[Sweetsister]

This is kind of crazy but is there anything positive that can come from a ZA? Years down the road when they are less of a threat. I know that I personally sometimes get fed up with crowds, rude people, traffic , bills, work etc. So would starting over be a possibility. Maybe the one positive would be human extinction and the planet could rejuvenate itself. As I said I know it’s crazy who wants to live looking over their shoulder fighting “monsters” every day watching friends die. I just wonder if in the long term is there anything, anything at all positive can come from it?

[Trillian]

Sweetsister, on 08 August 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

This is kind of crazy but is there anything positive that can come from a ZA? Years down the road when they are less of a threat. I know that I personally sometimes get fed up with crowds, rude people, traffic , bills, work etc. So would starting over be a possibility. Maybe the one positive would be human extinction and the planet could rejuvenate itself. As I said I know it’s crazy who wants to live looking over their shoulder fighting “monsters” every day watching friends die. I just wonder if in the long term is there anything, anything at all positive can come from it?

It's gruesome, but assuming you can get the zombie threat down to something that human beings can live with day to day, the idea of returning to a simpler time where we grow our own crops and know our neighbors doesn't seem like such a bad thing.  

And we have to get the population of this planet under control.  I think zombies would be a step in that direction.

[Chic]

If all the zombies, or at least many, are obliterated, you can go anywhere you want with cars. You can live anywhere. Mansions, villas. You could claim your own land. Have your own private island.

[brain baker]

Free drinks at any bars you find.

[Jon W]

Sorry, hot button pressed….

I’m going to respond to this in two waves.  First, what would happen if there was a serious ‘die off’ of humans.  Second, the further implications if it was actually a ZA as shown to date in TWD.

For sake of argument, let’s assume that the die off is 90%.  Let’s further assume that the initial die off was about 50%, and then the remaining 40% died off in the aftermath (i.e. starved, died when their maintenance medication ran out, died of appendicitis, died in childbirth, died fighting for or against one or another warlord, died of an abscessed tooth…).

So, the remaining 10% have at least some skills… they can probably grow food (I don’t know about you, but I have *no clue* about growing my own food, and, even worse, how to preserve the seeds for the following year – and this is from a person whose parents had at least five acres of garden every year during my youth). They can probably hunt.

They probably are NOT educated.  Gas is gone.  “Smith” is back to being a very respectable profession.  Scavenging trips to the ruined cities are how most metal/items are found.

Infant mortality is probably extremely high (people used to not name children until their first birthday because the odds were so high they would die).  Most people will probably die around 40 or so, as a peasant.

Eventually, ‘civilization’ (as we currently think of it) would reform, but my expectation is that it would take at least 300 years.  People would look back at the “golden age” and try to recreate a personal computer….

Now, let’s throw the ZA in the mix.

Imagine the burial rites.  Imagine working in a hospital (nurses carrying shotguns?).

Sorry, I don’t think *anything* positive would come out of a ZA or any major die off.

(not trying to be nasty – if I come across that way, I do apologize).

[Jon W]

brain baker, on 08 August 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Free drinks at any bars you find.

Assuming you don't meet Rick and get shot...

[brain baker]

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Assuming you don't meet Rick and get shot...

Rick wouldn't shoot me because I wouldn't  be asking where they are staying.

I'd ask

-where's the Jager and a shot glass?
-is anyone playing pool or is this table free?
-do you think if I threw a dart into a zombies eye it would die?
-anybody got any quarters for the jukebox, because they have freebird in there.

Would I live long in a ZA? No I would not. Would I have more fun the week I did live then someone who lived to a hundred? You better believe it.

Edited by brain baker, 08 August 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[brain baker]

BTW great breakdown of a ZA and here I am think about the free drinks.

Edited by brain baker, 08 August 2012 - 03:18 PM.

[Sweetsister]

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Sorry, hot button pressed….

I’m going to respond to this in two waves.  First, what would happen if there was a serious ‘die off’ of humans.  Second, the further implications if it was actually a ZA as shown to date in TWD.

For sake of argument, let’s assume that the die off is 90%.  Let’s further assume that the initial die off was about 50%, and then the remaining 40% died off in the aftermath (i.e. starved, died when their maintenance medication ran out, died of appendicitis, died in childbirth, died fighting for or against one or another warlord, died of an abscessed tooth…).

So, the remaining 10% have at least some skills… they can probably grow food (I don’t know about you, but I have *no clue* about growing my own food, and, even worse, how to preserve the seeds for the following year – and this is from a person whose parents had at least five acres of garden every year during my youth). They can probably hunt.

They probably are NOT educated.  Gas is gone.  “Smith” is back to being a very respectable profession.  Scavenging trips to the ruined cities are how most metal/items are found.

Infant mortality is probably extremely high (people used to not name children until their first birthday because the odds were so high they would die).  Most people will probably die around 40 or so, as a peasant.

Eventually, ‘civilization’ (as we currently think of it) would reform, but my expectation is that it would take at least 300 years.  People would look back at the “golden age” and try to recreate a personal computer….

Now, let’s throw the ZA in the mix.

Imagine the burial rites.  Imagine working in a hospital (nurses carrying shotguns?).

Sorry, I don’t think *anything* positive would come out of a ZA or any major die off.

(not trying to be nasty – if I come across that way, I do apologize).

No need its cool everyone gets their opinion, I'm fine with everyones thoughts on the topic
By the way I was acctually born at home (in a small village in Portugal, not that long ago but they still used midwives)

Edited by Sweetsister, 08 August 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[d2daybreak]

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Sorry, hot button pressed….

I’m going to respond to this in two waves.  First, what would happen if there was a serious ‘die off’ of humans.  Second, the further implications if it was actually a ZA as shown to date in TWD.

For sake of argument, let’s assume that the die off is 90%.  Let’s further assume that the initial die off was about 50%, and then the remaining 40% died off in the aftermath (i.e. starved, died when their maintenance medication ran out, died of appendicitis, died in childbirth, died fighting for or against one or another warlord, died of an abscessed tooth…).

So, the remaining 10% have at least some skills… they can probably grow food (I don’t know about you, but I have *no clue* about growing my own food, and, even worse, how to preserve the seeds for the following year – and this is from a person whose parents had at least five acres of garden every year during my youth). They can probably hunt.

They probably are NOT educated.  Gas is gone.  “Smith” is back to being a very respectable profession.  Scavenging trips to the ruined cities are how most metal/items are found.

Infant mortality is probably extremely high (people used to not name children until their first birthday because the odds were so high they would die).  Most people will probably die around 40 or so, as a peasant.

Eventually, ‘civilization’ (as we currently think of it) would reform, but my expectation is that it would take at least 300 years.  People would look back at the “golden age” and try to recreate a personal computer….

Now, let’s throw the ZA in the mix.

Imagine the burial rites.  Imagine working in a hospital (nurses carrying shotguns?).

Sorry, I don’t think *anything* positive would come out of a ZA or any major die off.

(not trying to be nasty – if I come across that way, I do apologize).

As for knowing how to grow your own food and not being educated, hopefully, there are still libraries and universities with books on how to do these things. I am not saying there wouldn't be challenges. There would, but they could be overcome. The access to books is one of the reasons I feel a prison is ideal. However, I really think a tropical, or at least warm weather, island is the way to go. One with a causeway or bridge for easy, yet controllable access. As I type that, the Florida Keys sound good. I can farm and have protein in seafood. Not to mention living in paradise. It is not what I had in mind for acquiring my beachfront property, but in a ZA, it works.

As for my positive in a ZA, along with my beachfront property, I have my pick of cars.

[Jon W]

Sweetsister, on 08 August 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

No need its cool everyone gets their opinion, I'm fine with everyones thoughts on the topic
By the way I was acctually born at home (in a small village in Portugal, not that long ago but they still used midwives)

Interesting... there is a move back towards midwives.

However, I'm willing to bet if there had been 'any problems' with the birth, your mother would have been in an ambulance, on the way to this hospital VERY quickly.  It's when that option is taken away that things get really serious.

[d2daybreak]

brain baker, on 08 August 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

Free drinks at any bars you find.

For those who didn't go looking, I think there would be a huge decrease in alcoholics and addicts of any kind, and not just because the population as a whole decreased. I think the percentage of addicts would go down, mainly because of lack of supply.

[Sweetsister]

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Interesting... there is a move back towards midwives.

However, I'm willing to bet if there had been 'any problems' with the birth, your mother would have been in an ambulance, on the way to this hospital VERY quickly.  It's when that option is taken away that things get really serious.

Your probably right but they counted my fingers and toes and all was ok. The one I feel bad for is my mum, no drugs !

[Jon W]

d2daybreak, on 08 August 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

As for knowing how to grow your own food and not being educated, hopefully, there are still libraries and universities with books on how to do these things. I am not saying there wouldn't be challenges. There would, but they could be overcome. The access to books is one of the reasons I feel a prison is ideal. However, I really think a tropical, or at least warm weather, island is the way to go. One with a causeway or bridge for easy, yet controllable access. As I type that, the Florida Keys sound good. I can farm and have protein in seafood. Not to mention living in paradise. It is not what I had in mind for acquiring my beachfront property, but in a ZA, it works.

As for my positive in a ZA, along with my beachfront property, I have my pick of cars.

Sorry, everybody, I'm in a bit of a mood today, and it shows in my posting.

1.  Grow food and be educated - Libraries.  It wasn't that long ago that being able to read and write (at all) was a mark of distinction.  If we are back to 'stoop labor' for farming, having the excess capacity to be able to educate yourself (or your children) will be unusual.  I'm not disputing that people may be able to learn how to grow food from textbooks, etc. sitting around, but consider that for everybody 'reading books', there is one less person out there, growing food.

2.  The Keys.  I can foresee more than one problem:

A.  Lots of other people will have the same idea.  That means that either you'll be crowded, or you'll run out of ammo preserving the population density that you regard as ideal.

B.  Water.  Limited fresh water down there if I remember correctly (I may be totally off on this one).

C.  People will, eventually, get tired of seafood.  Even Lobster gets old when it is all you get to eat.

D.  Weather.  The Keys are fairly routinely washed over by a hurricane.  When you've got satellites and weathermen available, it is just massively inconvenient (as people drive up the various bridges).  When you don't have that early warning and may not be able to evacuate, it can become a MUCH bigger deal.

Cars.  Yep, you'll have your choice.  However, you won't have much gas to drive them around....

[Sweetsister]

I would like the population to could go  to something like the life of Native Canadians/Americans. Use the land as much as you need , no more, share with oneanother, a society based on bartering and not on $$. I would hope for a better start if possible and not the future of the Road Warrior (although its a great flick.)

On another note I would love to go places that your not allowed, Tower of London and wear the crown jewels for example

[Jon W]

d2daybreak, on 08 August 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

For those who didn't go looking, I think there would be a huge decrease in alcoholics and addicts of any kind, and not just because the population as a whole decreased. I think the percentage of addicts would go down, mainly because of lack of supply.

I would be *astonished* if this was the case.  Think about it - no more TV.  The only thing to do in the evening is drink....

Also, (for example) corn liquor is MUCH easier to transport than 'raw corn' - same for the various other grains that are used to produce alcohol.

Also, keep in mind that the water supply is not going to be as good as it is now.  One of the reasons people used to drink 'small beer' (and other 'lightly' alcoholic beverages) was because that was a lot safer than drinking the water.

There is a theory that states that brewing beer is the REASON for civilization.  Nomads could plant the various grains, but couldn't 'stay around' during the fermentation process nor could they take the vats with them - so people started settling around the breweries, which became the nucleus of cities.

Even if you make the stuff illegal, people will do what they have to get it (sorry, verging on 'decriminalize all of it again - shutting down...).

[Jon W]

Sweetsister, on 08 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

I would like the population to could go  to something like the life of Native Canadians/Americans. Use the land as much as you need , no more, share with oneanother, a society based on bartering and not on $$. I would hope for a better start if possible and not the future of the Road Warrior (although its a great flick.)

On another note I would love to go places that your not allowed, Tower of London and wear the crown jewels for example

<shakes head>  (Disclaimer - I have Cherokee blood in me, that I am proud of)  (Second disclaimer - I am trying really hard not to make personal attacks, merely to present my point of view and some facts.  If this comes across personal, I will remove the post).

Consider that the Native American tribes were *usually* at war with one another.  Consider that various tribes had "slaves" (frequently captives, and I will acknowledge that the slaves usually became part of the tribe, and their children DEFINITELY became part of the tribe).  Consider that "horse raiding" (and other types of raids) were so much a part of the culture that most teenage males could not marry until they had succeeded on a raid against another tribe.  Consider that "use the land as much as you need" would include stampeding an *entire* herd of buffalo over a cliff to get a much smaller quantity of meat than the entire herd provided.

And, frankly, barter sucks.  What happens if you have something I need, I have excess that I can trade for that something, but you do not want anything that I have excess of?  Money just puts an intermediate step in the middle... it provides a "universal" medium of exchange that (supposedly) everybody wants.

There are *many* things to admire about the Native American cultures, but the "Noble Savage" image is basically Hollywood and not backed up by historical facts.

On the other hand, wearing the Crown Jewels would be *very* cool.

[Sweetsister]

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

<shakes head>  (Disclaimer - I have Cherokee blood in me, that I am proud of)  (Second disclaimer - I am trying really hard not to make personal attacks, merely to present my point of view and some facts.  If this comes across personal, I will remove the post).

Consider that the Native American tribes were *usually* at war with one another.  Consider that various tribes had "slaves" (frequently captives, and I will acknowledge that the slaves usually became part of the tribe, and their children DEFINITELY became part of the tribe).  Consider that "horse raiding" (and other types of raids) were so much a part of the culture that most teenage males could not marry until they had succeeded on a raid against another tribe.  Consider that "use the land as much as you need" would include stampeding an *entire* herd of buffalo over a cliff to get a much smaller quantity of meat than the entire herd provided.

And, frankly, barter sucks.  What happens if you have something I need, I have excess that I can trade for that something, but you do not want anything that I have excess of?  Money just puts an intermediate step in the middle... it provides a "universal" medium of exchange that (supposedly) everybody wants.

There are *many* things to admire about the Native American cultures, but the "Noble Savage" image is basically Hollywood and not backed up by historical facts.

On the other hand, wearing the Crown Jewels would be *very* cool.

Again no worries I have no problem with others posts, if everyone agreed all the time it would be quite boring. To me an opposite oppinion on a post is ok but attack on the poster not ok, which I don't see you have done. I certainly see you are looking at all the practical things that we would encounter. Other posters myself included may just be looking for "fun" outletts in a societly with limited restrictions. However you wish to reply to the post is your opinion totally cool

[backwoodsroamer]

Sweetsister, on 08 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

I would like the population to could go  to something like the life of Native Canadians/Americans. Use the land as much as you need , no more, share with oneanother, a society based on bartering and not on $$. I would hope for a better start if possible and not the future of the Road Warrior (although its a great flick.)

On another note I would love to go places that your not allowed, Tower of London and wear the crown jewels for example

Jon W, on 08 August 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

<shakes head>  (Disclaimer - I have Cherokee blood in me, that I am proud of)  (Second disclaimer - I am trying really hard not to make personal attacks, merely to present my point of view and some facts.  If this comes across personal, I will remove the post).

Consider that the Native American tribes were *usually* at war with one another.  Consider that various tribes had "slaves" (frequently captives, and I will acknowledge that the slaves usually became part of the tribe, and their children DEFINITELY became part of the tribe).  Consider that "horse raiding" (and other types of raids) were so much a part of the culture that most teenage males could not marry until they had succeeded on a raid against another tribe.  Consider that "use the land as much as you need" would include stampeding an *entire* herd of buffalo over a cliff to get a much smaller quantity of meat than the entire herd provided.

And, frankly, barter sucks.  What happens if you have something I need, I have excess that I can trade for that something, but you do not want anything that I have excess of?  Money just puts an intermediate step in the middle... it provides a "universal" medium of exchange that (supposedly) everybody wants.

There are *many* things to admire about the Native American cultures, but the "Noble Savage" image is basically Hollywood and not backed up by historical facts.

On the other hand, wearing the Crown Jewels would be *very* cool.

Sweetsisters idea of what might happen after a destruction of civilization by zombies is not really very far off from what I believe would occur. The situation as I understand it is a reduction of living human population by some 80 to 90% by the zombies. 10-20 years later the zombies have inevitably succumbed to natural attrition or been destroyed by humans.

At this point I believe the remaining humans would be the "hardcore" to have lived. They would have to have banded together to survive this long. With the possible exception of the Cossacks who are are unique in history there has never been a "bandit society" that survived long. There is evidence that tribal societies are the foundation of civilization. At the 10-20 years A.Z. point humans would have to have developed some agricultural abilities. Scavenged food supplies would have run out. Humans would also probably be fairly sedentary. Fuel supplies would have gone bad and motorized vehicles would have deteriorated. Transportation would be by foot or water. I am uncertain as to how domestic animals would have fared. I am fairly certain 10-20 years is too short a time to breed a usable stock of horses or cattle.

Which leaves us with people living in tribal groups. Survivors would have the advantage of knowing about technology that existed pre A.Z. They would probably try to replicate as much as they could. The wheel would not have to be reinvented. You would just have to figure out how to make a new one.

The noble savage is a Hollywood invention. The notion that pre-Columbian Native Americans existed in a state of constant warfare is also false. The only Native Americans who did this were the Aztecs. The conflicts observed by European colonists were in fact caused by the Europeans themselves. The Visigoths would never have crossed the Rhine and attacked Rome if they had not been pushed out of their territory by migrating Ostrogoths who in turn were being attacked by the Huns.

When the first Europeans arrived in North America there were four main cultures. Three were fairly peaceful, non migratory groups. The five, later six, tribe Iroquois confederation dominated the Northeast. In the Southeast were the less organized Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, and Chickasaw. In the Southwest was the Pueblos, Hopi, Navajo and so on. In all three groups were smaller tribes and a smaller group of less influential tribes in the Pacific Northwest. The Great Plains were sparsely populated.

The Aztecs of modern day Mexico were in a constant state of war with neighboring tribes. Aztec religion dictated a constant stream of human sacrifices to appease their Sun God. Always seems to be a religious conflict in human history doesn't there.

All of these tribes consisted of villages based on extended family groups. Three or four family groups usually lived in a village. These villages allied to form a tribe. They were all based on agriculture supplemented by hunting and fishing. They frequently did come into conflict.  There were no clear borders. It was natural for there to be disputes. There was raiding between the tribes, but there is no archaeological evidence full scale warfare at all This type of raiding was also common in Europe at the time. The Native Americans couldn't hold a candle to the Europeans in the organized mayhem department. There was slavery, torture, and cruelty in  pre Colombian North America. This is pretty much the norm for humanity all over the world at the time. It still is to this day.

The various tribes bartered with each other. A tribe living on the sea coast would trade dried fish, sea shells to make jewelry and so on to tribes further inland for furs, venison and other items they wanted. Much of the bartering was done for what we would today call "luxury items." Baskets, pots, jewelry, furs and so on. This trade was widespread. Artifacts from as far away as Mexico have been found in archaeological digs as far east as Georgia and Alabama.

So the North American natives had formed a fairly stable society by the time the Europeans arrived.  North America was colonized by the British, French, Spanish, and Dutch. When a colony was formed they would displace on group of Native Americans who out of necessity would move into another tribes area. Remember what I said about the Goths, Romans, and Huns. The arrival of the Europeans started a never ending cycle of migration and warfare among the Native Americans. Since all four European nations who colonized North America were hostile to each other they recruited and armed tribes to be allies when their wars spilled over into the colonies.

The Europeans also introduced the horse which allowed the tribes of the Great Plains to evolve into a horse nomad society similar to the Scythians, Sarmations, Alans, Avars, Huns, and Mongols of Central Europe and Asia. This brought them into conflict with neighboring tribes.

Taking all this into account I believe that any human society formed in the years following a Zombie Apocalypse would out of necessity resemble pre-Columbian America. While the Native Americans had all the vices and failings common to humanity they were the model of a late Neolithic society. The survivors we're discussing would basically be at a late Neolithic or early Bronze Age level. They should be able to put things back together at a much faster pace than previous societies because of their access to recorded knowledge.

By the way my paternal grand father was a Cherokee who lived his entire life as a member of the Oklahoma band of the Cherokee Nation. My mother was Jewish. I consider myself to be a simple citizen of the United States with no affiliation to any group of people. All the facts from my post were learned in school or from reference material. Gotta love the "Information Age." Don't get the wearing the crown jewels thing though. Oh well, whatever floats your boat.

Edited by backwoodsroamer, 08 August 2012 - 11:22 PM.

[gagewhitney]

Not having to go to work in an office every day would be AWESOME.

[Anderlation]

It's funny this should come up. Whilst we're talking about getting through and growing crops etc. In world war z I just read  story about US government basically training white collar guys and all these executives and other high jobs like lawyers and that to do jobs like digging, building, plumbing etc. it was interesting the story as it felt very realistic as I feel that's what have to happen. Oh you were a CEO of a big company, cool story bro, now get that toilet flowing!

As far as a positive of a ZA, personally if things went ok for me and my family, I'd say solitude and a chance of a fresh start and to make stronger ties with neighbours and new friends

[backwoodsroamer]

Not having to give up cigarettes would be great. You would probably die before they had a chance to hurt you. Not smoking because there were no cigarettes would suck.

[brain baker]

backwoodsroamer, on 09 August 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

Not having to give up cigarettes would be great. You would probably die before they had a chance to hurt you. Not smoking because there were no cigarettes would suck.

But wouldn't smoking bring walkers? They'd smell it wouldn't they? So yes smoking would still kill you maybe. Just faster then ever if you did at the wrong time.

[DeadCave]

With approximately 1% of the world's population being thrown back to the days before automobiles and electricity were common place there are a LOT of positive things that could come about from a ZA
1. Nature as a whole would recover rapidly, restoring the balance that's been off kiltered since the industrial age. The world's oceans would renew itself from the lack of pollution, over-fishing, over-whaling and so on. Forests will regrow over time, (land) animal populations will restore themselves to their former numbers and range.
People can go and remember what past governments have failed at and draft new laws and consititutions to prevent the stupidity that we're experiencing today. So yeah, there's a lot of positive things that can happen.
Why else does nature cause mass extinctions or mass die-offs of various species... so that balance can be restored to the world's ecosystems.

[backwoodsroamer]

brain baker, on 09 August 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

But wouldn't smoking bring walkers? They'd smell it wouldn't they? So yes smoking would still kill you maybe. Just faster then ever if you did at the wrong time.

You could enjoy a few minutes before your time ran out.