[Sweetsister]

Sorry it this has been discussed I did try and search it. I’ve watched my season 2 collection as well as season 1. Why did Shane never follow through on his threats? Did he not think Dale would tell anyone (he mentions to Lori)? Was he afraid,  he killed Otis, Randall and almost Rick? I know you would have to have a real good cover up to pull that off, but episodes near the end Shane was losing his marbles. You hear on the news all the time (unfortunately) about someone “snapping” and killing someone. In Shane’s mind he seemed to have a good case for getting rid of Dale. So was it Shane who stopped himself or they needed to save the “death” of Dale for a different dramatic impact? If done correctly it could have still been dramatic at the hands of Shane.

Edited by Sweetsister, 02 September 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[brain baker]

I think Shane knew if people kept dieing around him over and over the whole group would catch on. He could have knocked off Dale when ever he wanted. Rick needed to be done right.

Edited by brain baker, 02 September 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[Ross Periot]

Because shane wasnt a murderer? he only killed when he had to

[Serenity@sea]

Ross Periot, on 02 September 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Because shane wasnt a murderer? he only killed when he had to

And just why did he have to kill Randall?

[brain baker]

Ok let see which of these things sound more like Shane

Crazed mad man or Old man in fishermans hat
Murderer or Nice asian dude
Lunitc or Silent afican american
Wife stealer or God loving old gentleman

I rest my case.

[the Walkin Dude]

I agree with RP Shane was not a muderer, he did waht he had to do to protect the group. IMHO Randall and his crew were enemies, i can't believe Rick saved him in the first place, he would have made a great Z dinner bell while Rick's group escaped from the bar. I think that Dales slow gory death by a Z was for dramatic impact.  JMHO

[Sweetsister]

So Dale really had nothing to worry about? Shane was just making threats. I agree Shane was not a murderer to start with but once he crossed the line with Otis? my experience is limited on the subject and I admit I get information from T.V. documentaries and what I read, I heard it said over and over "he was such a nice guy how could he be a murdurer" I've also heard it said that after the first kill it gets easier Otis was a complete innocent, so other than plotwise I dont see why Shane diddnt follow through, especially as time went on if Dale just looked at him Shane seemed pissed.

[justvic77]

Otis's death I would have a little bit of trouble classifying as murder, but I do think it enabled Shane to become a murderer. In my opinion, Shane killing Otis was a last resort to save Carl. There was no crime of passion, and no premeditation. And Otis wasn't completely innocent in Shane's eyes, as him accidentally shooting Carl, put him in that situation. But once he had that done, and had rationalized it, it made it easier for him to just murder Randall, and then easier still to attempt to murder Rick. If he had been able to pull off Rick, Dale's days certainly would've been numbered.

Edited by justvic77, 03 September 2012 - 02:08 AM.

[gracie lou]

I don't think Shane saw Dale as a serious threat to him, just more of a nuance... Plus, how much time had passed between Dale and Shane's confrontation and Dale's death? A day or two?

[Thierry88]

In one episode Shane mentions to Andrea that Dale "has just a big mouth, but he is harmless". IMHO Shane saw Dale as just a nuisance because he was onto Shane and opposed his view of doing what has to be done, no matter what. But Dale couldn't pull the trigger in "Pretty much death already", so Shane did not expect Dale to be a real problem.

[brain baker]

I don't know, I feel like if Shane would have got rid of Rick it would force a move out of Dale. (And maybe Daryl too) Which in turn would force a move out of Shane. I think if it was not for Rick, Shane would have tried to take the farm by force. Which I also think as long as nobody was hurt or killed in the take over many of the group would have supported it.

[Kat]

Sweetsister, on 03 September 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

So Dale really had nothing to worry about? Shane was just making threats. I agree Shane was not a murderer to start with but once he crossed the line with Otis? my experience is limited on the subject and I admit I get information from T.V. documentaries and what I read, I heard it said over and over "he was such a nice guy how could he be a murdurer" I've also heard it said that after the first kill it gets easier Otis was a complete innocent, so other than plotwise I dont see why Shane diddnt follow through, especially as time went on if Dale just looked at him Shane seemed pissed.

I still don't think that the two situations compare.  The Otis situation was a life and death struggle.  Shane figured it was him or Otis and Otis lost.  Not to say that the decision wasn't questionable or that there were other options that he ignored, but in the heat of battle?  Even Kirkman called it justifiable homicide.  Shane had ample opportunity to take Dale out and didn't because there was no exigence there.

[justvic77]

I think the "Murder Rick" idea was the tipping point for Shane. If Shane had succeeded with Rick, Dale would've been on borrowed time. Killing Rick was in Shane's mind, a means to getting back what he wanted(Lori and control of the group), and I can see killing Dale being seen as a means to keep the control. Don't get me wrong, I really liked Bernthal's performance as Shane, and was sad to see him leave the show, but I don't think he would've stopped with just Rick. Randall's murder was just simply disposing of that loose end, and it happened to serve to show the rest of the group the 'no bite necessary' rule.

[Ross Periot]

Serenity@sea, on 02 September 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

And just why did he have to kill Randall?

if he didnt rick would have released randall....and going by randalls words he would have brought his crew to the farm. and most likley rape and kill everyone. shane saved the group there

[scarylala]

I dont think Shane was crazy I think he was just angry, frustrated & jealous and that caused him to act out. Maybe he was glad that someone knew what he'd done? He didn't need to lie to Dale because he knew there was no point & he didn't view him as a threat because he was sure he could convince everyone that Dale was imagining things or something? When someone does something big the need to brag or ease their conscience so it makes sense that he wasn't too concerned with Dale suspecting or flat out knowing

[Shane is the Man]

Serenity@sea, on 02 September 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

And just why did he have to kill Randall?

I thought this was obvious, but I'll spell it out. Because Randall tried to kill them, belonged to a group that was very dangerous, and letting him go was not an option at that point.

[Ross Periot]

Shane is the Man, on 12 September 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I thought this was obvious, but I'll spell it out. Because Randall tried to kill them, belonged to a group that was very dangerous, and letting him go was not an option at that point.

Hey when people gripe on the show and say "theyres no way everyone would be killed by zombies!"

To be honest i could see why....

[Serenity@sea]

It is really hard to debate with people who have lost all objectivity regarding a character.

These aren't opinions, these are events that happened in the show:
Shane took Randall out in the woods and murdered him.
Shane made it look like an escape and even broke his own nose to cover his lie.
Shane lured Rick out to the woods and drew his gun on him and told Rick that he was going to take his wife and son.

There was nothing altruistic about Shane killing Randall, he was a pawn in his premeditated plan to kill Rick.

[Ross Periot]

Serenity@sea, on 13 September 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

There was nothing altruistic about Shane killing Randall, he was a pawn in his premeditated plan to kill Rick.

I think you missed episodes 9,10, and 11

[Shane is the Man]

Serenity@sea, on 13 September 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:

It is really hard to debate with people who have lost all objectivity regarding a character.

These aren't opinions, these are events that happened in the show:
Shane took Randall out in the woods and murdered him.
Shane made it look like an escape and even broke his own nose to cover his lie.
Shane lured Rick out to the woods and drew his gun on him and told Rick that he was going to take his wife and son.

There was nothing altruistic about Shane killing Randall, he was a pawn in his premeditated plan to kill Rick.

I think a better way to frame it would be "it wasn't ENTIRELY altruistic". Sure, Shane had his egotistical reasons for killing Randall, but underlying all that was the fact that he viewed Randall as a threat to safety of the group, just like Rick was a threat to the safety of the group.

[Medic.]

Shane couldn't get away with killing Dale. There was no way he could have twisted it into a believable "him or me" "life or death" situation like Otis.

I don't believe Shane would have killed Otis if they'd been able to make a clean getaway from the getgo. I think Shane did kill Otis unnecessarily. (he had time to take the gun and rip his hair from Otis' hand I believe they both had time to make it.) and it was a turning point for him.

Shane clearly used Randall as a pawn. If he was merely interested in the groups safety he could have taken Randall out right in his "jail cell". He took a risk by allowing Randall to believe he was free, Randall had a better chance of escaping. To me that clearly illustrates Shane only had Shane's interest and needs at heart by taking that risk and Randall was a pawn.

[Serenity@sea]

Shane is the Man, on 15 September 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

I think a better way to frame it would be "it wasn't ENTIRELY altruistic". Sure, Shane had his egotistical reasons for killing Randall, but underlying all that was the fact that he viewed Randall as a threat to safety of the group, just like Rick was a threat to the safety of the group.

I separated that line because that is my opinion. Just as you stating that Rick was a threat to the safety of the group is your opinion.
Rick made a big mistake by bringing Randall back to the farm but a threat implies that he intentionally and willfully put the groups safety at risk.

[Creeper]

I think Shane didn't kill Dale because 1) he didn't view him as a threat and 2) whether we believe his actions to be those of a murderer or those of a group protector, I think Shane viewed HIMSELF as "just doing what has to be done to survive."  Dale didn't live long enough to get in the way of Shane's way of surviving.  If he had lived long enough, and Shane had lived long enough, I have no doubt that Shane would have taken him out.  Shane could justify anything to himself.

Shane killing Otis was a good hint towards what Shane is capable of.  He kept stressing how the old rules don't apply...well, I really think that Shane wasn't a bad or evil guy, but that he kept pushing those old rules further away which gave him greater freedom to kill whenever he thought necessary..even if the reasons were somewhat selfish(like Rick...yes, he had made some bad decisions, but ultimately, the real reason Shane wanted him dead is because Shane percieved Rick as being the only obstacle in the way of him having his own little family)

Randall WAS dangerous.  But Shane planned to kill him even before he realised how dangerous he was.  This, to me, shows the difference between Rick and Shane: Rick is unintentionally dangerous, because he makes unwise decisions that aren't based on the reality of the "new world", but he is well intentioned and retains his humanity.  Shane is dangerous because he wants to kill this person and that person to prevent some future crime/bad situation from happening, and (was) progressively losing his humanity.  This thought process will escalate, and eventually everyone will be at risk(of being knocked off) because everyone makes mistakes and bad decisions sometimes.

Edited by Creeper, 21 September 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Zombie Dragoness111]

the Walkin Dude, on 02 September 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I agree with RP Shane was not a muderer, he did waht he had to do to protect the group. IMHO Randall and his crew were enemies, i can't believe Rick saved him in the first place, he would have made a great Z dinner bell while Rick's group escaped from the bar. I think that Dales slow gory death by a Z was for dramatic impact.  JMHO

Mmmm, agreed. Although I think Shane himself struggled with it, bc he knew that his group wouldn't understand & so that he had been not ok for a while.

He didn't fool Daryl, did you see the clear 'yeah right' look he gave Shane when he was saying a few words for Otis?

I think that if Shane could have gotten away with it, giving his slipping sanity, I think he would have offed Dale. In the few eps before his deth he wasn't in a good frame of mind or a good place.

Yeah WTF about randal??? I woulda left him for Z chow... I hate how Rick is always doing the right thing all thr time... It gets on my nerves.

[AnthonyB]

Shane only really killed or thought of killing when in his mind it had to do with Rick or "his" family.