The Walking Dead Season 3 Ep6 - Hounded - Review

the walking dead season 3 rick andrea michonne the governor glenn maggie TWD Hounded Thoughts

The Walking Dead Ep 6 Hounded Review (200 )

What did you think of this week's episode?

  1. Excellent (98 [49.00%] - )

    49.00%

  2. Good - Some Critiques (86 [43.00%] - )

    43.00%

  3. Fair - Not What I Expected (11 [5.50%] - )

    5.50%

  4. Poor (5 [2.50%] - )

    2.50%

#376
Timbersnake

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After Merle leaves Wodbury and encounters michone, he kills his associate because he wants to go after her. Merle dont like the odds and sucker shoots.WHy does he not go back to Woodbury the way he came from instead of going to the Mini Mall, store, whatever it was.
Basically, he did what his murdered compadre had suggested. He went to the same place Michone went to, though he did not know she was there.

Maybe he got lost or changed his mind. It just seems strange he killed the guy then instead of backtracking he goes into the"red zone" where he seemed afraid to go earlier.
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#377
warioloaf

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ANdrea needs to like die. i hate her scenes.... its ruining this show sometimes in my view. good episode tho
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#378
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I'm a bit disappointed in Andrea, but I get that Woodbury is giving her a false sense of security. I just hope she gets a chance to see the Gov's dark side.
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#379
meesha1971

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Damn, Meesha. You are good. You have changed my thinking.

Except for here


I didn't feel he was pulling away from the group until he saw Carol's reaction to the death, just prior to the funeral. He mourned with the others. His behaviour, his demonstration of sympathy were very appropriate. But Carol had shut down and was in shock and I don't think Daryl got that. I think it hurt (scene where he came in with the flower ) when she didn't accept his presence as an occasion to look to him for solace. I felt that was his most vulnerable moment and communicated he felt (correctly or not) rejected.

I've always assumed he took her lack of apparent grief as a little dismissive of his efforts to find Sophia. There was her talk of this not being her little girl; she was already gone, etc. To me it felt like an emotional slap, an unstated but understood, "Why did you bother? You were never in a position to save her."

Explains for me why he shut off emotionally and put distance between himself and , most significantly, Carol. Explains, too, why he tried to return the hurt. It was more than just keeping to himself.

Gee, I just love that man.


I don't know if I would agree that Daryl felt rejected by Carol. I think it's a bit more complex. Daryl held on to the hope that they would find Sophia alive and well right up to that moment she stepped out of the barn as a walker. The longer the search went on, the others gradually gave up hope that they would find her alive. Even Carol told Daryl that he shouldn't risk his life again when Sophia was probably dead - which resulted in him lashing out at her. It seems more that Daryl felt that he had failed. He had opened himself up both in letting the group see how much he cared about finding Sophia and in trying to comfort Carol to give her hope and it was all for nothing.

The timing is a factor as well. It had only been about 10 days since they tried to rescue Merle - and found only his hand on the roof. The attack on the quarry camp occurred that night, Jim got bit, the CDC didn't work out, Jacqui died, the huge herd of walkers on the highway, Carl getting shot, Shane killing Otis - which Daryl told Dale he had already figured out on his own - the walkers in the barn, etc... Plus there is that deleted Vatos scene - which I think applies to all of them losing hope and wanting to stay on the farm. A lot of bad things happening in those 10 days. The hope of finding Sophia was something for Daryl to hold on to - a symbol that things could get better and they could overcome this. Instead it was another failure - and it was a more personal failure for Daryl because he had put so much effort into finding her and nearly died himself in the process. I think he was starting to give up himself - what was the point of trying so hard when they continually failed?

Shutting down and isolating himself emotionally is Daryl's defense mechanism - a way to protect himself from getting hurt. Part of his journey is learning that people can help each other get through the hard times - not just in protecting each other from zombies, but in dealing with the pain and hurt as well. Daryl was the first to point out that the group was broken when Dale was trying to save Randall and I think Dale's death made them realize that they had to pull together. Rick began turning to Daryl as Shane became more and more unstable as well. So I wouldn't say there was any one specific person or event involved because it was such a complex situation. I think the most significant factor for Daryl was realizing that he was needed - not just as "muscle", but that his opinion mattered and that they all needed each other for emotional support.

His reaction to the losses after Andrew let walkers into the prison is a marked change because he isn't pulling back or isolating himself this time. He's stepping up and trying to hold things together for Rick while he grieves over Lori. And he seems to understand that Rick needs to work through that on his own. Getting the baby the formula she needs, telling Beth to be there for Carl, talking to Carl himself, working with others to finish clearing walkers out of their cell block, etc... Daryl would see that as simply doing what needs to be done, but it's still very significant for him to take that on himself. The question is how will being around Merle again effect that? We've learned that Merle was always very controlling and manipulative towards Daryl - and that Daryl realizes that - so it will be interesting to see how he deals with Merle.

I have never read the comic so maybe the answer is there, but why would the Gov want anything the folks at the prison have? Why are they worth bothering with?


Well, just in general terms, a prison would have a lot of things people would need to survive - as Rick pointed out to the group when they found it. Weapons, ammo, food, medicine - a prison would be well stocked with supplies. I think the governor would go after any source of supplies to add to the stockpile at Woodbury. It's not clear yet just how well this particular prison is stocked - I'm still not sure about Rick's line to Glenn about the armory. I thought he said "if the armory has been picked clean" - indicating that they hadn't found it yet, but others thought he said "if the armory hadn't been picked clean" - which would mean they found it and it was empty. Carl said he found the infirmary and cleaned it out - there didn't appear to be much there. However, it's also possible that the prison staff moved things and created a stockpile of weapons and medical supplies when things started to get bad. They may find more as they clear out more of the prison. Hard to say. In general though, the governor would see that as a possibility to add to his own stockpile - not to mention having control of a location with built in security against walkers.

In terms of the group itself, I think that would be more about control - the governor wants to be in charge. Taking in stragglers like Andrea and Michonne wouldn't involve any risk to his leadership. Another group with an established leader is an entirely different matter. I think the governor would always be on the lookout for anyone capable of challenging his authority and/or taking his place.
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#380
Vicki48

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Sorry. Wasn't thinking clearly that late. Would understand why he would want the prison. What I meant to ask is why is he interested in tracking down the group associated with Merle and Andrea? He doesn't yet know where they are, but they seem to be targeted.
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#381
meesha1971

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Sorry. Wasn't thinking clearly that late. Would understand why he would want the prison. What I meant to ask is why is he interested in tracking down the group associated with Merle and Andrea? He doesn't yet know where they are, but they seem to be targeted.


I don't think the governor has targeted them at this point. He hasn't shown any interest in them yet. He hasn't been given a reason to be interested because all he knows at this point is that Andrea used to be part of a group and she got separated from them. She doesn't know where they are now - or even if they survived. Merle expressed interest in finding his brother, but the governor didn't seem to think that was a good use of their resources. Again, they don't know if anyone from that group survived or if they would have anything useful.

I think that will change now that Merle has captured Glenn and Maggie. I don't think either of them would willingly betray the group, but they were captured within walking distance of Woodbury - since Merle and Michonne were on foot. They were both armed and had a vehicle - and they were gathering supplies for the group. Those clues will make the governor more interested I think - where is the rest of the group and what else do they have? Vehicles, fuel, weapons, and ammo would likely be the first items the governor would consider based on the capture alone. I think they will find out that they are staying at the prison somehow and that will add to his interest - and there will probably be a confrontation when Rick and the others find Woodbury.
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#382
Judari

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I don't think the governor has targeted them at this point. He hasn't shown any interest in them yet. He hasn't been given a reason to be interested because all he knows at this point is that Andrea used to be part of a group and she got separated from them. She doesn't know where they are now - or even if they survived. Merle expressed interest in finding his brother, but the governor didn't seem to think that was a good use of their resources. Again, they don't know if anyone from that group survived or if they would have anything useful.

I think that will change now that Merle has captured Glenn and Maggie. I don't think either of them would willingly betray the group, but they were captured within walking distance of Woodbury - since Merle and Michonne were on foot. They were both armed and had a vehicle - and they were gathering supplies for the group. Those clues will make the governor more interested I think - where is the rest of the group and what else do they have? Vehicles, fuel, weapons, and ammo would likely be the first items the governor would consider based on the capture alone. I think they will find out that they are staying at the prison somehow and that will add to his interest - and there will probably be a confrontation when Rick and the others find Woodbury.


I agree. While I do think the Gov knew about the prison beforehand I don't think he thought it worth the risk. Now that he knows its viable and that there are people living there, I think he will want whatever resources he could get from it.

Although I think that shit will hit the fan even before the Gov realizes they are at the prison. Looks like Rick & Co next episode are about to go into Woodbury guns ablaze to save Glenn and Maggie so it seems the Gov would see them as a threat first and might try to kill them off the bat for being a threat, not for the supplies. I'm actually really curious to see where the next episode will take us. Gov seems to take a very manipulative approach, always trying to save face to others who don't know the truth about him. So I would be curious to see him do something out right evil that he can't later cover up or make excuses to Andrea for (I think he could argue Merle tried to kill Michonne on his own). I also am interested to see if he will continue to try to manipulate Andrea and keep her in the dark like the rest of Woodbury or be open with her about his tactics and expect her to be his right hand.
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#383
meesha1971

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I agree. While I do think the Gov knew about the prison beforehand I don't think he thought it worth the risk. Now that he knows its viable and that there are people living there, I think he will want whatever resources he could get from it.

Although I think that shit will hit the fan even before the Gov realizes they are at the prison. Looks like Rick & Co next episode are about to go into Woodbury guns ablaze to save Glenn and Maggie so it seems the Gov would see them as a threat first and might try to kill them off the bat for being a threat, not for the supplies. I'm actually really curious to see where the next episode will take us. Gov seems to take a very manipulative approach, always trying to save face to others who don't know the truth about him. So I would be curious to see him do something out right evil that he can't later cover up or make excuses to Andrea for (I think he could argue Merle tried to kill Michonne on his own). I also am interested to see if he will continue to try to manipulate Andrea and keep her in the dark like the rest of Woodbury or be open with her about his tactics and expect her to be his right hand.


I don't know if the governor knew there was a prison in the area - not saying he didn't, just that I'm not sure at this point. Most people don't think much about prisons - unless they're facing incarceration or know someone who was incarcerated. I wouldn't have thought of a prison as a good place to live post-apocalypse if TWD hadn't presented that as an option. It just never occurred to me. Now I think that would probably be the best place for anyone to go. The governor may have known and decided it wasn't worth losing men to clear out all the walkers - or he might not have known about it at all. Either way, the prison wouldn't be an option he would consider until after discovering that someone else had cleared out the walkers and was living there.

I think they will probably find out about the prison first - just from what we're seeing in the promo's, it seems the interrogation of Glenn and Maggie is going to be intense. I don't think either of them would willingly betray the group, but I can see them being tricked or forced into giving something away. I'm not sure how much of a threat the governor would consider Rick based on the small group he's taking to Woodbury - again, going by the promo. However, knowing they cleared out and have been living in the prison - that would make him see them as more of a threat I think.

I think these next two episodes will be quite exciting - and it will be nice for the Woodbury arc to actually be interesting for a change. So far that hasn't interested me at all. I've lost all faith in them doing anything plausible with Andrea's character at this point so I really wouldn't be surprised if she did side with the governor against Rick.
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#384
Judari

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I don't know if the governor knew there was a prison in the area - not saying he didn't, just that I'm not sure at this point. Most people don't think much about prisons - unless they're facing incarceration or know someone who was incarcerated. I wouldn't have thought of a prison as a good place to live post-apocalypse if TWD hadn't presented that as an option. It just never occurred to me. Now I think that would probably be the best place for anyone to go. The governor may have known and decided it wasn't worth losing men to clear out all the walkers - or he might not have known about it at all. Either way, the prison wouldn't be an option he would consider until after discovering that someone else had cleared out the walkers and was living there.

I think they will probably find out about the prison first - just from what we're seeing in the promo's, it seems the interrogation of Glenn and Maggie is going to be intense. I don't think either of them would willingly betray the group, but I can see them being tricked or forced into giving something away. I'm not sure how much of a threat the governor would consider Rick based on the small group he's taking to Woodbury - again, going by the promo. However, knowing they cleared out and have been living in the prison - that would make him see them as more of a threat I think.

I think these next two episodes will be quite exciting - and it will be nice for the Woodbury arc to actually be interesting for a change. So far that hasn't interested me at all. I've lost all faith in them doing anything plausible with Andrea's character at this point so I really wouldn't be surprised if she did side with the governor against Rick.


I think he knew about it just because of how close it is to Woodbury and they seem to have a really good grasp on what is in the surrounding area (I think Milton had a map in his lab). But I agree with you, as I have been saying in different threads, that he didn't think it worth the time or the risk to check it out. For all he knows it could be full of walkers and completely void of supplies. Other than supplies though or taking supplies from people set up in there, I can't really see why he would be interested in the prison itself. I also think a prison would be the best place to live post-ZA (once it was cleared out) but the prison goes against what the Gov is trying to do with Woodbury, which is re-creating the most normal pre-ZA life as possible.

But I'm going off the assumption that Glenn and Maggie don't cave in before Rick gets there. It's definitely possible they will but I'm think Rick and Co will make their appearance in Woodbury before then. Not before something terrible happens to one of them, but before any real information is given out. As far as Rick being a threat though, I don't think the Gov will be necessarily intimidated by Rick or the group size, its more of a matter of the threat of leaving any loose ends. Michonne, after she left, was not a threat either but he wanted her head (lol literally). Of course this could be in retaliation for her drawing her sword on him, rather than her knowledge of Woodbury, but even if its that I think that shows the Gov does not take lightly any form of opposition. So if Rick and Co, oppose the idea of assimilating into Woodbury, which they will, I don't think he would let them live. This isn't even factoring what Michonne reveals to them and the fact that Rick probably isn't going to take a diplomatic approach to the situation or even consider living in Woodbury. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are a lot more factors of why the Gov would want to get rid of Rick and Co, not just for the prison's supplies.

As far as Andrea, its a toss up. While I do have a different view on her than you do, I don't think she has done anything this season that would indicate she would be okay with the Gov hurting or torturing anyone. Yes, she chose the security of Woodbury over a nomadic life with Michonne, personally I don't fault her for that, but I don't think that means she would be okay with the Gov trying to kill Michonne or torturing Glenn and Maggie for that matter. The only way I see her still following the Gov is if he tries to blame it all on Merle going rouge (which also means the Gov would have no direct part in what happens to Maggie and Glenn and only pull the strings form the sidelines).
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#385
leon the pig farmer

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Maybe the Guv knew about the prison but knew it was overrun with walkers and didn't want to waste guys trying to clear it out? Now that Rick and his group have cleaned out the prison of walkers the Guv probably wants it. But, how would the Guv know that it was clear? I assuming that the Guv is guessing that Rick's group made it safe.
And now the Guv wants to take it over.

But, another but, how in the hell can the Guv convince his men and he's gonna need new recruits from woodbury, how will he convince the more innocent of them that Rick is a danger and they will have to kill Rick and the women and even the baby to take the prison? I think that the Guv will be SOL on this one.

Massacering the troops was one thing, that could be kept secret but now that the hardcore killers of the Guv;'s group are dead, thanks to Michonne, I seriously doubt he'll find many more recruits top carry out massacres on that scale.

Maybe he'll use Glenn and Maggie as hostages to get the prison? But what about Andrea?

I personally feel that the Guv will lose on this one, he doesn't have many cards to play and Ricks group, now that Michonne have joined them, will be ready for any attack. That prison is pretty impenetrable, considering that you have the walkers all outside acting as free guards. plus all it would take would be a few of Ricks group to cover the towers then the Guv will not have a fighting chance.

Can't wait til Sunday!
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#386
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To me, the issue isn't why would the Governor want the prison, at this point in the story he doesn't even know where Glen and Maggie are from. The issue is why interrogate Maggie and Glenn for this information in the first place? Why care where Maggie and Glen are from? The answer is, he's a crazy power hungry dictator. He doesn't want to just control Woodbury, he wants to control everything and everyone regardless of whether they are a true threat or not. Anyone outside of Woodbury is an enemy- ie. the soldiers, Michonne, etc. What threat was Michonne, a 100 lb woman alone with a sword on the outside of the gates. After she left Woodbury, any rational person would have left her alone. Afterall, he'd already gotten what he wanted, which was Andrea. But that wasn't enough for him, he had to destroy Michonne because if she wasn't going to be a part of Woodbury, she was going to be dead. If she wasn't going to bow down and kiss his ass, she was going to be dead. The Governor is trying to build his own Roman Empire, and conquer everything around him.
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#387
leon the pig farmer

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To me, the issue isn't why would the Governor want the prison, at this point in the story he doesn't even know where Glen and Maggie are from. The issue is why interrogate Maggie and Glenn for this information in the first place? Why care where Maggie and Glen are from? The answer is, he's a crazy power hungry dictator. He doesn't want to just control Woodbury, he wants to control everything and everyone regardless of whether they are a true threat or not. Anyone outside of Woodbury is an enemy- ie. the soldiers, Michonne, etc. What threat was Michonne, a 100 lb woman alone with a sword on the outside of the gates. After she left Woodbury, any rational person would have left her alone. Afterall, he'd already gotten what he wanted, which was Andrea. But that wasn't enough for him, he had to destroy Michonne because if she wasn't going to be a part of Woodbury, she was going to be dead. If she wasn't going to bow down and kiss his ass, she was going to be dead. The Governor is trying to build his own Roman Empire, and conquer everything around him.



BUT he's not conquering anything, he's simply slaughtering everything he sees. That is not how empires are made.

I just saw the deleted scene where the Vatos were slaughtered, it doesn't make sense why the Guv would do this. Killing for scraps of food???

Why doesn't he find some land, plant crops, build a loyal army rather than massacring everyone who has a few tins of out of date food.
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#388
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I highly enjoyed the episode, breaking it down:

Rick - As others have said, brilliant acting. I was worried that this scene might be a total disaster but he acted it out really well, I expected him to ladle the emotion on to exaggerated levels like he did during the initial death scene. I'm one of the people who felt
that his acting of that was overkill, but this episode was portrayed beautifly by him.

Daryl - I love every scene with Daryl and the little heart to heart he had with Carl I particularly enjoyed. We don't get much background on Daryl so it was nice to see him talk about his mother. Carl is fast becomming one of my favorite characters, he's
changed so much since last season it's ridiculous, but believable.

Carol - I'm not a fan of Carol, I'd rather she hadn't been found but I knew that wasn't going to happen. I just hope they don't do the Daryl x Carol romance because that will totally ruin Daryl's character for me.

Andrea x Guv - Well that didn't come as a surprise. I like Andrea a lot though and I don't understand why she's gettig so much stick from viewers. I have to say, even though I love the rest of the group, Woodbury scenes are grabbing me more right now. It's just the calm before the storm feeling. I can tell shits gonna hit the fan soon and when it does, it will be awesome.

Michonne reaching the prison!!!!!!!! I love that she brought the baby formula back, can't wait to see her interacting with Rick and Co on Sunday. No offence T-Dog but Oscar should have been the token black guy from the start!
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#389
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BUT he's not conquering anything, he's simply slaughtering everything he sees. That is not how empires are made.

I just saw the deleted scene where the Vatos were slaughtered, it doesn't make sense why the Guv would do this. Killing for scraps of food???

Why doesn't he find some land, plant crops, build a loyal army rather than massacring everyone who has a few tins of out of date food.


Well that goes back to the crazy thing. His actions are not rational or logical, so to try and impose logic to his actions isn't going to work. That is the larger point I was making in my post. Of course it doesn't make sense, he's psychotic! What kind of person keeps floating heads in a fish tank, or pages and pages of gibberish in a notebook. The crazy train left a long time ago with this guy.

I'm sure the Vatos weren't going to submit to the Governor or give up their weapons to him, so even if he gave them a chance to submit, which I doubt, its unlikely they would have accepted. They're going to defend their right to freedom, just as Rick's group is going to. The Governor is not a live and let live kind of guy.
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#390
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There were two small moments in this episode that may have mean't nothing to others, but I liked.

Oscar being happy about finding the slippers was very touching to me. I know from experience when everything around you has gone FUBAR, sometimes the smallest shred of normal life to hang on to can mean the difference between losing it totally or cowboying up and going about your business.

Also the scene when Oscar, Daryl, and Carl were in the cell and Overkill Walker eased up behind them was funny. All three unloaded on him. Then they glanced at each other and Daryl gave this funny little shrug. I have seen that done in real life. Without saying a word you tell each other, "Damn, that scared the s##t out of us, but we're still bada##, right? Damn straight we are! Hell yes!."
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"Kiss your Mother goodnight, and remember that God saves."

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#391
Vicki48

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I don't know if I would agree that Daryl felt rejected by Carol. I think it's a bit more complex. Daryl held on to the hope that they would find Sophia alive and well right up to that moment she stepped out of the barn as a walker. The longer the search went on, the others gradually gave up hope that they would find her alive. Even Carol told Daryl that he shouldn't risk his life again when Sophia was probably dead - which resulted in him lashing out at her. It seems more that Daryl felt that he had failed. He had opened himself up both in letting the group see how much he cared about finding Sophia and in trying to comfort Carol to give her hope and it was all for nothing.

The hope of finding Sophia was something for Daryl to hold on to - a symbol that things could get better and they could overcome this. Instead it was another failure - and it was a more personal failure for Daryl because he had put so much effort into finding her and nearly died himself in the process. I think he was starting to give up himself - what was the point of trying so hard when they continually failed?


Everyone else, Carol included, had accepted the likelihood of Sophia’s death. My guess is Daryl assumed the same But whether he did or not, the recognition that she was not only dead but a walker didn’t appear (to me) to unhinge (I know, too strong a word) him. On the contrary, his immediate behavior was very typical of someone wanting to express sympathy. He brought flowers, and waited around uncomfortably trying to discern what it was Carol needed said or done. Her response to that appeared to me an emotional shutting down and closing off, which is one way grieving is expressed. I still feel Daryl misread it.

Now maybe I’m missing a chunk of the timeline, but from what I recall the emotional distancing took place almost immediately following that event. Admittedly he estranged himself from everyone, but while his dealings with the rest of the group became unpleasant, they were vitriolic with Carol. He wasn’t interested in cutting himself off from her. He wanted her wounded. You don’t tell someone she’s the reason her child is dead—Not even someone you can’t stand. But people who are emotionally very close will.

I don't get this relationship (it isn't like something I've experienced), but I do think it is vital to understanding Daryl.
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#392
meesha1971

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Everyone else, Carol included, had accepted the likelihood of Sophia’s death. My guess is Daryl assumed the same But whether he did or not, the recognition that she was not only dead but a walker didn’t appear (to me) to unhinge (I know, too strong a word) him. On the contrary, his immediate behavior was very typical of someone wanting to express sympathy. He brought flowers, and waited around uncomfortably trying to discern what it was Carol needed said or done. Her response to that appeared to me an emotional shutting down and closing off, which is one way grieving is expressed. I still feel Daryl misread it.

Now maybe I’m missing a chunk of the timeline, but from what I recall the emotional distancing took place almost immediately following that event. Admittedly he estranged himself from everyone, but while his dealings with the rest of the group became unpleasant, they were vitriolic with Carol. He wasn’t interested in cutting himself off from her. He wanted her wounded. You don’t tell someone she’s the reason her child is dead—Not even someone you can’t stand. But people who are emotionally very close will.

I don't get this relationship (it isn't like something I've experienced), but I do think it is vital to understanding Daryl.


I had to go back and watch those episodes again because I didn't remember Daryl having flowers - and he didn't. Immediately after the barn incident, Carl went to the RV and Daryl followed her. He still had the gun he'd been using, but no flowers. He and Carol sat there in silence - it wasn't awkward at that point. He was just sitting with her while the others took care of the bodies. When Lori came to tell them they were ready to bury Sophia, Carol said that wasn't Sophia - her little girl died a long time ago. She wasn't accusing anyone of anything - really, I think there was some relief for her in knowing what had happened and knowing for sure that Sophia had not spent nights in the woods alone, hungry, crying herself to sleep, etc... She had died that first day. As far as flowers go, the only thing I saw was Carol finding that bush of Cherokee roses and tearing it apart in her grief. She was alone when she did that though.

Daryl moved his things farther away from the group immediately after the conversation in the RV. It was Lori who found him first - wanting him to go to town to get Rick and Hershel because Beth was catatonic. Daryl lashed out at her - talking about how he had been out every single day looking for Sophia and had taken an arrow and a bullet. He said he was done looking for people. Carol found him later - she was looking for Lori - and Daryl said she must have gone looking for Rick and Hershel on her own. Carol asked him why he hadn't said anything before and he lashed out again - it wasn't his problem. Sophia hadn't been his problem either. She left him alone then, but went back later and asked him not to do this. She told him he had earned his place. He lashed out at her again - said Sophia hadn't been his and saying Carol should have kept a better eye on her, etc... He also made a comment about his father that I had forgotten - "you gonna make this about my daddy?". With what we've learned about Daryl since, I find that interesting - might not mean anything, but it does fit with Daryl having issues with his father and Merle I think.

Understanding Daryl is the key to understanding his behavior here. Nobody rejected Daryl or did anything that would make him feel rejected. On the contrary, they were still including him and Lori and Carol both went to him first when they needed help. It was Daryl who was rejecting the group. Shutting down emotionally and lashing out in anger are Daryl's defense mechanisms. He separated himself from the others and lashed out at Lori and Carol for trying to pull him back in because he was grieving and angry about Sophia's death. Lori didn't mention Sophia - Daryl did because her death was eating at him. Carol didn't mention her directly, but Daryl goes off about Sophia with her as well. He was grieving and I don't think he really knew any other way to deal with it. He had tried so hard, but he had failed. He was really angry with himself, but he took it out on Lori and Carol because he wasn't ready to deal with it yet. That's a common defense mechanism - particularly with people who grew up being abused and/or neglected. Daryl is stunted in terms of his emotional development because of his father and Merle. Getting closer to the group has helped him with that and he is opening up more instead of just lashing out in anger.

Watching that scene again, I think Carol was actually the best person to deal with Daryl lashing out. Having been abused herself, she knows where it's coming from. She knows how much Daryl put into finding Sophia - holding on to hope even when she was starting to give up. She doesn't argue with him or fight back and that was the best way to handle it because what Daryl needed most at that point was an outlet. She let him vent - told him to go ahead. He gets that out of his system and calms down. He keeps his camp separated, but he starts rejoining the group the following morning - preparing to go with Shane and Andrea to look for Rick and Hershel. They returned with Randall first and Daryl joined the meeting about what to do with Randall - though he didn't contribute anything and left without saying a word after. It was a gradual process, but letting Daryl vent his anger helped to prevent him from isolating himself completely.

On a side note, there is a really interesting shot in that episode after they bury Sophia and Hershel's family. The camera is high, panning down on the group and they all go off in separate directions - Daryl first, then the others. Sophia's death fractured the group. Glenn told Maggie that finding her alive meant something - losing one of the kids in the group was very different from losing one of the adults. Daryl points that out to Dale later - the group is broken. It was Dale's death that brought them back together - apart from Shane anyway.
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#393
wyrd

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After Merle leaves Wodbury and encounters michone, he kills his associate because he wants to go after her. Merle dont like the odds and sucker shoots.WHy does he not go back to Woodbury the way he came from instead of going to the Mini Mall, store, whatever it was.
Basically, he did what his murdered compadre had suggested. He went to the same place Michone went to, though he did not know she was there.

Maybe he got lost or changed his mind. It just seems strange he killed the guy then instead of backtracking he goes into the"red zone" where he seemed afraid to go earlier.


I was surprised as well, but then I thought: he's looking for a car to get back to Woodbury, he found a road and followed to the parking where he found Glenn and Maggie.
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#394
Judari

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To me, the issue isn't why would the Governor want the prison, at this point in the story he doesn't even know where Glen and Maggie are from. The issue is why interrogate Maggie and Glenn for this information in the first place? Why care where Maggie and Glen are from? The answer is, he's a crazy power hungry dictator. He doesn't want to just control Woodbury, he wants to control everything and everyone regardless of whether they are a true threat or not. Anyone outside of Woodbury is an enemy- ie. the soldiers, Michonne, etc. What threat was Michonne, a 100 lb woman alone with a sword on the outside of the gates. After she left Woodbury, any rational person would have left her alone. Afterall, he'd already gotten what he wanted, which was Andrea. But that wasn't enough for him, he had to destroy Michonne because if she wasn't going to be a part of Woodbury, she was going to be dead. If she wasn't going to bow down and kiss his ass, she was going to be dead. The Governor is trying to build his own Roman Empire, and conquer everything around him.


I don't think its about controlling everyone else so much as it is wanting to maintain and control what he has built with Woodbury. He is super controlling and paranoid when he comes to Woodbury because he fears if he isn't something will go wrong and the whole town will go to shit. The individual and small groups of average people, once they have been assessed as non threats would probably be assimilated, like Andrea and Michonne.

My thoughts on why he wanted to kill Michonne were 1)She did draw her sword on him so revenge for that 2)More likely however, I don't think he wants anyone out there with the knowledge of Woodbury. For all the Gov knows she could join up with a group sizable enough to overrun them or at the very least cause them problems. He would rather not leave any loose ends.

I would also say that while he is trying to build his own mini Roman Empire, he isn't actively trying to conquer everything around him. His style is waiting until a group/person happens upon Woodbury and then if they are deemed a threat or can't be assimilated he will kill them and take their supplies. As far as the prison, I don't think he will want it. Supplies, yes, but not the actual structure. If Maggie and Glenn happened upon Woodbury, I'm sure he would interrogate them anyway but in the way of Andrea and Michonne. Only reason they are getting the rough treatment is because Merle wants the information about where his brother is but logically, (even without knowing anything about the Gov) Merle cannot be trusted enough to know where they are staying.

Not trying to justify the Gov's character as what he is doing is still horrible but there is logic behind his actions. He has a few screws loose to be sure, but he is capable of logic and is an excellent manipulator.
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#395
PurpleUnicorn

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I don't think its about controlling everyone else so much as it is wanting to maintain and control what he has built with Woodbury. He is super controlling and paranoid when he comes to Woodbury because he fears if he isn't something will go wrong and the whole town will go to shit. The individual and small groups of average people, once they have been assessed as non threats would probably be assimilated, like Andrea and Michonne.

My thoughts on why he wanted to kill Michonne were 1)She did draw her sword on him so revenge for that 2)More likely however, I don't think he wants anyone out there with the knowledge of Woodbury. For all the Gov knows she could join up with a group sizable enough to overrun them or at the very least cause them problems. He would rather not leave any loose ends.

I would also say that while he is trying to build his own mini Roman Empire, he isn't actively trying to conquer everything around him. His style is waiting until a group/person happens upon Woodbury and then if they are deemed a threat or can't be assimilated he will kill them and take their supplies. As far as the prison, I don't think he will want it. Supplies, yes, but not the actual structure. If Maggie and Glenn happened upon Woodbury, I'm sure he would interrogate them anyway but in the way of Andrea and Michonne. Only reason they are getting the rough treatment is because Merle wants the information about where his brother is but logically, (even without knowing anything about the Gov) Merle cannot be trusted enough to know where they are staying.

Not trying to justify the Gov's character as what he is doing is still horrible but there is logic behind his actions. He has a few screws loose to be sure, but he is capable of logic and is an excellent manipulator.



Yes, I agree the Governor is capable of logic, but it’s a twisted logic. It’s not rational.

I disagree that the Governor is “waiting until a group/person happens upon Woodbury.” It’s the exact opposite. Michonne and Andrea where in the woods when they were taken at gunpoint to Woodbury, the soldiers were at their site when the Governor tracked them down and assassinated them, the Vatos were at their home when the Governor killed them all, and so he’s not just waiting until people stumble upon Woodbury. He’s actively going out and seeking out other groups to kill and destroy. Anyone outside of Woodbury is perceived as a threat. The only reason why Michonne and Andrea were not automatically killed is because they were two women alone, not much of a threat. Merle also was alone, therefore he could be made to submit and be loyal. But any kind of group doesn’t stand a chance with this guy. Basically, his logic is that any group outside of Woodbury is a threat to Woodbury and therefore must be destroyed. So no other group can exist peacefully outside of Woodbury in his mind. Why can’t there be other towns or communities such as Woodbury where each community is self sufficient and keeps to themselves? The fact that no other group/community can exist outside of Woodbury is an indication of how his thinking has become twisted.

The Governor has more than just a few screws loose, I can say that my wacky neighbor who sometimes forgets to wear underwear has a few screws lose. The Governor is in another category altogether. People don’t grasp the full extent of his lunacy because on the surface he’s very charismatic and seems to just be trying to protect his people… on the surface. But under the surface there's a whole sea of crazy that I'm sure we'll see a lot more of in future episodes.

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#396
Judari

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Yes, I agree the Governor is capable of logic, but it’s a twisted logic. It’s not rational.

I disagree that the Governor is “waiting until a group/person happens upon Woodbury.” It’s the exact opposite. Michonne and Andrea where in the woods when they were taken at gunpoint to Woodbury, the soldiers were at their site when the Governor tracked them down and assassinated them, the Vatos were at their home when the Governor killed them all, and so he’s not just waiting until people stumble upon Woodbury. He’s actively going out and seeking out other groups to kill and destroy. Anyone outside of Woodbury is perceived as a threat. The only reason why Michonne and Andrea were not automatically killed is because they were two women alone, not much of a threat. Merle also was alone, therefore he could be made to submit and be loyal. But any kind of group doesn’t stand a chance with this guy.



I disagree. Guns were drawn on Michonne and Andrea in the beginning because 1)Its become standard to draw guns on anyone you approach in ZA and 2)They were hiding, which would be suspicious from the Gov's perspective. Merle lowered his weapon once he recognized Andrea.

The military example actually goes along with what I was saying though. The Gov went to investigate the crash (did he cause the crash? Wasn't clear on that) he didn't kill the soldier on the spot like you suggested he would automatically do to a threat though. He took the soldier back, found out where his unit was and if they had supplies, then killed him and his unit for the supplies. What I meant by "waiting until someone happens upon Woodbury" was that he waits until a member from a group comes to Woodbury, then he finds out if they have any supplies he could use, then would go out and kill that member's group for their supplies if they could not be assimilated. So while he does leave Woodbury to kill other groups for their supplies, he doesn't do so until he's established that there will be a payout. His goons aren't actively roaming the highways near Woodbury killing people.

Also was it confirmed somewhere that I missed that the Gov killed the Vatos? If not then its only an assumption but if so, did it go into detail? How do we know a member of Vatos didn't find Woodbury and lead the Gov back to it?

Basically, his logic is that any group outside of Woodbury is a threat to Woodbury and therefore must be destroyed. So no other group can exist peacefully outside of Woodbury in his mind. Why can’t there be other towns or communities such as Woodbury where each community is self sufficient and keeps to themselves? The fact that no other group/community can exist outside of Woodbury is an indication of how his thinking has become twisted.


I don't think we have gotten any indication that the Gov is against other communities like Woodbury, or even other groups existing independent of Woodbury. His concern is solely with the security and maintenance of Woodbury alone. That said, in securing Woodbury, he has shown that he is more than willing to kill anyone who has something that could improve Woodbury.

As a result of his own ruthlessness he is concerned with the possibility that other groups, if they found out about Woodbury, would be just as ruthless and try to raid it for supplies for themselves. This is why he would never allow a group to leave Woodbury after they discovered it. However, given with what we've seen, initially with the Vatos, Randall's group, the prisoners (excluding Oscar and Axel) and now the Gov, that a lot of people in ZA would rather kill someone for their gear for their own group, then allow them to keep it peacefully or even share. So while I'm not justifying the Gov's logic or tactics, and I do think they are twisted. At the same time I don't think his tactics are an anomaly in ZA by any means. People are out to survive anyway they can, even if it means encroaching on others. Even Rick, to a much much lesser extent, pushed on Hershel and his family to share the farm when Hershel just wanted him to leave.


The Governor has more than just a few screws loose, I can say that my wacky neighbor who sometimes forgets to wear underwear has a few screws lose. The Governor is in another category altogether. People don’t grasp the full extent of his lunacy because on the surface he’s very charismatic and seems to just be trying to protect his people… on the surface. But under the surface there's a whole sea of crazy that I'm sure we'll see a lot more of in future episodes.


Oh I agree he's crazy, he fits most if not all the characteristics of a sociopath. But he's also not terrorizing the town people either (from what we have seen). I also think though we will see him do a lot more drastic things in the upcoming episodes as well.
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#397
Deadpelican

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Maybe the Guv knew about the prison but knew it was overrun with walkers and didn't want to waste guys trying to clear it out?


Yeah, I thought that as well. I thought the person watching it might have been with the governor (it turned out to be Andrew).

I wondered though if the governor was waiting for some poor bastards to do all the hard work clearing the walkers out and then maybe he'd kill them all and take the prison's supplies.

Remember what the guv said "We're going out there and taking back what's ours." He thinks that everything out there rightfully belongs to him and Woodburry.
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#398
PurpleUnicorn

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I disagree. Guns were drawn on Michonne and Andrea in the beginning because 1)Its become standard to draw guns on anyone you approach in ZA and 2)They were hiding, which would be suspicious from the Gov's perspective. Merle lowered his weapon once he recognized Andrea.

The military example actually goes along with what I was saying though. The Gov went to investigate the crash (did he cause the crash? Wasn't clear on that) he didn't kill the soldier on the spot like you suggested he would automatically do to a threat though. He took the soldier back, found out where his unit was and if they had supplies, then killed him and his unit for the supplies. What I meant by "waiting until someone happens upon Woodbury" was that he waits until a member from a group comes to Woodbury, then he finds out if they have any supplies he could use, then would go out and kill that member's group for their supplies if they could not be assimilated. So while he does leave Woodbury to kill other groups for their supplies, he doesn't do so until he's established that there will be a payout. His goons aren't actively roaming the highways near Woodbury killing people.

Also was it confirmed somewhere that I missed that the Gov killed the Vatos? If not then its only an assumption but if so, did it go into detail? How do we know a member of Vatos didn't find Woodbury and lead the Gov back to it?



I don't think we have gotten any indication that the Gov is against other communities like Woodbury, or even other groups existing independent of Woodbury. His concern is solely with the security and maintenance of Woodbury alone. That said, in securing Woodbury, he has shown that he is more than willing to kill anyone who has something that could improve Woodbury.

As a result of his own ruthlessness he is concerned with the possibility that other groups, if they found out about Woodbury, would be just as ruthless and try to raid it for supplies for themselves. This is why he would never allow a group to leave Woodbury after they discovered it. However, given with what we've seen, initially with the Vatos, Randall's group, the prisoners (excluding Oscar and Axel) and now the Gov, that a lot of people in ZA would rather kill someone for their gear for their own group, then allow them to keep it peacefully or even share. So while I'm not justifying the Gov's logic or tactics, and I do think they are twisted. At the same time I don't think his tactics are an anomaly in ZA by any means. People are out to survive anyway they can, even if it means encroaching on others. Even Rick, to a much much lesser extent, pushed on Hershel and his family to share the farm when Hershel just wanted him to leave.




Oh I agree he's crazy, he fits most if not all the characteristics of a sociopath. But he's also not terrorizing the town people either (from what we have seen). I also think though we will see him do a lot more drastic things in the upcoming episodes as well.


Ok, so I'm not seeing the discrepancy here??? You seem to be agreeing with me by saying "So while I'm not justifying the Gov's logic or tactics, and I do think they are twisted." That's my point. From the beginning I've been saying the Governor is crazy, therefore we have to look at his actions from the standpoint of someone who is not dealing with a full deck. You also say "Oh I agree he's crazy, he fits most if not all the characteristics of a sociopath." Ok, well by definition a crazy person's thinking is going to be twisted. So what are you disagreeing with exactly, I'm confused :wallmad:

I just rewatched the scene and Merle did not lower his gun when he recognized Andrea. Michonne and Andrea were not asked if they wanted to go to Woodbury, they were forced to go. Regarding the military guys, its true the Governor interrogated the lone survivor of the plane crash in order to obtain information, however his intention was always to kill him. And he did so once he obtained the information about the location of the other soldiers, who he killed on the spot. So just because he waits to obtain information prior to killing him, so what, he was always going to kill him because he was a perceived threat and he wanted their stuff. So what's your point? Regarding the Vatos, it was a deleted scene in season 2, which the director indicated was deleted because they didn't want to introduce the Woodbury aspect in the beginning of season 2. So again innocent people (most old and geriatric) minding their own business and trying to survive, the Governor decides to kill them because he wants their weapons, food, medical supplies, etc... Again, that's logical, but twisted logic. So he goes around killing anyone and everyone that may have something he and his group wants or needs? Other people are ALWAYS going to have something another may want or need, that's how life is. So by that logic he has carte blanche to just kill everyone I guess.

Furthermore, none of these people "happened upon Woodbury", which you keep saying but isn't true. Neither the military soldier nor Andrea & Michonne happened upon Woodbury. They were in the woods somewhere when the Governor and his group found them, and took them back to Woodbury. Please name an example where someone just wandered up to Woodbury gates, because I haven't seen it. So he is leaving Woodbury to find these people, and yes, hunt them down and kill them for their stuff if they are deemed a threat. Just because its the ZA doesn't mean you have to lose your morals as a human being and go around killing other humans. All of the humans the Governor killed were innocent people just trying to survive in the post apocalyptic world; he didn't do it for survival or because he was in imminent danger. The Governor at this point is a serial killer.
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#399
Judari

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Ok, so I'm not seeing the discrepancy here??? You seem to be agreeing with me by saying "So while I'm not justifying the Gov's logic or tactics, and I do think they are twisted." That's my point. From the beginning I've been saying the Governor is crazy, therefore we have to look at his actions from the standpoint of someone who is not dealing with a full deck. You also say "Oh I agree he's crazy, he fits most if not all the characteristics of a sociopath." Ok, well by definition a crazy person's thinking is going to be twisted. So what are you disagreeing with exactly, I'm confused :wallmad:


What I was saying that while the Gov is a sociopath and is very twisted, he is still capable of applying logic and is very smart. He's manipulating an entire town for crying out loud! He may be crazy but that doesn't impair his thinking at all. I'd call him more of an evil genius, a Moriarty if you will. In fact that dynamic of Sherlock and Moriarty might actually be applicable to Rick and the Gov, even more so as the show progresses. Rick is loosing his mind a bit too, he's talking to dead people on telephones now. Gov watches heads and keeps his dead daughter. Gov like Moriarty's eccentricities are definitely more twisted and evil compared to Rick's own, but comparable none the less. Despite both men loosing touch on reality to a certain degree, to disregard them like you would a normal crazy person would be underestimating their capabilities (Just like how people would initially want to disregard Sherlock or Moriarty). O So I'm saying, yeah, call him crazy cause he is, but don't be so dismissive about it as you would the average crazy person running around with underwear on their heads because obviously he is much more dangerous and his crazy his more subtle to those on the outside.

(Apologize if you aren't a Sherlock fan and don't get that connection but I realized it as I was typing the response and had to throw it in!).

I just rewatched the scene and Merle did not lower his gun when he recognized Andrea. Michonne and Andrea were not asked if they wanted to go to Woodbury, they were forced to go. Regarding the military guys, its true the Governor interrogated the lone survivor of the plane crash in order to obtain information, however his intention was always to kill him. And he did so once he obtained the information about the location of the other soldiers, who he killed on the spot. So just because he waits to obtain information prior to killing him, so what, he was always going to kill him because he was a perceived threat and he wanted their stuff. So what's your point? Regarding the Vatos, it was a deleted scene in season 2, which the director indicated was deleted because they didn't want to introduce the Woodbury aspect in the beginning of season 2. So again innocent people (most old and geriatric) minding their own business and trying to survive, the Governor decides to kill them because he wants their weapons, food, medical supplies, etc... Again, that's logical, but twisted logic. So he goes around killing anyone and everyone that may have something he and his group wants or needs? Other people are ALWAYS going to have something another may want or need, that's how life is. So by that logic he has carte blanche to just kill everyone I guess.


I thought he lowered his gun, my mistake, but his whole attitude definitely changed when he recognized Andrea. I would honestly be interested to see how the scene would have played out if Merle had not been there but Andrea and Michonne were still discovered. Andrea passed out and the next we saw they were being taken blindfolded into Woodbury. I wonder if they would have been taken at all if Andrea wasn't visibly ill, a way the Gov could play favors? Or if Merle wasn't there to recognize her and possibly get information about Daryl? Additionally, I think the only reason Michonne went without a fight in the first place is because she knew she couldn't care for Andrea by herself in that condition. If Andrea was well, Merle wasn't there and they put up resistance telling the Gov anything or giving up their weapons, it is likely they would have been killed on the spot. That whole scene I view as a huge plot device to get things started in Woodbury, there is just too many factors happening all at once for it not to be.

I never said that they always did not plan to kill the military guy they saved. You inferred that they would kill people on the spot in your last post and by using the military example I said that the Gov would rather befriend the person, if possible, for information first before killing them.

I just rewatched that full scene with the Vatos (only saw a clip of it before). I do think there are some kinks to be worked out with exactly how that situation would have went down if it was in fact the Gov but I already addressed that in the Vatos thread tonight.

Furthermore, none of these people "happened upon Woodbury", which you keep saying but isn't true. Neither the military soldier nor Andrea & Michonne happened upon Woodbury. They were in the woods somewhere when the Governor and his group found them, and took them back to Woodbury. Please name an example where someone just wandered up to Woodbury gates, because I haven't seen it. So he is leaving Woodbury to find these people, and yes, hunt them down and kill them for their stuff if they are deemed a threat. Just because its the ZA doesn't mean you have to lose your morals as a human being and go around killing other humans. All of the humans the Governor killed were innocent people just trying to survive in the post apocalyptic world; he didn't do it for survival or because he was in imminent danger. The Governor at this point is a serial killer.


"Happened upon Woodbury" meaning in the vicinity. I definitely think the Gov keeps a tight watch on the area around Woodbury, we've seen them map out areas as well as keep a special place for trapping walkers, so how else would he have known about the crash? It's not like the helicopter crashed 50 miles away. Unless the Gov saw it and happened to be following it themselves on the road after seeing it in the sky, the crash would have had to happen somewhere close to Woodbury. How else otherwise would they have been able to get there so quickly right when Michonne and Andrea did?

"Just because its the ZA doesn't mean you have to lose your morals as a human being and go around killing other humans" But that issue is exactly what this entire show has been about from S2 up until now, especially with the moral battles of Dale vs. Shane vs. Rick involving Randall. New world vs. Old world is the old ideals vs. the new. It's part of what inspired the Ricktatorship speech and even Lori before she died tells Carl "He's going to beat this world." So there has been acknowledgement by plenty characters that this is a different world they are living in that requires different tactics. However, since it is a new world morals and even what is considered right and wrong might change to fit in the new world and survive. I think people are looking at it through the perspective of living in a non-ZA world, which is one way to approach it but not practical to apply to the characters on the show. Just as I said before the Gov isn't the only ones to use the tactics of encroaching on others, everyone so far on the show has done it. Hello? Rick and Co, pushing in on Hershel's farm! Even the Vatos who were ultimately seen as good guys, were about to get in a shoot out over the guns if the old lady hadn't of shown up. Right or wrong, pulling guns out on someone who you don't know, being apprehensive to a new group of people, manipulating, stealing or killing people for supplies isn't uncommon post ZA regardless of how immoral it is. Gov is definitely the most extreme and ruthless that we have seen so far but it is a theme that we have seen in the show even before him so I don't know why everyone treating it as its something new.
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#400
backwoodsroamer

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What I was saying that while the Gov is a sociopath and is very twisted, he is still capable of applying logic and is very smart. He's manipulating an entire town for crying out loud! He may be crazy but that doesn't impair his thinking at all. I'd call him more of an evil genius, a Moriarty if you will. In fact that dynamic of Sherlock and Moriarty might actually be applicable to Rick and the Gov, even more so as the show progresses. Rick is loosing his mind a bit too, he's talking to dead people on telephones now. Gov watches heads and keeps his dead daughter. Gov like Moriarty's eccentricities are definitely more twisted and evil compared to Rick's own, but comparable none the less. Despite both men loosing touch on reality to a certain degree, to disregard them like you would a normal crazy person would be underestimating their capabilities (Just like how people would initially want to disregard Sherlock or Moriarty). O So I'm saying, yeah, call him crazy cause he is, but don't be so dismissive about it as you would the average crazy person running around with underwear on their heads because obviously he is much more dangerous and his crazy his more subtle to those on the outside.


Judari, I love the comparison to Holmes and Moriarty. Who would be Watson? Hershel is a doctor (vet) and he certainly has a bad leg. I've been a Holmes fan all my life.

You make a very good point about the Gov possibly being a sociopath. Most folks think of a sociopath as a crazed individual running about with an ax. High functioning individuals are usually extremely intelligent, very good at being a chameleon to fit in, appear very social and charming, are manipulative, and are quite able to plan and execute complex operations. Unfortunately they have absolutely no sense of responsibility, morality, or guilt.

Here's a link if anyone is interested. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

I was diagnosed with Schizoid Personality disorder many years ago. I got interested in sociopaths because they share many of the character traits of SPDs. Both are hard to diagnose and are extremely hard to treat. The are both very rare fortunately. I have only met one other SPD in my life. Then again it's not something you make small talk about while mingling at a party.

Here's a link to that too. I'm what's known as a Secret Schizoid http://en.wikipedia....nality_disorder

"Just because its the ZA doesn't mean you have to lose your morals as a human being and go around killing other humans" But that issue is exactly what this entire show has been about from S2 up until now, especially with the moral battles of Dale vs. Shane vs. Rick involving Randall. New world vs. Old world is the old ideals vs. the new. It's part of what inspired the Ricktatorship speech and even Lori before she died tells Carl "He's going to beat this world." So there has been acknowledgement by plenty characters that this is a different world they are living in that requires different tactics. However, since it is a new world morals and even what is considered right and wrong might change to fit in the new world and survive. I think people are looking at it through the perspective of living in a non-ZA world, which is one way to approach it but not practical to apply to the characters on the show. Just as I said before the Gov isn't the only ones to use the tactics of encroaching on others, everyone so far on the show has done it. Hello? Rick and Co, pushing in on Hershel's farm! Even the Vatos who were ultimately seen as good guys, were about to get in a shoot out over the guns if the old lady hadn't of shown up. Right or wrong, pulling guns out on someone who you don't know, being apprehensive to a new group of people, manipulating, stealing or killing people for supplies isn't uncommon post ZA regardless of how immoral it is. Gov is definitely the most extreme and ruthless that we have seen so far but it is a theme that we have seen in the show even before him so I don't know why everyone treating it as its something new.


Unfortunately no ZA is needed for humanity to act in such a fashion. I've seen all this and much more happen in third world countries when they hit the skids. Humanity and human life become something of little value under such circumstances.
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"Kiss your Mother goodnight, and remember that God saves."

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