[TheSource]

This is my first topic, so I do apologise for any mistakes I may make.
I love The Walking Dead TV Series, and have recently ordered the first volume so it's safe to say I am not the most apt for knowledge.

I am watching the first episode (Days Gone By) of TWD, in the scene of Little Girl.

Little Girl picks up her teddy bear! In her current state: the LG must have some semblance of who she once was.
Judging by the value of the teddy bear for the girl, it could be seen that the Walker instinctively picks the bear up. Similar to Morgan Jones' wife turning the door-knob.

We're forever reminded that they are indeed dead, which seemingly is irrevocably true, and are still deadly omnipotent creatures even around someone they onced loved or knew (Hershel's barn).

Going back to Little Girl: if she recognised the teddy bear, wouldn't she have recognised her parents, hypothetically?
Judging by the journey of the show, it's highly likely LG would have "eaten" her parents.
Could it be viewed that the Walkers still understand emotion, but just can't control their physical state?

[backwoodsroamer]

I wouldn't say that shows any emotion or intellect. I've seen fish and even insects pick up and carry small items. A walker would have to retain a certain "curiosity" if you will to even feed itself. We haven't seen any of them eating a carrot or rock for instance, but I wouldn't say that shows any memory or emotion.

[Major Tom]

That bit with the Teddy Bear was put in for effect but is not typical or expected zombie behavior.

Zombies have different characteristics in different zombie stories. In this and most genre fiction they are pretty well mindless with no memories of their previous life.

[Faith]

This article says they do have fragments of memory from their past.  Look at this article, underneath "Behavior."


http://walkingdead.w...om/wiki/Zombies

[ShaneAmour]

It seems a though they do have a small remnant of memory, I always hoped they would at least.

[Judari]

I think it adds to the creepy effect if they do remember some semblance. They are mindless flesh-craving machines yes, but its harder to disengage from emotions you might have from a turned love one if they do reenact some sort of normalcy. I'm thinking of how Morgan couldn't shoot his turned wife, even though she was turned she still tried opening the door to the house and never wandered too far as if she knew she belonged their with them.

[Tynerra]

Okay, this question really intrigued me and so, as the Easter Bunny went about hiding eggs for the children to find, I went about a 'zombie-mindset' hunt. Searching for answers to this question was interesting. I confined my search to information about The Walking Dead and its zombies so as not to 'contaminate' the information by crossing franchises. Several interviews with the show's creator and creative staff have established that such 'zombie movies' and franchises don't exist in the world of the comic or television show. That being the reason for all of the different terms of reference to the dead: walkers, roamers, lurkers, biters, geeks, zeds...etc.

Staying specific to this show and its world to answer this question wasn't easy as there aren't many instances I could find on the internet where the topic of walker's memories and/or sense of self were addressed directly by Kirkman, Mazarra or others on the creative staff. But I found a few things...

AMC's official twitter account  for the show states a number of 'rules' for the walkers on the show, in reference to the question at hand, notably:

Quote

Zombie Rule #5 : Zombies are not dexterous. They cannot pick up or use any items more complex than a rock or a stick.

and

Quote

Zombie Rule #8 : There is no overt recognition of people or places, there is a sense of familiarity that can dictate where a zombie moves.

So, we've seen at least one walker pick up a rock to use as a rudimentary tool in season one when Rick and the others were trapped in the department store and the walker's were at the glass doors. The walker uses the rock to try and break the glass.

Also, in season one, Morgan says that after his wife became a walker, she tends to 'return home.' Thus employing rule 8 dictating a motivation to go back to the last familiar place.

But the rules above as-well-as Jenner's information provided in season one's finale, 01-06, the most primitive areas of the brain, located toward the bottom and back portions of the brain according to his model projected on the large computer monitor - are the parts of the brain reanimated by the infection. It brings back limited motor function and the most basic of instints...the need to feed. But he clearly states that the upper frontal lobe - the part of the brain that makes you who you are...remains dormant. I take that to mean that memories wouldn't be located in an area of the brain that is reanimated.




There are arguments that can be made to the contrary (Amy's reaction to Andrea immediately upon reanimating, the little girl in the first scene picking up her dropped teddy bear) but all of these could easily fall under the rules and theory expounded above. I wonder if, when confronted with such seemingly contradictory information through scenes like the two parantheticals above, we as viewers aren't just projecting our own desires onto the events. As viewers, connected to the characters we want to believe that Amy saw Andrea and recognized her sister. But when you look back at the scene (and I have), almost as soon as she is reanimated and her eyes fully open, she drops her mouth open to 'take a bite.'

Given the little that the show runners have provided us, what the creative team has established on-line via AMC and what we've learned through exposition, I don't believe that walkers have any sense of 'self,' or cognizant memory of who they were, knew or anything else of that sort. In addressing the original poster's theory that the little girl couldn't control the infection's effect of an uncontrollable impulse to 'eat her parents,' using what we know from the above, it isn't that she can't control it...she isn't cognizant of it. She isn't the parents' little girl anymore. The mind that made her who she was is gone...what has been reanimated is the base at the stem and a portion around the lower back of the brain which is where the most basic of functions are controlled. She is basically a shell with a motor that runs solely to get more fuel to run. The teddy bear may have held a rudimentary link to motion in that she had to pick it up in order to move on...she didn't move past it and back up...she stopped when it fell and picked it up.

I'm afraid anything else is just us viewers trying to find lost humanity in the walkers.

[Razdaz]

Hi, my first post and wanted to add to this intriguing topic.

As far as I'm aware, walkers react in an inquisitive manner towards objects or people that were previously seen before they died.

- For example:

Spoiler

Sophia coming out of the barn and curiously looking at the group.

It's as if the walker had known them before but obviously, as explained in the S1 finale, that all cognitive function, memory and self-awareness are basically lost in reanimation. Only basic animalistic instinct would remain such as feeding.

- Another example is as mentioned, the little girl: She probably had it in her arms when she died, possibly knowing she would die. After reanimation, maybe the walker of the little girl saw it as a part of itself? Like the clothes they wore or where they died.

What I'm getting at is that moments, people, places, objects of interest that are memorable to someone pre-death are fragments of memory that are sparked in the brains cortex and lobes when the walker discovers them after death, such as encountering someone they knew before they died. Such as, the little girl walker and her teddy bear. Possibly a memory fragment that is preserved or triggered on events rather than the entire brains function.

Speculation, my take on the subject even though my explanation doesn't really make much sense reading it.

Edited by Razdaz, 16 April 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Trillian]

Major Tom, on 25 March 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

That bit with the Teddy Bear was put in for effect but is not typical or expected zombie behavior.

I agree.  I just watched that opening scene and while very effective, I don't think we've ever seen another zombie behave like the little girl in this opening sequence.  

Based on the behavior of other zombies, she should have turned around and gone after him as soon as he spoke to her (or even smelled or heard him even sooner), but she didn't even hear him until he had spoken to her several times.  

I think everything about the girl in this scene was intended to surprise us because like Rick, we were supposed to believe that she was still a living human being, and it's a mistake to "learn" about zombies from her behavior.

Edited by Trillian, 16 April 2012 - 01:57 AM.

[Tynerra]

I don't want to come across as argumentative, but I'm just not convinced that anything we've been shown thus far is clearly indicative that walkers have any cognizant sense of anything or anyone to the degree that we're discussing. The "walker rules" that AMC tweeted above as-well-as the information from Jenner below all seem to contradict the idea that walkers have any sense of their former selves to any extent beyond familiarity being a factor in where they roam or seem to linger.

Quote

The time-lapse MRI video demonstrates the disease attacking the brain, similar to meningitis, ultimately killing the victim. Brain activity is later restarted a few hours later, simultaneously reanimating the body to merely basic functions. Jenner explains that the brain stem reanimates anywhere from a few minutes to 8 hours after death, and adds that the humanistic traits do not return.

Jenner's Lab Comments


Jenner clearly points out as the infection reanimates TS-19 (his wife, Candace) that the frontal lobes and other areas where memories would be stored don't reanimate.

I just have a suspicion that what we are disecting here has more to do with trying to find sensible solutions in the white noise that is walker-dom. In other words, the way some people see faces or patterns in stains, in clouds (like the bagel that is supposed to look like Sister Teresa or the scorch mark on burnt toast that resembles Jesus Christ)...we are projecting our own need for humanity on to creatures that no longer possess any humanity.

[backwoodsroamer]

Tynerra, on 16 April 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

I don't want to come across as argumentative, but I'm just not convinced that anything we've been shown thus far is clearly indicative that walkers have any cognizant sense of anything or anyone to the degree that we're discussing. The "walker rules" that AMC tweeted above as-well-as the information from Jenner below all seem to contradict the idea that walkers have any sense of their former selves to any extent beyond familiarity being a factor in where they roam or seem to linger.



Jenner's Lab Comments


Jenner clearly points out as the infection reanimates TS-19 (his wife, Candace) that the frontal lobes and other areas where memories would be stored don't reanimate.

I just have a suspicion that what we are disecting here has more to do with trying to find sensible solutions in the white noise that is walker-dom. In other words, the way some people see faces or patterns in stains, in clouds (like the bagel that is supposed to look like Sister Teresa or the scorch mark on burnt toast that resembles Jesus Christ)...we are projecting our own need for humanity on to creatures that no longer possess any humanity.

Very good point, well done.

[Trillian]

Tynerra, on 16 April 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

I just have a suspicion that what we are disecting here has more to do with trying to find sensible solutions in the white noise that is walker-dom. In other words, the way some people see faces or patterns in stains, in clouds (like the bagel that is supposed to look like Sister Teresa or the scorch mark on burnt toast that resembles Jesus Christ)...we are projecting our own need for humanity on to creatures that no longer possess any humanity.

Well said.  We are just hoping for humanity where there is none left.  When you do this to animals, it's anthropomorphism.  What would it be called when you project humanity on a zombie?

[That Guy]

Trillian, on 16 April 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well said.  We are just hoping for humanity where there is none left.  When you do this to animals, it's anthropomorphism.  What would it be called when you project humanity on a zombie?

Zombopomorphism?

[DominusPisces]

Trillian, on 16 April 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well said.  We are just hoping for humanity where there is none left.  When you do this to animals, it's anthropomorphism.  What would it be called when you project humanity on a zombie?

Necromorphism?

[Major Tom]

Tynerra, on 16 April 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

I don't want to come across as argumentative, but I'm just not convinced that anything we've been shown thus far is clearly indicative that walkers have any cognizant sense of anything or anyone to the degree that we're discussing. The "walker rules" that AMC tweeted above as-well-as the information from Jenner below all seem to contradict the idea that walkers have any sense of their former selves to any extent beyond familiarity being a factor in where they roam or seem to linger.



Jenner's Lab Comments


Jenner clearly points out as the infection reanimates TS-19 (his wife, Candace) that the frontal lobes and other areas where memories would be stored don't reanimate.

I just have a suspicion that what we are disecting here has more to do with trying to find sensible solutions in the white noise that is walker-dom. In other words, the way some people see faces or patterns in stains, in clouds (like the bagel that is supposed to look like Sister Teresa or the scorch mark on burnt toast that resembles Jesus Christ)...we are projecting our own need for humanity on to creatures that no longer possess any humanity.

Outstanding post Tynerra. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

I have found from hanging around here and reading a lot of zombie lore, that a good percentage of people want to talk about the show but as you have observed they want the zombies to behave the way they want them to behave.

Morgan's wife approached the door and I think she tried to turn the doorknob. There is no denying this it is an observable fact. On the other hand her expression was blank to me and signified nothing. To others her expression signified memory, sadness, confusion and emotion. Jesus Christ on burnt toast as you so aptly put it.

To a certain percentage of people it will always be Jesus on that toast and Sophia will always recognize her mother.

Often the people who believe that way have other strong beliefs that are faith based. They believe in ghosts ufo abductions, big foot and other products of fertile imaginations. It is harmless and it's all good, I guess,

[Jon W]

Familiarity makes perfect sense for me.  It explains both Morgan's wife returning, and the little girl getting her teddy bear - they were 'familiar'.  If Morgan's wife had cleaned up the yard, or the little girl had picked up a drink cup, that would be different... but both were only performing habitual actions.

[Tynerra]

Major Tom, on 02 May 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Outstanding post Tynerra. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.

I have found from hanging around here and reading a lot of zombie lore, that a good percentage of people want to talk about the show but as you have observed they want the zombies to behave the way they want them to behave.

Morgan's wife approached the door and I think she tried to turn the doorknob. There is no denying this it is an observable fact. On the other hand her expression was blank to me and signified nothing. To others her expression signified memory, sadness, confusion and emotion. Jesus Christ on burnt toast as you so aptly put it.

To a certain percentage of people it will always be Jesus on that toast and Sophia will always recognize her mother.

Often the people who believe that way have other strong beliefs that are faith based. They believe in ghosts ufo abductions, big foot and other products of fertile imaginations. It is harmless and it's all good, I guess,

Thanks for the compliment, Major Tom! I agree that it is all good and harmless. It's how each individual chooses to enjoy the show from their own perspective. I, in particular, don't see how the 'facts' and 'evidence' we've been shown and exposed to on the show indisputably add up to any cognizant sense of 'self' or memory...but if others 'see' that, what's the harm? Especially if it enhances their enjoyment of the show.

Jon W, on 02 May 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

Familiarity makes perfect sense for me.  It explains both Morgan's wife returning, and the little girl getting her teddy bear - they were 'familiar'.  If Morgan's wife had cleaned up the yard, or the little girl had picked up a drink cup, that would be different... but both were only performing habitual actions.

Exactly. The little girl is particularly poignant to me. She's carrying the teddy bear, then she drops it and immediately stops in her tracks. She picks it up and begins moving again. To my eye and reckoning, the object isn't as much a sentimental attachment as an association with locomotion or the motivation to move. Just as Morgan's wife had some  vague association with the house and thus was motivated to return there. The turning of the knob is a similar association. It is a motivating factor in where she goes and the actions she makes...but not necessarily evidence of 'remembering' or 'reminiscing' about the life that she led before dying and reanimating.

[Barry Cade]

Great posts Tynerra; I think I may just have exhausted my +1s. I agree with you, locomotion and feeding are the only two - I was going to type motivations there - driving forces for zombies. I just hold that the teddy-bear pickup was solely the reason of effectus dramaticus, a problem that effects not only zombies but all the creatives in Hollywood...

[backwoodsroamer]

Barry may be out, but I've got a +1 for you. As I said before, Well Done!

Edited by backwoodsroamer, 04 May 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[DeadCave]

Excellent topic, great discussion, wonderful theories.
Good fodder for (my) novel.

I agree that we are projecting human characteristics on to something that isn't "human" any longer. As mentioned, we do it to animals, thus naturally we'd do it to the zombies that we've been watching. Try as they might the actors that portray the zombies cannot wholly eliminate human traits of their behavior/acting. I don't think they're supposed to anyway.
It's one of the things that is supposed to make zombies so terrifying. It looks human, it looks like our great aunt Tessie but it's just a mindless animal seeking food. Evident by attraction to sound, and movement and smell.
Based on previous posts here in this thread, I'll toss in the hypothesis of the little girl and the teddy bear is that she might have just reanimated. Jenner said reanimation may take anywhere between 3 minutes to 8 hours. It's possible that Rick happened upon that gas station 7 or 8 hours after the girl had been bitten and she just then "woke up" or reanimated and thus may-have been disoriented. Same goes for Amy, just now waking up in Andrea's arms, getting her bearings and now ready to take a bite.
The walkers that Rick found in Atlanta all milling around in that side-street until he came around the corner on the horse, they were just standing there, no particular place to go. The street I think, looking carefully was blocked off by vehicles or concrete barriers, they went into "dumb mode". Standing around because the direction they were walking was blocked until the noise of the horse's hooves and it's neighing got their attention. "Lunch time!!" got them all moving again.
I imagine that if Morgan's wife had seen any of them, she would turn from a shambling slow moving zombie to a ravenous raving beast and won't stop until it's sated it's hunger.
We are intelligent, reasoning creatures... ok, MOST of us are, given the FAIL videos that tend to show up regularly on the net. But we're also highly emotional creatures as well, so we'll see what we want to see and also mentioned previously want to find some kind of humanity in the walking dead.

[GirlsDeadMonster]

I would call it residual knowledge. I believe they have some left over mannerisms that could be seen as memory of who they were but then the base instict to feed will kick in and they run after you. I think it lends to the suspense when Rick seems to want to reason with them but knows he can't.

[WalkerBaitress]

Wow--all of you posted such insightful, heavy-duty posts on human nature and the will to project our own longings for finding humanity in the inhuman so well! This one from Major Tom struck a chord with me especially:

Major Tom, on 02 May 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Morgan's wife approached the door and I think she tried to turn the doorknob. There is no denying this it is an observable fact. On the other hand her expression was blank to me and signified nothing. To others her expression signified memory, sadness, confusion and emotion. Jesus Christ on burnt toast as you so aptly put it.

My reaction to seeing Morgan's wife trying at the doorknob was initially pragmatic. I was thinking that perhaps she was able to sense (via the sounds or smells within the house) that living human beings (aka FOOD) were inside the house, and she was determined, in her clumsy, neo-zombie way, to get to that food.

When she showed up later, in the emotionally wrenching scene where Morgan is trying to muster up the fortitude to shoot down who once was the mother of his child, but simply can't, my first thought was, "She almost looks normal." Yes, the actress was wearing some "zombie" makeup that made her eyes look sunken and her overall appearance disheveled; but she wasn't the snarling, menacing spectre of a stereotypical zombie that I would have expected in a zombie flick. In fact, she almost looked innocent--childlike, as if she'd just been born, and her mind was a blank slate. As Tom said above, her expression was a blank one. Almost that of a newborn's. Infantile, as if she's being re-born in a macabre sort of way as one of the newly undead.

I had the same reaction upon seeing Shane reanimate. In that penultimate S2 episode, he lumbers toward Rick and Carl almost like a one-year-old who's just learning to walk for the first time. I found that brief moment of Shane's "zombification" to be heartening and heartbreaking. He was being re-born as one of the dead--and when you're first born, you don't remember a thing of what happened before you exited the birth canal.

Sorry, I hope I'm not coming off as some sort of a phony by waxing on this shizz. A couple of glasses of Cabernet will do that to a woman posting on the Internets.

[Mary Mayhem]

It's hard to say... but during Jenner's example of what happens to the brain when you turn, you apparently lose everything that makes you 'you'. So I don't think so.

But at the same time, there may still be a little bit of the 'person' part of them left... then there's the possibility that some people are more deeply affected than others, maybe some less.