[Allen Walker]

After Merle leaves Wodbury and encounters michone, he kills his associate because he wants to go after her. Merle dont like the odds and sucker shoots.WHy does he not go back to Woodbury the way he came from instead of going to the Mini Mall, store, whatever it was.
Basically, he did what his murdered compadre had suggested. He went to the same place Michone went to, though he did not know she was there.

Maybe he got lost or changed his mind. It just seems strange he killed the guy then instead of backtracking he goes into the"red zone" where he seemed afraid to go earlier.

I'm having a huge problem trying to rationalize this ans consider it the biggest plot hole of the episode.

[Jasp]

Are you a vegetarian?

LOL, no, not at all. My reference (in my own mind) in killing an animal for no reason other then for the thrill of the kill (lower on the food chain.) If you could not kill an animal then how could you even think of killing a child.

Oscar finding slippers I think maybe many are overlooking the fact that he has been in prison prior to the ZA. I think he is still dealing with the prison mentality. To have an extra pair of slippers was a luxury in prison. I also don't think he has been given adequate time to digest what has taken place in the outside world. While he and the others were locked up waiting to be saved, they were not to the point of needing to find food and other items. So to me he is like an innocent child that has no concept of the magnitude as to what has transpired in the world while there. He hasn't been beyond the prison walls.

[PurpleUnicorn]

What I was saying that while the Gov is a sociopath and is very twisted, he is still capable of applying logic and is very smart. He's manipulating an entire town for crying out loud! He may be crazy but that doesn't impair his thinking at all. I'd call him more of an evil genius, a Moriarty if you will.
O So I'm saying, yeah, call him crazy cause he is, but don't be so dismissive about it as you would the average crazy person running around with underwear on their heads because obviously he is much more dangerous and his crazy his more subtle to those on the outside.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I find it very annoying when people do that. The reference I made to my neighbor who forgets to wear underwear was that my neighbor is someone with “a few screws loose”. I explicitly stated that is NOT what we’re dealing with when talking about the Governor. I never stated the Governor was not smart. I stated he is crazy. You said, "He may be crazy but that doesn't impair his thinking at all." That doesn't make any sense. Being "crazy" is a mental condition, thinking is controlled by the brain so if a person has a condition that affects their mind, their thinking would by definition be affected. Now I’m thinking the issue here is that you don't understand the definition of crazy, insane, mad, etc. A crazy person would have to have their thinking impacted, whether they wanted to or not. Its a condition that is not voluntary, nor can it be turned on and off. Often times the only way of controlling such a mental condition is through intense therapy and medication, which I doubt the Governor is receiving. Maybe you are not familiar with mental health, as I am, but for you to suggest that someone can be crazy and have it not impair their thinking at all may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

And for the record, I am well aware that someone can be very smart, yet crazy. Throughout history, there are multiple examples of this. ie. Jim Jones, who was intelligent enough to get his entire congregation of a 1000 people to go to Jonestown and commit mass suicide (he also thought he was God), Adolf Hitler, etc.

Rick is loosing his mind a bit too, he's talking to dead people on telephones now. Gov watches heads and keeps his dead daughter. Gov like Moriarty's eccentricities are definitely more twisted and evil compared to Rick's own, but comparable none the less. Despite both men loosing touch on reality to a certain degree, to disregard them like you would a normal crazy person would be underestimating their capabilities

Again, this goes back to your fundamental lack of understanding what being crazy is. Its not having weird little eccentricities, its a lot deeper than that. Rick is not crazy, Rick had a mental breakdown following the death of wife. There is a difference. A completely sane person can have a mental breakdown. Rick is not in the same category as the Governor by any means.

I never said that they always did not plan to kill the military guy they saved. You inferred that they would kill people on the spot in your last post and by using the military example I said that the Gov would rather befriend the person, if possible, for information first before killing them.

Once again, you’ve conveniently missed my point, which was that anyone outside of Woodbury deemed a threat, or who has something the Governor wants, will be killed. It doesn’t matter if it’s on the spot or a couple hours later. You seem to like to take certain aspects of my post and harp on them, while deliberately ignoring others. So this is why I think you seem to be missing to a large extent, what I’m saying.

"Happened upon Woodbury" meaning in the vicinity. I definitely think the Gov keeps a tight watch on the area around Woodbury, we've seen them map out areas as well as keep a special place for trapping walkers, so how else would he have known about the crash? It's not like the helicopter crashed 50 miles away. Unless the Gov saw it and happened to be following it themselves on the road after seeing it in the sky, the crash would have had to happen somewhere close to Woodbury. How else otherwise would they have been able to get there so quickly right when Michonne and Andrea did?

What we do know, and I’m sticking to the facts, is that upon procuring the soldier and Michone and Andrea they had to drive back to Woodbury in their vehicles. So he’s far enough away from Woodbury where he needs to drive. Again, he’s not just staying at Woodbury waiting for people to just wander to Woodbury gates. He’s going away from Woodbury, far enough that he has to drive, looking for people, supplies, etc. So the whole theory of defending Woodbury goes out the window when he’s leaving he’s territory and driving away.

"Just because its the ZA doesn't mean you have to lose your morals as a human being and go around killing other humans" But that issue is exactly what this entire show has been about from S2 up until now, especially with the moral battles of Dale vs. Shane vs. Rick involving Randall. New world vs. Old world is the old ideals vs. the new. It's part of what inspired the Ricktatorship speech and even Lori before she died tells Carl "He's going to beat this world." So there has been acknowledgement by plenty characters that this is a different world they are living in that requires different tactics. However, since it is a new world morals and even what is considered right and wrong might change to fit in the new world and survive. I think people are looking at it through the perspective of living in a non-ZA world, which is one way to approach it but not practical to apply to the characters on the show. Just as I said before the Gov isn't the only ones to use the tactics of encroaching on others, everyone so far on the show has done it. Hello? Rick and Co, pushing in on Hershel's farm! Even the Vatos who were ultimately seen as good guys, were about to get in a shoot out over the guns if the old lady hadn't of shown up. Right or wrong, pulling guns out on someone who you don't know, being apprehensive to a new group of people, manipulating, stealing or killing people for supplies isn't uncommon post ZA regardless of how immoral it is. Gov is definitely the most extreme and ruthless that we have seen so far but it is a theme that we have seen in the show even before him so I don't know why everyone treating it as its something new.

This is by far your most valid point. It is a different world. And there have been debates about killing others for survival. However, the situation with Randal was that he shot at the group first, directly threatened their lives and their survival. You mentioned Shane. Shane is actually a prime example of how someone can lose it post apocalypse and become unfit to be among human beings. His best friend had something he wanted, so why not just kill him right? It’s a different world now after all. Rick was aggressive in his desire to stay at the farm but he never, ever threatened Hershel’s life or indicated that he would be willing to kill Hershel for his farm. The Governor’s situation is simply not the same. He is leaving his territory, which is Woodbury, and going out and killing people for their supplies- the military guys, the Vatos. Again, he has become a serial killer. The definition of crazy is someone who has become a danger to themselves and/or others. The Governor certainly qualifies. He is not doing it for survival, as we can already see Woodbury is thriving… He is not killing in self defense, he is just killing. He’s clearly a highly intelligent, mad man.

[Judari]

Judari, I love the comparison to Holmes and Moriarty. Who would be Watson? Hershel is a doctor (vet) and he certainly has a bad leg. I've been a Holmes fan all my life.

You make a very good point about the Gov possibly being a sociopath. Most folks think of a sociopath as a crazed individual running about with an ax. High functioning individuals are usually extremely intelligent, very good at being a chameleon to fit in, appear very social and charming, are manipulative, and are quite able to plan and execute complex operations. Unfortunately they have absolutely no sense of responsibility, morality, or guilt.

Here's a link if anyone is interested. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I was diagnosed with Schizoid Personality disorder many years ago. I got interested in sociopaths because they share many of the character traits of SPDs. Both are hard to diagnose and are extremely hard to treat. The are both very rare fortunately. I have only met one other SPD in my life. Then again it's not something you make small talk about while mingling at a party.

Here's a link to that too. I'm what's known as a Secret Schizoid http://en.wikipedia....nality_disorder

This is the point I've been trying to make, with my posts concerning the Gov so I'm feeling a lot more validated since you get where I am coming from. For a while there I was feeling as I was the only one who saw the Gov in this light as I think most people think he is one episode away from chasing people with an ax as you mentioned.

Hershel would make an EXCELLENT Watson. Especially if you consider the last scene where Rick confides in Hershel about the telephone calls. Looking back on it, I get so many Sherlock/Watson dynamic feels in that exchange. Not like it isn't an uncommon trope relationship, but it does make me wonder if the writers or creator are Sherlock fans themselves since we have a Sherlock/Hershel and a Sherlock/Moriarty? Oh! Oh! Just realized, is it possible Shane be Lestrade? Shane was a deputy and it would fit in with the dynamic of Lestrade constantly falling short of and relying on Sherlock to lead and solve cases. Of course Rick and Shane's relationship took a volatile course from their original friendship. However, Sherlock and Lestrade, while Lestrade had respect for Sherlock he did get frustrated with him and his methods at times. I think I love TWD a million times more now with all these Sherlock connections.

Those are very interesting links you posted. The SPD one hit close to home for me a little, while I don't think I fit all the criteria, I can relate to as I am the type of person who doesn't like a lot of self-disclosure in my relationships and l would rather be alone if a relationship didn't fit my criteria. The line about "When personal space is violated, they feel suffocated and feel the need to free themselves and be independent", I could have written that myself cause its a really slow, slow, snail like progress for me to feel a personal connection with someone enough to want to open up and I'd rather just run away since I feel cornered.

Unfortunately no ZA is needed for humanity to act in such a fashion. I've seen all this and much more happen in third world countries when they hit the skids. Humanity and human life become something of little value under such circumstances.

Ah, so true. It is very easy, more than people would think, for the world to fall into such ways, especially like you mentioned in third world countries. But then it makes it all the more relevant in ZA, I think people on these boards have too much faith in how humanity would handle themselves during crisis or even times of excitement. Hell, the reports of a person getting stampeded on and killed a few years back during a Wal-Mart Black Friday sale should indicate the level of concern people have for others during chaos.

[Judari]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I find it very annoying when people do that. The reference I made to my neighbor who forgets to wear underwear was that my neighbor is someone with “a few screws loose”. I explicitly stated that is NOT what we’re dealing with when talking about the Governor. I never stated the Governor was not smart. I stated he is crazy. You said, "He may be crazy but that doesn't impair his thinking at all." That doesn't make any sense. Being "crazy" is a mental condition, thinking is controlled by the brain so if a person has a condition that affects their mind, their thinking would by definition be affected. Now I’m thinking the issue here is that you don't understand the definition of crazy, insane, mad, etc. A crazy person would have to have their thinking impacted, whether they wanted to or not. Its a condition that is not voluntary, nor can it be turned on and off. Often times the only way of controlling such a mental condition is through intense therapy and medication, which I doubt the Governor is receiving. Maybe you are not familiar with mental health, as I am, but for you to suggest that someone can be crazy and have it not impair their thinking at all may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say his craziness didn't influence or control his thinking, I said it didn't impair it. Impair means to hinder or indicates a mental handicap of some sort. It's semantics here, you just didn't apply the correct meaning of the word I used to this context. The Gov is as smart and dynamic as they come, his logic skills are not at all impaired. How his craziness influences his thinking is he lacks a sense of morality, guilt and genuine feeling. I would check out the link Backwoodsroamer posted on sociopaths if you still can't grasp this concept cause it could better explain it for you further and in more depth. But you should already know this about sociopaths if you have as much familiarity with mental health as you claim.

And for the record, I am well aware that someone can be very smart, yet crazy. Throughout history, there are multiple examples of this. ie. Jim Jones, who was intelligent enough to get his entire congregation of a 1000 people to go to Jonestown and commit mass suicide (he also thought he was God), Adolf Hitler, etc.

Then I'm not sure what the issue was? I think its just a misunderstanding of the point I was making.

Again, this goes back to your fundamental lack of understanding what being crazy is. Its not having weird little eccentricities, its a lot deeper than that. Rick is not crazy, Rick had a mental breakdown following the death of wife. There is a difference. A completely sane person can have a mental breakdown. Rick is not in the same category as the Governor by any means.

Of course, there is a difference between Rick and the Gov's illness but they are, both at this point, mentally ill. Yes, a completely sane person can have a mental breakdown but that doesn't mean that person will recover from it. The main difference between them is that Rick's does not make him dangerous or a threat to others but the Gov's does. So while I wouldn't put them in the same category of danger, they are both in the same category of both of them are suffering from a mental illness. You seem to be assuming the Gov's illness wasn't brought on by a breakdown. How do you know if he was always this way? That he used to be a normal guy pre-ZA but the trauma of loosing his wife and child didn't cause him to react in such away? If anything the Shane situation should show you how someone could go from completely sane to completely unhinged. Again I will say, that Rick is not dangerous but that doesn't make him any more mentally stable than the Gov as their thinking has not been impaired (notice I said impaired, not controlled or influenced).

Once again, you’ve conveniently missed my point, which was that anyone outside of Woodbury deemed a threat, or who has something the Governor wants, will be killed. It doesn’t matter if it’s on the spot or a couple hours later. You seem to like to take certain aspects of my post and harp on them, while deliberately ignoring others. So this is why I think you seem to be missing to a large extent, what I’m saying.

See now you are changing your story. I originally said while the Gov would want to take advantage of anyone he could, he wouldn't put himself at risk by actively searching these people out without some lead or clue of what he was getting himself into and what he had to gain from it. You countered me and said it didn't matter who it was that outside Woodbury walls the Gov would actively go out and seek people to kill, because he is a serial killer and only wants people to exist in Woodbury. (Serial killer being your words not mine). The only issue I ever had with you point is you made it seem like the Gov would put himself at a disadvantage by not knowing what he was dealing with when stealing from other groups. Since we know he doesn't, because he is smart, this means all the people he has ever killed, since establishing and securing Woodbury, has been near Woodbury or by information he has gotten from others who have been near Woodbury.

What we do know, and I’m sticking to the facts, is that upon procuring the soldier and Michone and Andrea they had to drive back to Woodbury in their vehicles. So he’s far enough away from Woodbury where he needs to drive. Again, he’s not just staying at Woodbury waiting for people to just wander to Woodbury gates. He’s going away from Woodbury, far enough that he has to drive, looking for people, supplies, etc. So the whole theory of defending Woodbury goes out the window when he’s leaving he’s territory and driving away.

Did I ever say people coming up to the gates? I already told you my definition of happening upon Woodbury includes the territory surrounding it as well. Also driving does not indicate that a place is far away. Driving in ZA is a safety precaution. Michonne walked in what it appeared to be a very short time (no one was concerned about where Glenn and Maggie were yet) to the prison from the town that Maggie and Glenn drove to.

Of course the Gov would drive to the site of the crash. What if he needed a fast get away from walkers attracted by the noise? What if there could be survivors to be "rescued"? What if other people who turned out to be hostile were also attracted to the site? There are so many factors of why using cars are necessary in ZA it is illogical to just think distance would be the only factor.

This is by far your most valid point. It is a different world. And there have been debates about killing others for survival. However, the situation with Randal was that he shot at the group first, directly threatened their lives and their survival. You mentioned Shane. Shane is actually a prime example of how someone can lose it post apocalypse and become unfit to be among human beings. His best friend had something he wanted, so why not just kill him right? It’s a different world now after all. Rick was aggressive in his desire to stay at the farm but he never, ever threatened Hershel’s life or indicated that he would be willing to kill Hershel for his farm. The Governor’s situation is simply not the same. He is leaving his territory, which is Woodbury, and going out and killing people for their supplies- the military guys, the Vatos. Again, he has become a serial killer. The definition of crazy is someone who has become a danger to themselves and/or others. The Governor certainly qualifies. He is not doing it for survival, as we can already see Woodbury is thriving… He is not killing in self defense, he is just killing. He’s clearly a highly intelligent, mad man.

Again Rick forcing himself on Hershel is not the same danger wise but wrong is wrong, not on the same level but that still doesn't make it okay. Also who is to say its not a gateway into something more drastic? Excusing wrong at any level just makes a person more comfortable with it and makes it easier to take it gradually to the next level. Who knows what would have happened if Hershel would have considered killing Rick to get him off his own property? Would Rick have then killed Hershel in order to stay? I'm not justifying the Gov's actions like I'm not justifying Rick's. However, like I said it is a different world now and maybe what is wrong for us, isn't (or wont be as people adjust) wrong for them.

[meesha1971]

See now you are changing your story. I originally said while the Gov would want to take advantage of anyone he could, he wouldn't put himself at risk by actively searching these people out without some lead or clue of what he was getting himself into and what he had to gain from it. You countered me and said it didn't matter who it was that outside Woodbury walls the Gov would actively go out and seek people to kill, because he is a serial killer and only wants people to exist in Woodbury. (Serial killer being your words not mine). The only issue I ever had with you point is you made it seem like the Gov would put himself at a disadvantage by not knowing what he was dealing with when stealing from other groups. Since we know he doesn't, because he is smart, this means all the people he has ever killed, since establishing and securing Woodbury, has been near Woodbury or by information he has gotten from others who have been near Woodbury.

I agree with a lot of the points you've made, but I do think the governor puts himself and Woodbury at risk - whether he realizes that or not. The helicopter did not crash anywhere near Woodbury from what we're shown - it was well after dark by the time they drove back to Woodbury with Michonne and Andrea after all. From what we've seen since, the governor does send groups out at times - some are looking for walkers for Milton's experiments or the fights, but it appears others are on the lookout for other groups and/or locations to get supplies. It does not seem like they do this everyday, but it seems to be something done regularly. The governor goes with them when they're looking for other groups and supplies. The group that arrived at the crash site got there much too quickly to have come from Woodbury - based on how long it took them to drive back to Woodbury later. It's more likely they were already out patrolling for other survivors, groups, etc...

That goes for forcing Michonne and Andrea to go to Woodbury against their will as well. The pilot was a necessity - at least as far as the governor was concerned - because he needed medical treatment before he could give them any information about whether or not he was part of a larger group and where they were if he was. Michonne could have been interrogated at the crash site without putting Woodbury at risk. I think Merle knowing that Andrea was part of the group that left him behind is certainly part of it, but what we see from the bits of conversation that Andrea overheard when she regained consciousness on the way back to Woodbury is that the governor forced them to go there because of Michonne - specifically, her walker pets. He was intrigued by her having two walkers and seemingly controlling them. The governor underestimated Michonne - she didn't buy into his act and she wasn't interested in being part of his "research" team. That's why he quickly turned his focus to Andrea - she is more gullible and more easily manipulated. Andrea is the weak link and he figured he could use her to get to Michonne. That didn't work because, again, he underestimated Michonne. He decided to kill Michonne, but was smart enough to set things up so it would appear that Michonne was killed by someone else or walkers after leaving Woodbury. He's completely focused on manipulating Andrea now and wants Michonne out of the picture. He - as well as Merle - are still underestimating Michonne so the attempt to kill her failed.

Spoiler

From the spoilers I've seen, it seems the governor has decided Andrea might know something about Michonne's pet walkers and now has her working with Milton in his experiments.

With the way that Michonne and Andrea were captured - as well as Glenn and Maggie - I don't think the governor is really thinking about the safety of Woodbury. He thinks that he can prevent anyone who comes in from leaving - or easily kill them if they do. He is arrogant and overconfident - and his people are not as skilled as he wants to believe - so capturing people and forcing them to go to Woodbury is a huge risk that will eventually result in Woodbury being attacked. There's no logic to his actions in that regard.

Again Rick forcing himself on Hershel is not the same danger wise but wrong is wrong, not on the same level but that still doesn't make it okay. Also who is to say its not a gateway into something more drastic? Excusing wrong at any level just makes a person more comfortable with it and makes it easier to take it gradually to the next level. Who knows what would have happened if Hershel would have considered killing Rick to get him off his own property? Would Rick have then killed Hershel in order to stay? I'm not justifying the Gov's actions like I'm not justifying Rick's. However, like I said it is a different world now and maybe what is wrong for us, isn't (or wont be as people adjust) wrong for them.

I have to disagree with you on that simply because Rick never forced himself - or the group - on Hershel. Initially, Hershel offered to let them stay because of Carl needing surgery - since Otis shot Carl accidentally, Hershel felt an obligation to help. He also agreed to let them use the farm as a base in the search for Sophia and provided a map to help them, but initially stipulated that they would have to leave once Carl had recovered.

Once Carl started to recover, Rick begged Hershel to let them stay - and he was very determined in his begging - but he always made that Hershel's decision. He always stipulated that they would follow Hershel's rules and respect that the farm was his. He made sure everyone kept the guns put away at their camp and they only got them out for target practice and while they were searching the woods - with Hershel's permission. He pointed out how much help his group could be in taking care of the farm. Begging is not using force. Rick wouldn't have put a gun to Hershel's head. Shane would have - and he even told Andrea he wanted to get rid of Rick and Hershel - but Rick wouldn't have gone to that extreme. Rick was trying to be diplomatic and convince Hershel to let them stay by negotiating with him. He did take advantage of circumstances to buy as much time as possible to continue begging Hershel to let them stay, but he never used force. Nor do I think Hershel would have ever actually forced them to leave - especially after Maggie called him out on it and reminded him of how he had lectured her about compassion for others when her mother died.

I don't think there's really any comparison between Rick and the governor. Rick has become wary of other survivors - and that's a good thing - but he's not going to kill people just to get whatever supplies they have like the governor does. And I can't see Rick sending people out to look for other survivors and force them to come to the prison like the governor does either. He's cautious, but he will wait until he's sure that someone is a threat before he goes to the extreme of killing them.

[PurpleUnicorn]

I didn't say his craziness didn't influence or control his thinking, I said it didn't impair it. Impair means to hinder or indicates a mental handicap of some sort. It's semantics here, you just didn't apply the correct meaning of the word I used to this context. The Gov is as smart and dynamic as they come, his logic skills are not at all impaired. How his craziness influences his thinking is he lacks a sense of morality, guilt and genuine feeling.

The more you post, the sillier you sound. Ok, so now, according to you, being crazy is not a mental handicap. What is it, an asset? Lol…So if the Governor being crazy doesn't "impair" his thinking then the only other two affects would be that 1) it has no affect on his thinking or 2) it helps his thinking. So which is it… does the Governor’s craziness have no affect on his thinking or does it help his thinking? You should definitely write a book, because your theories on how being crazy will not “impair” someone’s thinking are really quite contrary to what medical professionals have established through many years of research. Its widely accepted that being crazy is an impairment, but since you know so much I’d love to be the first in line to purchase your book debunking years and years of psychological research.

“How his craziness influences his thinking is he lacks a sense of morality, guilt and genuine feeling.” Uh huh, wouldn’t that in and of itself be an impairment? As human beings we are meant to have feelings and a moral compass, this is needed to also be a good and effective leader. Can you imagine having a sociopath as a president? Let’s see, that would be someone who lacks empathy, has an incapacity to love, manipulative, pathological liar, and often engages in criminal behavior… But those are not impairments. The ability to empathize with others, have morals and feelings is crucial to the functioning of any healthy human being. So your theory that this doesn’t impact his logic is extremely bogus and a very immature way of viewing human beings.

Of course, there is a difference between Rick and the Gov's illness but they are, both at this point, mentally ill. Yes, a completely sane person can have a mental breakdown but that doesn't mean that person will recover from it. The main difference between them is that Rick's does not make him dangerous or a threat to others but the Gov's does. So while I wouldn't put them in the same category of danger, they are both in the same category of both of them are suffering from a mental illness. You seem to be assuming the Gov's illness wasn't brought on by a breakdown. How do you know if he was always this way? That he used to be a normal guy pre-ZA but the trauma of losing his wife and child didn't cause him to react in such away? If anything the Shane situation should show you how someone could go from completely sane to completely unhinged. Again I will say, that Rick is not dangerous but that doesn't make him any more mentally stable than the Gov as their thinking has not been impaired (notice I said impaired, not controlled or influenced).

You answered your own question. Rick is not a danger to himself and others, therefore he is not crazy. He had a mental breakdown due to the loss of his wife, but all indications are that he has recovered, since at the end of the last episode he rejoined the group. The Governor is certainly a danger to others, and according to you is a sociopath. Regardless of what initially prompted the Governor to become crazy (could very well have been his daughter’s death and the ZA, however based upon what I know about sociopaths his problems probably began way before the ZA) he is now completely crazy and we’ve gotten no indication that he’ll be returning to sanity.

See now you are changing your story. I originally said while the Gov would want to take advantage of anyone he could, he wouldn't put himself at risk by actively searching these people out without some lead or clue of what he was getting himself into and what he had to gain from it. You countered me and said it didn't matter who it was that outside Woodbury walls the Gov would actively go out and seek people to kill, because he is a serial killer and only wants people to exist in Woodbury. (Serial killer being your words not mine). The only issue I ever had with you point is you made it seem like the Gov would put himself at a disadvantage by not knowing what he was dealing with when stealing from other groups. Since we know he doesn't, because he is smart, this means all the people he has ever killed, since establishing and securing Woodbury, has been near Woodbury or by information he has gotten from others who have been near Woodbury.

I’m certainly not changing my story; you’re just not paying attention, which is sad. Again, you have missed it. I said that the Governor views every group outside of Woodbury as a threat, and would kill them for their supplies if they had anything he and Woodbury could use. My sticking point was never his tactics in going about killing outsiders, it was the fact that he kills outsiders at all. By definition, any group outside of Woodbury is an enemy. People who really are no threat to Woodbury, who we’ve seen are generally several miles at least from Woodbury when he first encounters them. Sure he’s tactical and smart about how he massacres people, so what? Does that make him any less crazy? Of course not. And yes, he most certainly is a serial killer. The way in which he murdered those soldiers and people at the old folk’s home makes him one, absolutely.

The Governor is most certainly sending his men out scouting for supplies to scavenge and bring back to Woodbury. This is dangerous by definition as who knows what they may encounter while out scavenging for supplies. All indications are that they were out scouting when the helicopter crashed. This is surely something him and his men do on a regular basis. They have vehicles, they have men, they have weapons, so your continuing assertion that all they do is sit back and wait until someone “happens upon Woodbury” is nonsense.

Did I ever say people coming up to the gates? I already told you my definition of happening upon Woodbury includes the territory surrounding it as well. Also driving does not indicate that a place is far away. Driving in ZA is a safety precaution. Michonne walked in what it appeared to be a very short time (no one was concerned about where Glenn and Maggie were yet) to the prison from the town that Maggie and Glenn drove to.

Of course the Gov would drive to the site of the crash. What if he needed a fast get away from walkers attracted by the noise? What if there could be survivors to be "rescued"? What if other people who turned out to be hostile were also attracted to the site? There are so many factors of why using cars are necessary in ZA it is illogical to just think distance would be the only factor.

What you said was the Governor waits until people “happen upon Woodbury”, which I’ve already proven to be false. Woodbury and the immediate perimeter is Woodbury territory. If the Governor’s men were standing on top of vehicles, buildings, etc. in Woodbury on the lookout for outsiders that is defending Woodbury. Once they get in their vehicles and drive somewhere else, it’s no longer Woodbury territory. An analogy would be if someone was on top of the guard tower at the prison keeping watch, that’s defending the prison. Once they get into their vehicle and drive away it’s no longer prison territory. It’s not logical to say things beyond sight and several miles away are still considered Woodbury territory. But coming from you, I’m not surprised.

[PurpleUnicorn]

I agree with a lot of the points you've made, but I do think the governor puts himself and Woodbury at risk - whether he realizes that or not. The helicopter did not crash anywhere near Woodbury from what we're shown - it was well after dark by the time they drove back to Woodbury with Michonne and Andrea after all. From what we've seen since, the governor does send groups out at times - some are looking for walkers for Milton's experiments or the fights, but it appears others are on the lookout for other groups and/or locations to get supplies. It does not seem like they do this everyday, but it seems to be something done regularly. The governor goes with them when they're looking for other groups and supplies. The group that arrived at the crash site got there much too quickly to have come from Woodbury - based on how long it took them to drive back to Woodbury later. It's more likely they were already out patrolling for other survivors, groups, etc...

That goes for forcing Michonne and Andrea to go to Woodbury against their will as well. The pilot was a necessity - at least as far as the governor was concerned - because he needed medical treatment before he could give them any information about whether or not he was part of a larger group and where they were if he was. Michonne could have been interrogated at the crash site without putting Woodbury at risk. I think Merle knowing that Andrea was part of the group that left him behind is certainly part of it, but what we see from the bits of conversation that Andrea overheard when she regained consciousness on the way back to Woodbury is that the governor forced them to go there because of Michonne - specifically, her walker pets. He was intrigued by her having two walkers and seemingly controlling them. The governor underestimated Michonne - she didn't buy into his act and she wasn't interested in being part of his "research" team. That's why he quickly turned his focus to Andrea - she is more gullible and more easily manipulated. Andrea is the weak link and he figured he could use her to get to Michonne. That didn't work because, again, he underestimated Michonne. He decided to kill Michonne, but was smart enough to set things up so it would appear that Michonne was killed by someone else or walkers after leaving Woodbury. He's completely focused on manipulating Andrea now and wants Michonne out of the picture. He - as well as Merle - are still underestimating Michonne so the attempt to kill her failed.

Spoiler

From the spoilers I've seen, it seems the governor has decided Andrea might know something about Michonne's pet walkers and now has her working with Milton in his experiments.

With the way that Michonne and Andrea were captured - as well as Glenn and Maggie - I don't think the governor is really thinking about the safety of Woodbury. He thinks that he can prevent anyone who comes in from leaving - or easily kill them if they do. He is arrogant and overconfident - and his people are not as skilled as he wants to believe - so capturing people and forcing them to go to Woodbury is a huge risk that will eventually result in Woodbury being attacked. There's no logic to his actions in that regard.



I have to disagree with you on that simply because Rick never forced himself - or the group - on Hershel. Initially, Hershel offered to let them stay because of Carl needing surgery - since Otis shot Carl accidentally, Hershel felt an obligation to help. He also agreed to let them use the farm as a base in the search for Sophia and provided a map to help them, but initially stipulated that they would have to leave once Carl had recovered.

Once Carl started to recover, Rick begged Hershel to let them stay - and he was very determined in his begging - but he always made that Hershel's decision. He always stipulated that they would follow Hershel's rules and respect that the farm was his. He made sure everyone kept the guns put away at their camp and they only got them out for target practice and while they were searching the woods - with Hershel's permission. He pointed out how much help his group could be in taking care of the farm. Begging is not using force. Rick wouldn't have put a gun to Hershel's head. Shane would have - and he even told Andrea he wanted to get rid of Rick and Hershel - but Rick wouldn't have gone to that extreme. Rick was trying to be diplomatic and convince Hershel to let them stay by negotiating with him. He did take advantage of circumstances to buy as much time as possible to continue begging Hershel to let them stay, but he never used force. Nor do I think Hershel would have ever actually forced them to leave - especially after Maggie called him out on it and reminded him of how he had lectured her about compassion for others when her mother died.

I don't think there's really any comparison between Rick and the governor. Rick has become wary of other survivors - and that's a good thing - but he's not going to kill people just to get whatever supplies they have like the governor does. And I can't see Rick sending people out to look for other survivors and force them to come to the prison like the governor does either. He's cautious, but he will wait until he's sure that someone is a threat before he goes to the extreme of killing them.

This post is so on point and you've actually articulated a lot of what I've been trying to say. A lot of the Governor's actions have been highly questionable and illogical. I did not even pick up on the fact that when Merle pulled the gun on Michonne and Andrea it was daylight, but when we see them driving back to Woodbury its dark. So no way were they close to the Woodbury. Great observation. I absolutely agree that all the evidence points to the Governor and his group regularly going out and scouting for people/ supplies quite a distance from Woodbury.

I also agree that the Governor regularly puts his men at risk due to his arrogance and grandiosity. Its not just him wanting to protect Woodbury, by any means. There was no reason to abduct Michonne and Andrea, no reason to kill the Vatos, all of things he's doing is not being motivated by his desire to protect Woodbury. And yes, in the end, I think his behavior will come back to hurt Woodbury.

Rick and the Governor are totally different. The things Rick has done have been about survival. The Governor, on the other hand, is on a power trip. The things he's doing are not about survival. And like you said, Rick would never abduct people and force them to come back to the prison and be part of his group, or kill them for their supplies, etc.

[backwoodsroamer]

Let's not mention the Thanksgiving Eve Massacre, please.

[Judari]

I don't even think I can dignify a response to PurpleUnicorn at this point, I'll let the negative likes speak for themselves, so I'm just going to walk away. I don't know how this got to be so anger infused but thanks for the graphic anyway backwoodsroamer, haha I feel like you always have one ready for every scenario.

@meesha1971, I do agree that the Gov is putting himself at risk by bringing individuals back to Woodbury because their group could be looking for them like Rick and Co with Maggie and Glenn. However, I don't think the Gov considers it a big threat to Woodbury because he still has the advantage of getting information about the group from the individual he captured (potentially, there could be some fall back on this). I would also even go as far as to say he considers it a tactic to lure a group closer to where he could have the home advantage to strike. It's not 100% risk free but I think he considers the potential reward worth the risk. Even if the group who approached Woodbury was hostile, unless they themselves were super equipped (the Gov now has a tank lol) then they would be easily picked off. Plus at that point the Gov wouldn't even have to hide or justify killing them to the townspeople because they would be attacking Woodbury. But like I said I meant happens upon Woodbury meaning the surrounding area by a few miles. I'm sure they make scouting trips if they need things in particular. I just think the Gov would prefer to keep things close to home as much as possible. Would be a huge risk if they traveled really long distances to just to attack random groups, anything could go wrong. Also I think its safe to say the Gov hasn't exhausted all the resources even close to them. Maggie and Glenn couldn't have been more than 5 miles, 10 max from Woodbury (also I don't think Merle walked all too far either to find them). As scavenger like as the Gov is you would think he wouldn't have left any supplies at all, so there is definite places even near Woodbury he hasn't checked yet. I don't think unless the Gov is looking for something special in particular there is much need for him to travel very far. As far as the Helicopter I personally think it might have flown near Woodbury and they started following it.

Also as far as the Rick, Hershel, farm thing: Comic spoiler:

Spoiler

Hershel forced Rick out of the farm initially by gunpoint. So in the comics it did escalate that far. I just think with everything happening so fast in the TV show, that Hershel never got the chance to force them with the Randall situation and then the hoard. By the time the dust was settled, a bond and dependency had been formed.

[Serenity@sea]

There is definitely a lot of good debate going on here but please, try not to make it personal. If you can't, it may be time to step away from the keyboard.

[Not_Undead]

There is definitely a lot of good debate going on here but please, try not to make it personal. If you can't, it may be time to step away from the keyboard.

Why don't you just delete the thread, again?

[Serenity@sea]

Why don't you just delete the thread, again?

Because it did not get out of hand.

There is no reason to start trouble where there is none.

[Not_Undead]

Because it did not get out of hand.

There is no reason to start trouble where there is none.

The thread in question could have been closed, rather than deleted.

Some of us were making serious points, rather than just insults.

[Serenity@sea]

If you have a problem, feel free to address with Living Dead Grrrl in private.

[meesha1971]

@meesha1971, I do agree that the Gov is putting himself at risk by bringing individuals back to Woodbury because their group could be looking for them like Rick and Co with Maggie and Glenn. However, I don't think the Gov considers it a big threat to Woodbury because he still has the advantage of getting information about the group from the individual he captured (potentially, there could be some fall back on this). I would also even go as far as to say he considers it a tactic to lure a group closer to where he could have the home advantage to strike. It's not 100% risk free but I think he considers the potential reward worth the risk. Even if the group who approached Woodbury was hostile, unless they themselves were super equipped (the Gov now has a tank lol) then they would be easily picked off. Plus at that point the Gov wouldn't even have to hide or justify killing them to the townspeople because they would be attacking Woodbury. But like I said I meant happens upon Woodbury meaning the surrounding area by a few miles. I'm sure they make scouting trips if they need things in particular. I just think the Gov would prefer to keep things close to home as much as possible. Would be a huge risk if they traveled really long distances to just to attack random groups, anything could go wrong. Also I think its safe to say the Gov hasn't exhausted all the resources even close to them. Maggie and Glenn couldn't have been more than 5 miles, 10 max from Woodbury (also I don't think Merle walked all too far either to find them). As scavenger like as the Gov is you would think he wouldn't have left any supplies at all, so there is definite places even near Woodbury he hasn't checked yet. I don't think unless the Gov is looking for something special in particular there is much need for him to travel very far. As far as the Helicopter I personally think it might have flown near Woodbury and they started following it.

I think tonight's episode cleared that up - but for me that only makes his actions more illogical since he's admitting it's a risk, but doing it anyway. Makes no sense.

It is certainly possible that the helicoptor flew over Woodbury - not sure why, but I had the impression is came from the opposite direction though. Regardless, the crash site was a good distance away since it was well after dark by the time they got back.

Maggie and Glenn were closer, but not close enough to be considered a threat - and it was pretty obvious they were just getting supplies from that store and going back to their camp. Merle told the governor that it looked like they were pretty well set up and that's why he captured them. That's all about finding out where their camp is so they can go in and take whatever supplies they have. Honestly, I don't even think Merle is all that serious about finding Daryl - it still seems more like he's using that to try and gain sympathy. Andrea was gullible enough to buy Merle's line hook, line, and sinker. Glenn is smarter and knew better than to risk taking Merle back to the prison or telling him where it was.

I don't think the governor does much scavenging in the stores at this point. He seems to be getting all of the supplies from other groups right now. I get the impression that he feels killing the living to steal their supplies is less risky than potentially fighting walkers to get into stores.

Also as far as the Rick, Hershel, farm thing: Comic spoiler:

Spoiler

Hershel forced Rick out of the farm initially by gunpoint. So in the comics it did escalate that far. I just think with everything happening so fast in the TV show, that Hershel never got the chance to force them with the Randall situation and then the hoard. By the time the dust was settled, a bond and dependency had been formed.

The show has deviated a great deal from the comic so I don't compare them. I stopped reading the comic after I realized how much the show is deviating - I find the show to be much more realistic and I was never a comic fan anyway. In the show, there was no force involved. Rick begged and negotiated. Hershel eventually realized that Rick was right - and I think Maggie lecturing him about showing compassion to others was part of that.

Likewise, the governor's character on the show is much more subdued than his comic counterpart - which was necessary because the comic character is so exaggerated and over the top unrealistic it would never have worked on the show. I don't really see much comparison between the governor and Rick - they contrast each other more.

[Not_Undead]

If you have a problem, feel free to address with Living Dead Grrrl in private.

I understand. No point in doing that.

I just had to make the point.

[Baz]

Good episode. Back on track after last weeks very poor episode. Although some points of criticism.

1) How did Michonne find the prison
2) Why did she stand idle and allow Glenn and Maggie to taken
3) The girl Hayley claiming to be a superb shot with a bow and arrow and then couldn't hit the wide side of a barn with a beachball

Good parts although Andrea bugs me nice pins on her.

And I am glad the phone call stuff is done and dusted. Couldn't be bothered with that on going. And also Carol has been found so that didn't get dragged on and on.

And the mid season has to finish with Merle getting popped in the head. Bad bastard.

[backwoodsroamer]

I understand. No point in doing that.

I just had to make the point.

Really if you think the forum is being handled poorly for the good of all members you should bring this to LDG's attention. I don't think what you've posted here has made any point. At least none that I can see. Since it seems unresolved, I am sure LDG would want to hear from you. She works very hard to make this forum a wonderful experience for us all. I have always found her to be a very competent, caring, kind, and open minded Administrators. Traits that all members here should emulate.

[GirlsDeadMonster]

I really liked it but I wish we could have seen a confrontation, guess have to wait for the next episode. I like how Michonne comes to Rick's group. She obviously needed medical help and she brought the baby formula the group would have needed. And now Rick and co. know about Woodbury but have to save Maggie and Glen. Glen really held his own in the interrogation and I think became more of a leader when he didn't make the decision to tell the Guv about the prison. The Guv showed he is really not a nice guy and hopefully Andrea will find out soon what is really going on.

[OMEN]

Ugh my 13 yr old just read me like three spoilers for the next episode


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Annika]

I haven't read all pages, but I noticed that the Gov seemed to notice Merle's lie about Michonne. If I am remembering correctly, Merle first said she killed the other members of his group, then he said they were carrying her head and sword when biters got them.

[mr teaspoon]

I just want to say that "I'm gonna keep calling you Neil" is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. Such a perfect combination of character call-back and excellent delivery by Michael Rooker, I laugh out loud every time I hear it.