#126
11 November 2012 - 02:31 PM
#127
11 November 2012 - 03:48 PM
I also think the third grave may be foreshadowing by the writers. Someone else may die soon.
"I never stopped having my shit together." ~Michonne
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#128
12 November 2012 - 09:44 PM
I think from the characters' perspective, they are digging the third grave because they truly believe Carol is dead. For them, where else would she be? Surely by the time they begin digging graves she would have turned up. Why wouldn't she? She has nothing to fear from them.
I also think the third grave may be foreshadowing by the writers. Someone else may die soon.
But the third grave was filled in and Daryll placed a Cherokee rose on her grave, his flower for Sophia.
#129
12 November 2012 - 10:04 PM
I think from the characters' perspective, they are digging the third grave because they truly believe Carol is dead. For them, where else would she be? Surely by the time they begin digging graves she would have turned up. Why wouldn't she? She has nothing to fear from them.
I also think the third grave may be foreshadowing by the writers. Someone else may die soon.
Someone whose name starts with a "C".
#130
14 November 2012 - 01:27 PM
#131
14 November 2012 - 01:45 PM
It was carols fault that t-dog got bit in the first place. They both ran towards the fence. t-dog took point. carol was supposed to watch his back. T-dog got to the fence and pushes the walkers back and tried to close the gate. While he was doing this, carol randomly disappeared into the door of some pourta pottie looking building. Nobody is watching t-dog's back, and the walker sneaks up behind him and gets him. Carol than conveniently comes out of the john and screams "noooo!" I don't know if this meant anything or was it just weird directing but T expected carol to be watching his back and she went to go drop a deuce instead. She should die. Very cowardly. Please stop sticking up for her
The Carol haters agree with you but a good number of other people don't, me included. So I'll stick up for Carol if I wish. Some posters have rewatched and analyzed the scene and come to a different conclusion than you have.
Carol and T-Dog both ran towards the gate shooting walkers, and while T-Dog went to the gate, Carol checked out the door they both fled through. Did she make a mistake or did T-Dog, did both she and T-Dog miss the walker that bit him, or were there just too many walkers around them?
Perhaps T-Dog was your favourite character but it was the writers that got rid of him. They can’t add too many new characters to the show without losing some of the old ones. They have to pay them and find a story and screen time for them. Why do you think that T-Dog and Lori went? The fact that the production now has to pay the actors playing Michonne, the Governor, Merle and Axel was surely part of the reason.
#132
14 November 2012 - 02:05 PM
The Carol haters agree with you but a good number of other people don't, me included. So I'll stick up for Carol if I wish. Some posters have rewatched and analyzed the scene and come to a different conclusion than you have.
Carol and T-Dog both ran towards the gate shooting walkers, and while T-Dog went to the gate, Carol checked out the door they both fled through. Did she make a mistake or did T-Dog, did both she and T-Dog miss the walker that bit him, or were there just too many walkers around them?
Perhaps T-Dog was your favourite character but it was the writers that got rid of him. They can’t add too many new characters to the show without losing some of the old ones. They have to pay them and find a story and screen time for them. Why do you think that T-Dog and Lori went? The fact that the production now has to pay the actors playing Michonne, the Governor, Merle and Axel was surely part of the reason.
i'm no carol hater. I actually had no problem with her until that episode. i've rewatched the episode a couple of times myself. T-dog yells "that gate is open!" and him and carol both run towards it. T shoots zombies in front of him and turns around and shoots a couple behind him and him and carol face each other so T knew she was behind him and had his back, He runs up to the gate and starts closing it, carol runs into the red door. A lone walker comes up behind T and bites him in the back and carol comes back out of that room and screams. Even if carol was "checking the door they fled through", she left T-dog's back completely unguarded. either way you look at it, she f*cked up. T-dog can't be expected to shut the gate and shoot the zombies behind his back. This was a 2 person job, and carol should have prioritized. Why was it so important for her to run into that room to check for stuff? Closing the gate where thousands of walkers are coming through should have been first priority
and i don't know why you typed the point in your last paragraph. It actually helps my main argument which is that i hope carol is dead. She deserves it. According to you, writing her off, will help the production pay for the actors playing Michonne, the governor, merle, and axel
#133
14 November 2012 - 02:31 PM
Herchel and Beth were in the caged entranceway and would have noticed Carol screaming or running through the courtyard.
Immediately after seeing T-Dog's body the group met back up and immediately said Carol and T-Dog didn't make it. The wouldn't immediately say that if they didn't SEE that she was dead. So if she ends up alive then they dropped the ball there.
They dug a huge hole and filled it back up with dirt. They didn't leave it empty waiting to find her remains, they filled it back up and Daryl put the Cherokee Rose on it like he knew she was dead. I understand the memorial/mourning thing... but you do not dig a big hole to put dirt back in it... you just put a gravestone/marker there.
All in all, it just doesn't add up.
#134
14 November 2012 - 02:44 PM
Whether Carol is dead or alive the whole thing is extremely poorly written. She runs out of the room with the scarf then it is found next to T-Dog's body.
Herchel and Beth were in the caged entranceway and would have noticed Carol screaming or running through the courtyard.
Immediately after seeing T-Dog's body the group met back up and immediately said Carol and T-Dog didn't make it. The wouldn't immediately say that if they didn't SEE that she was dead. So if she ends up alive then they dropped the ball there.
They dug a huge hole and filled it back up with dirt. They didn't leave it empty waiting to find her remains, they filled it back up and Daryl put the Cherokee Rose on it like he knew she was dead. I understand the memorial/mourning thing... but you do not dig a big hole to put dirt back in it... you just put a gravestone/marker there.
All in all, it just doesn't add up.
If Carol is alive (which I think she is), maybe she didn't run back through the courtyard. I do agree that they should have mentioned looking for Carol a bit; it was a bit much to assume she was dead just because they found her headscarf. It would be different, if it were her shoe with part of her leg still attached...
As far as the graves go, I think they expected that they'd find her body, but when they didn't, they filled it in.
#135
14 November 2012 - 02:58 PM
i'm no carol hater. I actually had no problem with her until that episode. i've rewatched the episode a couple of times myself. T-dog yells "that gate is open!" and him and carol both run towards it. T shoots zombies in front of him and turns around and shoots a couple behind him and him and carol face each other so T knew she was behind him and had his back, He runs up to the gate and starts closing it, carol runs into the red door. A lone walker comes up behind T and bites him in the back and carol comes back out of that room and screams. Even if carol was "checking the door they fled through", she left T-dog's back completely unguarded. either way you look at it, she f*cked up. T-dog can't be expected to shut the gate and shoot the zombies behind his back. This was a 2 person job, and carol should have prioritized. Why was it so important for her to run into that room to check for stuff? Closing the gate where thousands of walkers are coming through should have been first priority
and i don't know why you typed the point in your last paragraph. It actually helps my main argument which is that i hope carol is dead. She deserves it. According to you, writing her off, will help the production pay for the actors playing Michonne, the governor, merle, and axel
My take on the scene was that Carol was trying to clear a path (by shooting the walkers).She went to the door thinking that T-Dog was coming right behind her. Once she realized that he wasn't there, she turned around to go back for him. Unfortunately, it was too late. I don't fault her that.
If every character that makes a mistake "deserves" to die, then we would have a show with no one left.
#136
14 November 2012 - 03:23 PM
My take on the scene was that Carol was trying to clear a path (by shooting the walkers).She went to the door thinking that T-Dog was coming right behind her. Once she realized that he wasn't there, she turned around to go back for him. Unfortunately, it was too late. I don't fault her that.
If every character that makes a mistake "deserves" to die, then we would have a show with no one left.
No she knew T-Dog was done as soon as she made her way through that door. There was a moment where she looked at him like thank you for giving your life for me, but damn you for the same thing.
If Carol is alive (which I think she is), maybe she didn't run back through the courtyard. I do agree that they should have mentioned looking for Carol a bit; it was a bit much to assume she was dead just because they found her headscarf. It would be different, if it were her shoe with part of her leg still attached...
As far as the graves go, I think they expected that they'd find her body, but when they didn't, they filled it in.
That doesn't make sense either. They dug the graves and filled them in the same day. Why would they IMMEDIATELY say, Carol and T-Dog didn't make it and not even remotely bother looking or wondering if Carol was still alive. They give all the evidence of an off-screen death and the only forshadowing that she is alive is the fact that it was an off-screen death. Its just bad writing whether shes dead or alive is my only point.
#137
14 November 2012 - 03:27 PM
#138
14 November 2012 - 03:30 PM
No she knew T-Dog was done as soon as she made her way through that door. There was a moment where she looked at him like thank you for giving your life for me, but damn you for the same thing.
That doesn't make sense either. They dug the graves and filled them in the same day. Why would they IMMEDIATELY say, Carol and T-Dog didn't make it and not even remotely bother looking or wondering if Carol was still alive. They give all the evidence of an off-screen death and the only forshadowing that she is alive is the fact that it was an off-screen death. Its just bad writing whether shes dead or alive is my only point.
I think it makes sense, but that doesn't mean that I am wowed by the way they handled Carol's "death". I think there needed to be a mention or two that they searched for her body.
#139
14 November 2012 - 04:30 PM
#140
14 November 2012 - 08:31 PM
My take on the scene was that Carol was trying to clear a path (by shooting the walkers).She went to the door thinking that T-Dog was coming right behind her. Once she realized that he wasn't there, she turned around to go back for him. Unfortunately, it was too late. I don't fault her that.
If every character that makes a mistake "deserves" to die, then we would have a show with no one left.
T-dog was in front of her. How could he "come in right behind her"? She didn't say a word, He doesn't have eyes on the back of her head either. I would understand if she screamed "t-dog, theres a door over here!" Even so, watching t-dog's back while closing the gate should have been first priority She saw t-dog closing the gate. She also heard him scream "the gate is open!". She'd have to be the dumbest woman in the world to have "thought t-dog was coming right behind her". Her job was to watch his back while he closed the gate. Like i said, it was an obvious 2 man job where the second man(woman) abandoned their post and left the first man's back completely open to attack. I know they had to kill off some people, but that was a real crappy explanation. Carol was never the smartest of characters but she really should have known better
#141
14 November 2012 - 09:26 PM
T-dog was in front of her. How could he "come in right behind her"? She didn't say a word, He doesn't have eyes on the back of her head either. I would understand if she screamed "t-dog, theres a door over here!" Even so, watching t-dog's back while closing the gate should have been first priority She saw t-dog closing the gate. She also heard him scream "the gate is open!". She'd have to be the dumbest woman in the world to have "thought t-dog was coming right behind her". Her job was to watch his back while he closed the gate. Like i said, it was an obvious 2 man job where the second man(woman) abandoned their post and left the first man's back completely open to attack. I know they had to kill off some people, but that was a real crappy explanation. Carol was never the smartest of characters but she really should have known better
Are you kidding? All this hate for Carol is baseless and unfounded, I bet that if Daryl was backing off T-Dog instead of Carol you would not write a post about the fact that it was Daryl's fault is T-Dog was bitten. Even if you say that Carol "was never the smartest", she was smart enough to put down 6 or 7 walkers and I don't blame her for not being able to make a carnage of 100 walkers with a single gun, they wanted to kill T-Dog off and that's the way they picked. If there's someone to blame, that's Maggie for not calling Carol and T-Dog too instead of only Lori and Carl, Carol was badass enough to stay by T-Dog's side even if Maggie, Lori and Carl rushed away and Beth and Hershel INSTANTLY closed themselves into that caged thing.
#142
14 November 2012 - 09:39 PM
If Carol is alive (which I think she is), maybe she didn't run back through the courtyard. I do agree that they should have mentioned looking for Carol a bit; it was a bit much to assume she was dead just because they found her headscarf. It would be different, if it were her shoe with part of her leg still attached...
As far as the graves go, I think they expected that they'd find her body, but when they didn't, they filled it in.
But was anyone actually shown looking for Carol, or did they make reference to having searched but not found her? I can't remember.
The grave thing was confusing, to say the least! Glenn and co spend time digging 3 graves. The person we are given every reason to assume dead had an empty grave, but the missing person (who possibly no one searched for) has her grave filled in. Only 1 out of 3 graves was presumably filled with a body.
#143
14 November 2012 - 10:06 PM
But was anyone actually shown looking for Carol, or did they make reference to having searched but not found her? I can't remember.
The grave thing was confusing, to say the least! Glenn and co spend time digging 3 graves. The person we are given every reason to assume dead had an empty grave, but the missing person (who possibly no one searched for) has her grave filled in. Only 1 out of 3 graves was presumably filled with a body.
I've watched this three times now. Here's my take on what happened.
Episode before last seems to start in the morning with Carol, Rick, T-dogg and Daryl moving vehicles. They call Glenn and Maggie to join them. They also decide to get firewood. It appears to be later that morning or early afternoon, give or take, of the same day when the walkers descend. We have the fighting, etc. etc., Lori goes into labor, and the baby is born. Daryl and Rick find T-dogg's body and Carol's headscarf (So she MUST be dead?????). When Daryl says 'They didn't make it' and then Maggie and Carl come out with the baby, it's still daylight. At most, it's the next day, but to me it seems to still be the same day. (Regardless of the crisis situation, I don't think Herschal should be able to stay up on his foot after being in bed with his lower leg amputated all night long.) Rick goes nuts, episode ends, last episode picks up right there. Daryl and Maggie go for formula, Glenn is digging a grave, and it's still daylight. It's dark when Daryl and Maggie get back, and then it's daylight again when it shows Daryl leave the flower on Carol's grave. I really think this was a 24 hour span over two episodes which leaves a huge impression with me that if they did look for Carol, they didn't do it very long or very hard. But they didn't show anything about looking for Carol other than finding the scarf, and no references were made about it, either.
#144
14 November 2012 - 11:09 PM
Are you kidding? All this hate for Carol is baseless and unfounded, I bet that if Daryl was backing off T-Dog instead of Carol you would not write a post about the fact that it was Daryl's fault is T-Dog was bitten. Even if you say that Carol "was never the smartest", she was smart enough to put down 6 or 7 walkers and I don't blame her for not being able to make a carnage of 100 walkers with a single gun, they wanted to kill T-Dog off and that's the way they picked. If there's someone to blame, that's Maggie for not calling Carol and T-Dog too instead of only Lori and Carl, Carol was badass enough to stay by T-Dog's side even if Maggie, Lori and Carl rushed away and Beth and Hershel INSTANTLY closed themselves into that caged thing.
daryl wouldn't have disappeared into a room while t-dog was closing the fence. I'll put my money on that. The fact was, she was supposed to be watching his back, and instead, she ran into a room. After he got bit, she ran back out. Rewatch the scene. You will see. It's her fault that he got bit. period. If daryl was supposed to be watching his back and ran into a room instead, you bet your f*cking ass I would say it's daryls fault that he is dead. I'm not a daryl fangirl. I can assess a situation with logic and the logical conclusion is, carol left T out to dry. Again, rewatch the scene.
#145
14 November 2012 - 11:21 PM
daryl wouldn't have disappeared into a room while t-dog was closing the fence. I'll put my money on that. The fact was, she was supposed to be watching his back, and instead, she ran into a room. After he got bit, she ran back out. Rewatch the scene. You will see. It's her fault that he got bit. period. If daryl was supposed to be watching his back and ran into a room instead, you bet your f*cking ass I would say it's daryls fault that he is dead. I'm not a daryl fangirl. I can assess a situation with logic and the logical conclusion is, carol left T out to dry. Again, rewatch the scene.
Yeah, I saw the scene and I think Carol ran into that room to check if it was safe in case they needed to escape, which they needed to do after T got bit. You're not a fangirl and I wasn't saying that you are, I said Daryl for example because everytime it comes to Carol someone has something to say about her being dumb/useless/etc. when she shot more walkers than Lori and Maggie this time so... Also, I wasn't saying that she handled the chaos perfectly but surely she didn't ran into that room wanting to leave T behind, not covering him, because she's a coward etc.
#146
14 November 2012 - 11:35 PM
Yeah, I saw the scene and I think Carol ran into that room to check if it was safe in case they needed to escape, which they needed to do after T got bit. You're not a fangirl and I wasn't saying that you are, I said Daryl for example because everytime it comes to Carol someone has something to say about her being dumb/useless/etc. when she shot more walkers than Lori and Maggie this time so... Also, I wasn't saying that she handled the chaos perfectly but surely she didn't ran into that room wanting to leave T behind, not covering him, because she's a coward etc.
Seems like you responded to my post with your already prejudice of other people judging carol. I've never had a problem with her character. I still don't. All I'm commenting on is the truth of that ONE scene. And the truth is, she randomly disappeared. Even if it was to check for an escape, she should have watched T's back until he shut the fence and then checked the room. She basically hung him out there to dry. It's a pretty far stretch to blame maggie. It would be like blaming daryl and glenn for being too far away to help or blaming rick for not killing andrew directly. or blaming oscar and axel for not killing andrew in his sleep while they were locked in together. You could make a stretch of a case for anyone to be blamed but carols scenerio directly led to T's death. In any 2 man operation, someone has to watch the front and someone has to watch the back. The person watching the back deserted her post and the person watchign the front paid for it. End of story.
#147
15 November 2012 - 03:40 AM
she runs out of a door and thats it? that cant be the end of her story, it would be poor writing in my opinion.
#148
15 November 2012 - 12:26 PM
Seems like you responded to my post with your already prejudice of other people judging carol. I've never had a problem with her character. I still don't. All I'm commenting on is the truth of that ONE scene. And the truth is, she randomly disappeared. Even if it was to check for an escape, she should have watched T's back until he shut the fence and then checked the room. She basically hung him out there to dry. It's a pretty far stretch to blame maggie. It would be like blaming daryl and glenn for being too far away to help or blaming rick for not killing andrew directly. or blaming oscar and axel for not killing andrew in his sleep while they were locked in together. You could make a stretch of a case for anyone to be blamed but carols scenerio directly led to T's death. In any 2 man operation, someone has to watch the front and someone has to watch the back. The person watching the back deserted her post and the person watchign the front paid for it. End of story.
No prejudice at all, it was not meant as an attack to you but it was a rant about people always being hateful toward Carol. She surely could have watched T-Dog's back more efficiently but still I don't feel like blaming her, with that said, obviously you're free to do it. And no, Rick and Glenn can't be blamed because they were doing other stuff and had a reason to be far away, but Maggie was pretty near to Carol and T. By the way, that's just my opinion.
#149
15 November 2012 - 01:05 PM
#150
15 November 2012 - 04:12 PM
Seems like you responded to my post with your already prejudice of other people judging carol. I've never had a problem with her character. I still don't. All I'm commenting on is the truth of that ONE scene. And the truth is, she randomly disappeared. Even if it was to check for an escape, she should have watched T's back until he shut the fence and then checked the room. She basically hung him out there to dry. It's a pretty far stretch to blame maggie. It would be like blaming daryl and glenn for being too far away to help or blaming rick for not killing andrew directly. or blaming oscar and axel for not killing andrew in his sleep while they were locked in together. You could make a stretch of a case for anyone to be blamed but carols scenerio directly led to T's death. In any 2 man operation, someone has to watch the front and someone has to watch the back. The person watching the back deserted her post and the person watchign the front paid for it. End of story.
Actually, Carol was fighting walkers. She didn't disappear. She and T-Dog got right into the thick of that, shooting walkers as they tried to get to that door to get inside the prison. T-Dog realized the gate was open and went to close it - Carol kept shooting walkers to clear a path to the door. When T-Dog is bitten and they show Carol's reaction, you can see that there are still walkers around her as well. If she hadn't kept clearing a path to the door, then she and T-Dog would both have been killed by the gate because they would have been surrounded and didn't have enough ammo.
There really wasn't anything more that any of them could do because they were caught by surprise. They had cleared that section of the prison and secured all of the gates so they felt safe. They thought Andrew was dead and were not prepared for him to open those gates and leave bloody deer meat to draw walkers inside - or for him to set the alarms off to draw more walkers. Being caught by surprise like that, they had to act quickly and didn't have time to plan any kind of strategy. There were things that they all could have done differently, but we can't really say that would change anything for the better. Different actions could have resulted in more people dying.
For Carol specifically, I think that was actually a huge improvement. When they were caught by surprise like that on the farm, Carol fell apart and was no help to any of them. This time, she fought back and took out quite a few walkers.
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