboard with how Rick deals with the loss of Lori. The comics managed to make him a tragic character while all the show does is make him look insane.

Who knows, maybe they can turn it around and make it work. But right now, I am not feeling it. I would not want someone like Rick (unstable, hallucinating) be the leader of my zombie survival group. That's for sure.

That's the point though, Rick is supposed to look like a crazy person. I agree execution hasn't been that great with it but then again most things this season haven't been fleshed out very well at all. I don't think its just about him dealing with Lori's death, I think Lori's death was just the breaking point. Everyone else has had their mini breakdowns or freakouts in S1/S2 about ZA except for Rick (wouldn't call his Rickatorship speech a breakdown, I mean more emotionally), now its his turn. It wouldn't be realistic if he was the only one who didn't, especially when he takes on everyone's problems as his own, had to kill his best friend, is left with a new baby and now Woodbury. The timing of it is good because as I mentioned before in this thread it parallels with the Gov loosing his shit too. I wouldn't want a crazy person leading my group either but I think its supposed to be part of the plot of "How Rick is going to get his shit together in time." Again, I think this would have been developed a lot better if this season wasn't on speed trying to fit enough story and character development for 2 seasons into one.

[Sweetsister]

Ricks halucination probably has to do with a few things PTS, lack of sleep, stress cause EVERYONE counts on him, maybe even poor diet. When Lori was alive he was sharing his meagre portion of food with her. Depression, stress all those things can make a person loose appitite. People have breakdowns now I cant immagine the number having breakdowns in the ZA world.

I used to be one of those people who thought people should get their shit together and pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get things done.
That was until someone very,very,very close to me was murdered and I lost it, pain , guilt whether warented or not, wanting to join them. For me personally if it wasnt for my meds and medical help Id either be in an asylum or not here.

[saltydog75]

A key thing in Ricks defense. Hes been on edge since b4 the za started. Hes been under stress for years. Trying to save his marriage, gets shot, everything since. I can understand him going nuts. No matter what he does hes wrong. He tries to deal with it but another thing hits and he cant find any ground. I think their doing it well. Also I think everything hit him when he was holding the baby and it began to cry. Knowing nothing about pstd but does crying bring on some issues? If thats what hes got it sure seemed like it. I could be way off thou.

I think the key that people are missing is the scene with Rick holding the baby, that you mentioned. The writers could have taken that in a completely different direction - Rick could have been healed by seeing his baby girl and realized everything was going to be OK - that he needs to be strong so he can take care of her.

But keep in mind - she's most likely NOT his daughter. She's Shane and Lori's daughter. Holding her doesn't make him feel good. It brings up everything he's tried to bury in his mind - betrayal by his best friend and his wife, killing his best friend, having his son shoot his best friend when he turned, having his wife die before he got a chance to tell her he loved her, etc. That's in addition to all of the other death and violence taking place around him, and by him. This was mentioned in "Talking Dead" by Kevin Smith - there was a line about her having Lori's eyes and how Rick might be looking at her and thinking "she has Shane's nose". Is it ridiculous to think that holding Judy, seeing some aspect of her that looked like Shane, and having all of that flood back, would drive a man insane? I think not.

I bought it completely. It doesn't seem melodramatic to me at all. I found it to be an organic result of all of the pressure that's been squarely on Rick since the beginning of the show - and as the previous poster pointed out, even before then.

[Chinghis]

Why is point 2 something to wonder about or cringe over? We know they are routine and not worth much worry for Maggie/Rick or Glenn now days.{snip}

I liked it, but it's something we haven't seen a lot of, that's all.

Edit: Actually, have we confirmed in the series that Andrea was an attorney? I thought that was still just technically graphic novel canon. Wikia says so, I just don't remember hearing it. But, yeah, I'm OK with her speech. Someone's gotta do it.

Oh, and, yeah, I liked the Governor a lot more ... The non-chalance with which he killed the walker who came up on him, and then the guy who got bit. He certainly isn't an incapable character.

[Shane is the Man]

The show did not live up to expectations that is for sure. As long as the show continues with this split personality between Woodbury and the Prison the storylines are not being fleshed out, which leads to them seeming contrived, boring, and unbelievable. I do NOT know why we are still wasting time on Andrea, terrible scenes, more wasted time, bad acting...the zombies in Woodbury come across with more life.

Now we are going to do a three way split now the Daryl and Merle are on their own???

HOW IN THE FUCK IS THAT GOING TO FIT INTO A 42 MIN SHOW???

This is just another example of why shit canning Mazzara might be a good thing, this cracked out 5 min episode bleeps we are getting may work for red-bulled fueled mental amebas but its not satisfying to anyone looking for an actual story to be told.

Nothing really made any sense this episode, most characters have been spun so far out of the range of understanding I am mystified! The Gov is depressed, Rick is hallucinating, Glenn has more post almost rape trauma then Maggie, Maggie is pouty over who the fuck knows, Beth wants to have a baby in the Zombie FUCKING Apocalypse, Daryl takes a mental and emotional dump on himself for Merle completely ignoring more then a year spent with folks who have been his family, Merle can't STFU for 5 mins so he can get somewhere safe when he has no weapons, the dumbasses in Woodbury try driving into a sea of walkers, the people at Woodbury take a complete stranger (Andrea LOL..ROFLMAO) to their hearts as a new messiah....seriously who wrote this episode??? Did they even watch any of the previous episodes from season 1, 2, or 3???

It was a fair episode, but other then jonesing for some zombie action, this episode felt like it pretty much insulted our intelligence.

I agree about the characterization of Merle in this episode. From his interactions with the governor, you got the sense that he knew when to tone down his racist dumbass redneckery. He was a bit more well rounded than the hick idiot he was in season one. And all of a sudden when he knowsmhe's in an incredibly rough spot, he can't keep his mouth shut. Seemed very forced and I preferred the more realistic portrayal of Merle in Woodbury.