[Babs Bladdyblah]

In the world that they are living in... I'd say it take a village to raise a child.

[DrHouse2]

NewJeffCT, on 20 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Why is it only Lori's responsibility to watch Carl?  Last I checked, there were two parents in the family, so it should be up to both parents to watch Carl and enforce upon him that he needs to stay in, or near, the house at all times.  Before Farmageddon the other day, there were maybe a dozen adults around - Rick, Hershel, Lori, Carol, Patricia, Andrea, Beth, Jimmy, Glen, Daryl and T-Dog.  (I'm probably forgetting one or two others, not to mention Shane & Dale) - But, when Rick is leaving to go wherever, can't he also say, "Hey Trish, can you help watch my son while I'm gone?"

Maybe I leave in some weird alternative universe, but I know a ton of fathers that take a lot of responsibility when it comes to raising their children, including many who are doing more of the childcare than their wives.  So, I don't see why it is solely Lori's fault every time Carl runs off somewhere.

Really? So Rick has to protect the whole group AND keep Carl in check? Lori is supposed to be a housewife, it's not like she was some lawyer like Andrea before the ZA. Her job was to do housework and take care of the kid while the father was at work, that hasn't changed. That's why it's Lori's fault Carl runs off everywhere, Rick is doing what he's supposed to be doing but she isn't doing what she's supposed to be doing.

That's how I know people around here are going crazy, they're defending Lori.

[Operational Security]

NewJeffCT, on 20 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Why is it only Lori's responsibility to watch Carl?  Last I checked, there were two parents in the family, so it should be up to both parents to watch Carl and enforce upon him that he needs to stay in, or near, the house at all times.  Before Farmageddon the other day, there were maybe a dozen adults around - Rick, Hershel, Lori, Carol, Patricia, Andrea, Beth, Jimmy, Glen, Daryl and T-Dog.  (I'm probably forgetting one or two others, not to mention Shane & Dale) - But, when Rick is leaving to go wherever, can't he also say, "Hey Trish, can you help watch my son while I'm gone?"

Maybe I leave in some weird alternative universe, but I know a ton of fathers that take a lot of responsibility when it comes to raising their children, including many who are doing more of the childcare than their wives.  So, I don't see why it is solely Lori's fault every time Carl runs off somewhere.

Because typically Rick is off  shooting rapists and plunderer's  *tony & dave*, or saving someones a$$ *Hershel* or getting rid of threats *Randall*  or fighting off a former friend who wants to kill him *shane* or burning a barn full of walkers.  Ya know he's a pretty busy guy and one would think Lori should be able to handle the kid.  



Now we have Daryl, Carol,  Rick, Andrea, Lori, Carl, Tdog, Hershel, Maggie, Beth, Glenn and Michonne.  Next season somebody (s)  has to die they all can't live forever. Beth and Lori are the lowest ones on my totem pole if you think something is wrong with that then so be it...I regret nothing

[Operational Security]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

That's how I know people around here are going crazy, they're defending Lori.

I don't get it either Lori has no redeeming qualities ( that I can think of) how can people like her after what she did to Rick in the finale. Not to mention her actions throughout the entire season it freakin' blows my mind that people are now jumping on the I love Lori bandwagon  (for lack of a better term) grrrrr I just don't get it

[DrHouse2]

Nareen, on 20 March 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

This is a great thread Babs, and your analysis was right on the mark, as have been some of the others.  This is not about men versus women but why women are held to a higher standard than men.

I have long thought that a lot of the drivel spouted on this board is straight from “The Misogynist’s Handbook”, but as was said above a lot of the population here seems to be rather immature comic fanboys who may not actually know a lot about women.  However, a few of the worst offenders seem to be women, seemingly because they have deep crushes on one or another of the male characters. Not you Babs, you are one of the ones who could see past your liking for Shane.

It is true that the women characters are written inconsistently and just badly at times.  But there is another issue here:  this series is not supposed to be about badass zombie killers but about a group of survivors. Such a group will always consist of all sorts of people, some who can fight and some who need protection.  I bet it would never enter Rick‘s  or Daryl’s heads to ditch Carol, because she is a human being  and part of the group, doing the best she can.  So are they all and they all care about each other, even if they don’t always get along.  If I (for example) was there and tried to kill Carol they would shoot me. What it comes right down to is that Carol is not a badass zombie killer and so some think she is a waste of space on this show.  Plus she gets to ride on Daryl’s bike.

There are a few posters on this board who are or have been police officers, soldiers or something else along those lines, who have actual experience of traumatic situations.  They have received lots of training about how to act and how to react, and sometimes such people still suffer from PTSD etc. None of the rest of us truly knows how we would react in an apocalypse. (Well I do, I would panic and be killed in the first wave).  Killing zombies on your computer screen or playing paintball wouldn’t equip you to survive any more than their previous lives equipped Lori or Carol.   Only a few of the characters have training or experience in life-threatening situations; Shane did and he lost his mind anyway.  Carol is still standing after much more profound losses.   Who is tougher and braver?

Once again I will repeat:  Lori did not ask Rick to kill Shane, she was putting him on his guard and rightly so.  She told him that Shane was dangerous, that he thought that Lori and Carl belonged to him and that he had killed for them, just as Rick had.  Do you really think that Rick is that stupid?  That easily manipulated?  As always, he listened to what Lori had to say and then did his own thing.  He had to see for himself that Shane would try to kill him before he acted.  Shane made his own choices.  What happened when Rick told Lori about Shane’s death is another story.  

I find it very offensive when people here say SoAndSo must die or Carol deserved to be beaten by Ed, but I don’t usually say anything because if you are going to go on a message board for something like TWD, you are inevitably going to see a lot of juvenile, unthinking, and misogynist nonsense.  That is offset by the truly interesting, thoughtful and mature posts made by quite a number of posters in this thread and on the board in general.  

Can we drop this whole women being held in a higher regard than men thing? Even if it's true, it doesn't apply in this case. People get on Lori because the net result of her contributions to the group are negative, meaning she's put more people in danger than she's helped. Same goes for Carol, Andrea almost died trying to save her and for all they know she is dead. No one gets on Andrea's case very much, because she's proven her worth. Or Maggie, she may not be taking down walkers but at least she's not putting lives at danger either. It has nothing to do with them being women and everything to do with them not being useful at all. Shane's case was gotten on all the time, you forget that conveniently? People talked shit left and right about Rick being a pussy and not a good leader, when he changed it was all forgotten. As was the case with Andrea, she used to be all whiny and annoying but now she's badass and is one of my favorite characters.

Lori said and I paraphrase "You killed the living to protect what's yours? Shane thinks I'm his". If that means anything to you other than what it means to EVERYBODY else, you're deluding yourself. Everyone that wants a female character to die is now written off as a misogynist, even though wanting Lori and Carol gone has nothing to do with the fact they're women. If T-Dog starts doing really dumb shit like Lori and Carol, people will be asking for him to die too. Given the nature of some on this forum, people will probably just play the race card.

[DrHouse2]

Operational Security, on 20 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I don't get it either Lori has no redeeming qualities ( that I can think of) how can people like her after what she did to Rick in the finale. Not to mention her actions throughout the entire season it freakin' blows my mind that people are now jumping on the I love Lori bandwagon  (for lack of a better term) grrrrr I just don't get it

It's because this thread has turned into "Male Vs Female", people wont defend Lori anywhere else but here to support their team.

[Maka523]

NewJeffCT, on 20 March 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Why is it only Lori's responsibility to watch Carl?  Last I checked, there were two parents in the family, so it should be up to both parents to watch Carl and enforce upon him that he needs to stay in, or near, the house at all times.  Before Farmageddon the other day, there were maybe a dozen adults around - Rick, Hershel, Lori, Carol, Patricia, Andrea, Beth, Jimmy, Glen, Daryl and T-Dog.  (I'm probably forgetting one or two others, not to mention Shane & Dale) - But, when Rick is leaving to go wherever, can't he also say, "Hey Trish, can you help watch my son while I'm gone?"

Maybe I leave in some weird alternative universe, but I know a ton of fathers that take a lot of responsibility when it comes to raising their children, including many who are doing more of the childcare than their wives.  So, I don't see why it is solely Lori's fault every time Carl runs off somewhere.

Well, Lori did kind of take it upon herself to be some kind of post apocalyptic housewife.  You'd think looking after the kid would be part and parcel of that duty.

Interestingly, when there are other people who are explicitly keeping track of Carl, he doesn't get into nearly as much trouble.  Lori may very well just be the worst parent of the year.

[daenerys]

It's not so much that I want Lori dead because of her actions, it's more that I just want her off my TV screen so I don't have to watch her dramatics any more.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Again... can we please kill off all the people who do dumb stuff?? I'm sure you guys don't know anyone who has ever done dumb stuff before. I am sure if your ever in the ZA and your best friend does something dumb, or your sister does something dumb, you will want her dead too.

I am not defending Lori's mistakes... I am saying I don't want her dead because of her mistakes. Simple as that. These are regular women.. not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They're not warriors. They are normal, everyday women who were thrust into a screwed up situation. Stick a gun in their hands and teach them a few things... don't kill them.

And yes, people are supposed to die, but do they deserve to die??? Its a very Big difference.

[NewJeffCT]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Really? So Rick has to protect the whole group AND keep Carl in check? Lori is supposed to be a housewife, it's not like she was some lawyer like Andrea before the ZA. Her job was to do housework and take care of the kid while the father was at work, that hasn't changed. That's why it's Lori's fault Carl runs off everywhere, Rick is doing what he's supposed to be doing but she isn't doing what she's supposed to be doing.

That's how I know people around here are going crazy, they're defending Lori.

Rick had Shane and Dale to help him, as well as Daryl, T-Dog, Andrea and Glen for protecting the group.  (Not to mention, Jimmy, Maggie & Hershel).  Until Rick announced his Rick-tatorship at the end of the last episode, it was not Rick's sole responsibility to protect the group.

And, shouldn't Rick spend some time being a father to Carl - you know, tell him to stay close to the house, or in it?  Tell him to help his mother out (or Hershel or anybody else that sticks close to the house?)  Especially after Sophia wandered off & met a tragic end.

[zombiejoe]

People have a right to there own opinion. My opinion is the women on the show are annoying and i want to see some of them killed off.
That's my opinion.

[jenna2008]

I have to put my two cents in here lol, especially since I have practically become a Lori and Carol hater almost overnight.


I was never too crazy about Lori, but I did try to understand her. I even tried to defend her actions when she slept with Shane (I actually blamed Shane 100% there cuz he never told Lori that Rick was still alive in the hospital when he left him) because truth is, since Rick got back, she seemed to be doing everything in her power to prove that she was by his side. Shit, I even defended her actions when she attacked Andrea about helping around the house. Being a working mom with 2 kids (and not living in a ZA lol) has me pulling my hair at times thinking that I need help with housework. So I thought 'damn, I can understand her frustration at having to clean up after everyone'.

But then some things started bothering me...like the fact that she has 1 child that she can't seem to keep track of. Ok, seriously, is Carl some kind of stealth ninja child who can come and go as he pleases?

What really got to me though, was when Rick told her what happened between him and Shane and she freaking loses it. And I honestly do not think it had anything to do with Carl, cuz Rick had already pointed out that Shane HAD TURNED. Shane turning into a walker meant 1 thing; Rick's life or Shane's 'death'.So her reaction (IMO) was totally unjustified...again all this is just my opinion.

Now onto Carol....this part will be a lot smaller lol. I actually liked Carol (love Melissa McBride!) but can't help wondering why she doesn't do anything. She seems to just 'be there', taking herself out of any decision making (Randall, anyone?) and all the while showing animosity to the only person who had done everything in his power to help her.

Like I have stated before, I don't blame the actresses or even the characters (HUGE comic fan here), I blame the writers. They don't seem to have any clue what a 'normal' woman is like. Women can be strong but sensitive, they do not have to be either one or the other.

[DrHouse2]

NewJeffCT, on 20 March 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Rick had Shane and Dale to help him, as well as Daryl, T-Dog, Andrea and Glen for protecting the group.  (Not to mention, Jimmy, Maggie & Hershel).  Until Rick announced his Rick-tatorship at the end of the last episode, it was not Rick's sole responsibility to protect the group.

And, shouldn't Rick spend some time being a father to Carl - you know, tell him to stay close to the house, or in it?  Tell him to help his mother out (or Hershel or anybody else that sticks close to the house?)  Especially after Sophia wandered off & met a tragic end.

It wasn't his sole responsibility but he was the one doing most of the work. All Lori has to do all day is be a housewife and look after the kid, I'm not even sure what she's doing when Carl is just running off everywhere.

Rick has had plenty father-son talks with Carl, Lori is slacking.

[etphoto]

I'll answer the OP's question as, the two most hated characters just happen to be female.  Simple as that.  Its funny, because I never looked at it as a women bashing issue until this thread.  I guess some people always look for a slight when there are certain sexes or races that are involved.

[zombiejoe]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

Again... can we please kill off all the people who do dumb stuff?? I'm sure you guys don't know anyone who has ever done dumb stuff before. I am sure if your ever in the ZA and your best friend does something dumb, or your sister does something dumb, you will want her dead too.

I am not defending Lori's mistakes... I am saying I don't want her dead because of her mistakes. Simple as that. These are regular women.. not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They're not warriors. They are normal, everyday women who were thrust into a screwed up situation. Stick a gun in their hands and teach them a few things... don't kill them.

And yes, people are supposed to die, but do they deserve to die??? Its a very Big difference.

You do know this is a tv show, right? We want the people ON THE TV SHOW to die. Why do you make it sound like people are bad for wanting fake characters to get killed?

[Double Tap]

I wanted Shane dead more than anyone else in the show. He's a MUUUUUCCCCCHHHH bigger scum bag than Lori. That being said I still want Lori to die for almost killing her own husband by feeding Shane, and then crying about it when she found out Shane died. I laughed when Shane died. Can't believe anyone would like his character. It's unbelievable how much of a scumbag he was.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

etphoto, on 20 March 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

I'll answer the OP's question as, the two most hated characters just happen to be female.  Simple as that.  Its funny, because I never looked at it as a women bashing issue until this thread.  I guess some people always look for a slight when there are certain sexes or races that are involved.

Go reread. I included myself in this gender bias. And had Shane not trained Andrea, she would have been included as well.


Jenna - Your gripes are legitimate. When Lori had the conversation with Rick about Shane, I saw red for a week. And you are right about the writers, cause it ultimately falls in their hands. And I expected the usual Lori hate because that last scene you couldn't really tell where she was coming from.  People are always entitled to their favorites and to hate who they want. And as much as I've been irritated by Lori lately, I still can't honestly say that she deserves to die. I couldn't even say it about Shane, and he was begging for it. And poor Carol, to be truthful, the girl is probably gonna end up dying anyway cause her skills are lacking, but I certainly wouldn't say she was deserving.

The writers definitely need to get in touch with the woman psyche.

[Dead Reckoning]

I think many of the comments about wanting certain people on the show dead were from kids or teens, or people who lack self-control.  Really, you can get into the show and feel all kinds of things for each of the characters, some i have ran the gamut of feelings about, both good and bad.   BUT this is a show, it would be boring if all the characters were ex-navy seals or bad ass ninjas.  Common, the characters represent all kinds of people, even the best of the lot have flaws, even serious flaws.  Nobody reading these forums would be acting like a Rambo if the Z apocalypse were to really happen, despite all their fantasies to the contrary.  Lori pisses me off sometimes, but she is a good character, she livens things up a bit for the show, as does carol, as did Shane, as will Merle later in the show.  We need them all for this show to be fun.  Yes Lori pissed me off, but hey, look what stress she is under, and Lori doesn't have great social skills, so i just cut her some slack and enjoy the mess she makes sometimes.  It makes the show FUN.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Double Tap, on 20 March 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

I wanted Shane dead more than anyone else in the show. He's a MUUUUUCCCCCHHHH bigger scum bag than Lori. That being said I still want Lori to die for almost killing her own husband by feeding Shane, and then crying about it when she found out Shane died. I laughed when Shane died. Can't believe anyone would like his character. It's unbelievable how much of a scumbag he was.

*facepalm*

Shane was awesome!

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Dead Reckoning, on 20 March 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

I think many of the comments about wanting certain people on the show dead were from kids or teens, or people who lack self-control.  Really, you can get into the show and feel all kinds of things for each of the characters, some i have ran the gamut of feelings about, both good and bad.   BUT this is a show, it would be boring if all the characters were ex-navy seals or bad ass ninjas.  Common, the characters represent all kinds of people, even the best of the lot have flaws, even serious flaws.  Nobody reading these forums would be acting like a Rambo if the Z apocalypse were to really happen, despite all their fantasies to the contrary.  Lori pisses me off sometimes, but she is a good character, she livens things up a bit for the show, as does carol, as did Shane, as will Merle later in the show.  We need them all for this show to be fun.  Yes Lori pissed me off, but hey, look what stress she is under, and Lori doesn't have great social skills, so i just cut her some slack and enjoy the mess she makes sometimes.  It makes the show FUN.

Excellent post. I'm all out of +1's but you deserve it!

[zombiejoe]

[Whatever

Edited by zombiejoe, 20 March 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[Dead Reckoning]

Thanks you Thank you <<bows> lol...anyway, you comments are what got me thinking.  You made some good points, much appreciated.  I liked shane, i thought he was correct about alot of things.  His approach lacked merit is all, and his slipping down into insanity didnt help him, BUT he was a fun ride.  I just wish he had more than a few stumbles as a Z...he could have done alot better job moaning and flailing around.

[zombiejoe]

jenna2008, on 20 March 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

I have to put my two cents in here lol, especially since I have practically become a Lori and Carol hater almost overnight.


I was never too crazy about Lori, but I did try to understand her. I even tried to defend her actions when she slept with Shane (I actually blamed Shane 100% there cuz he never told Lori that Rick was still alive in the hospital when he left him)

Whatever. yeah blame the man, not the unfaithful wife.

[Double Tap]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

*facepalm*

Shane was awesome!

Shane was a pussy and a selfish prick.

I can't understand how you could like a guy that would try to rape his best friend's wife, kill his best friend, feed a man that just saved his life to zombies, and stop searching for a girl that needed to be found? Talk about scum....

Edited by Double Tap, 20 March 2012 - 10:31 PM.

[Gingerbeard]

I think its the fact that the show lacks a strong female character. If you think about it, we have Maggie who relies on Glen, Carol who relies on Daryl, and Lori who relies on Rick. The only characte with any sense of independence is Andrea, who I just find unlikeable for some reason in the TV show. The comic version of her wasn't much better though. The show has given the men chances to redeem themselves which makes them easier to forgive. Take Shane for example, I hated him at the end of season 1 for trying to rape Lori like a crazy man (Note that I really liked Rick at the end of season 1, and didn't realize the absolute dreadfulness of Lori Grimes until Season 2) but, Shane redeemed himself by being a very interesting character in the second season and although the things he did weren't exactly in good moral standings, he grew on me so much that he eventually became my favorite character. Then you look at a character like Lori, who continuously does things that just makes you face palm yourself and never does anything to redeem herself. She just continues to dig herself a hole, and at this point I don't think there is much chance of her ever coming out of it.

I think with the introduction of Michonne in Season 3 we will have our first really strong female character, and although she will most likely do things fans won't like (Like every character) we will be able to forgive her because she will be an actual asset to the group.