[Babs Bladdyblah]

What is this phenomenon where everyone can forgive the men in the group for almost anything but not the women? I can honestly say that thru all of Shane's "darkness", I never wanted him to die. Not even in that last episode (even though he was asking for it). But all this Lori and Carol hate has been crazy! Especially with Lori. Yes, she should have talked to Shane earlier... yes, the conversation she had with Rick about Shane sounded bad... yes, she attacked Andrea's decision about wanting to protect the group... But not once have I wanted her dead. Some of the same people who want her dead, are the same people who forgave Shane for everything he did. Lori is making mistakes, just like they all are. Rick has made many mistakes too, especially in his judgements of what is right for the group, but no one wants him dead. Don't get me wrong either, Lori has pissed me off aplenty, but death? Really? No way.

And just so I'm completely honest, I tend to be more judgemental of the women as well, the only difference is, I get annoyed with the characters but I don't want them to die. I also tend to be more forgiving of the male characters for their mistakes, actions and such.

Again, I really don't understand why this is. Is it because men are naturally known "screw ups" and we expect them to be, so we tend to let the male characters slide? Are we setting higher standards for the women on this show? (And I am not saying these are the facts.. just questions) I just can't figure this out.

[Ironmangray]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Is it because men are naturally known "screw ups" and we expect them to be, so we tend to let the male characters slide?

Yes.  Yes it is.

[PeopleAreFood]

I agree with you.  These are regular people from all walks of life struggling with major things.  Most people don't always handle situations like these correctly nevermind while under the stress they are under.  Carl is 12 on this show and if she tells him to go to his room, it should be expected.  He keeps wandering off.  Carol just lost her daughter a few weeks ago (She watched Rick blow her brains out all over the front lawn).  Many people who deal with something like that can even become catatonic or turn into a real life zombie.  I think the characters are pretty realistic, MUCH different than 99% of other shows or zombie movies.

[Stan]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

.Is it because men are naturally known "screw ups" and we expect them to be, so we tend to let the male characters slide? Are we setting higher standards for the women on this show? (And I am not saying these are the facts.. just questions) I just can't figure this out.

When a dog pees on a hydrant, it's not being civilly disobedient...it's just being a dog. That's how it is. Guys are just guys.

Women, on the other hand, are intelligent, capable of learning, being self-aware and reasoning, developing tools, and have also developed methods of verbal, non-verbal, and (swear to God it seems like it) psychic communication with one another.

As a higher and more evolved lifeform, the burden of responsible behavior falls to them.

That having been said-I'm gonna chase my kids around the yard and make 'Pew pew' noises with a Jedi Starfighter.

[ElloraDixon]

I could answer that, but then I would start a hell of a mess here and most people are not ready to discuss it anyway.


I just say that I do like the women on the show and judge them as much as judge the men. Aside of Shane, that was crazy anyway and I never liked him.

People hate Carol? Fine, look at your own mom and your grandma and tell them they are useless and would leave them behind to save yourself. And your little cousins. Go on.

[DrHouse2]

Men are naturally known screw ups? The only reason men seem to screw up more is because they're put in position to screw up more.

One of the only time Andrea was called into duty, she almost killed Daryl. Lori is responsible for the wedge that was driven in between Rick and Shane, that is a monumental screw up. Rick and Shane may have screwed up, but never to the point that Lori has done. Carol kinda does nothing for the group and now that there is no housework to be done, she's completely useless. That's why people want Lori and Carol dead.

[TeamRick]

I forgive the men on the show so easily because they are the only ones killing walkers (most of the time) and protecting the women.  The women on this show just cook and clean.

[Serenity@sea]

Yes, I agree with you Babs (thats why I gave the +1) I think most of my problem is when people say so and so deserved to die. Human beings being fallible is what makes this show interesting to me. It's like every time someone makes a mistake, they deserve to die? We would just have a show about zombies roaming the earth fighting over scraps of dog meat. Not my cup of tea. LOL

Back to your point about the women, I read several posts about Maggie breaking down after they left the farm. Like...... "I thought she was a bad ass, What happened to her?" She just lost her home, she didn't know if her family was alive.  Give the girl a moment, please!


And yes, I get that they have to adapt to survive. But human beings in a ZA are going to have moments when they just loose it and hopefully, move on.

I've been thinking more of the campfire scene where it seemed that everyone turned on Rick. Jesus, they had just been through hell, they haven't processed Dale's death and then Rick tells them about Jenner's secret and Shane's death. If that isn't PTSD, I don't know what is. It would be normal to react in strange ways. Ya know what I mean?

Edited by Serenity@sea, 20 March 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[DrHouse2]

Serenity@sea, on 20 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I've been thinking more of the campfire scene where it seemed that everyone turned on Rick. Jesus, they had just been through hell, they haven't processed Dale's death and then Rick tells them about Jenner's secret and Shane's death. If that isn't PTSD, I don't know what is. It would be normal to react in strange ways. Ya know what I mean?

Only the women turned on Rick, namely Carol and Maggie. Funny because Maggie completely froze earlier in the episode when faced with danger and I can't recall Carol ever putting down a walker.

[lastman2012]

Misogyny in a comic book story written by men? Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
<h1 id="query_h1" class="query_h1"></h1>

[Babs Bladdyblah]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Men are naturally known screw ups? The only reason men seem to screw up more is because they're put in position to screw up more.

One of the only time Andrea was called into duty, she almost killed Daryl. Lori is responsible for the wedge that was driven in between Rick and Shane, that is a monumental screw up. Rick and Shane may have screwed up, but never to the point that Lori has done. Carol kinda does nothing for the group and now that there is no housework to be done, she's completely useless. That's why people want Lori and Carol dead.

Does Shane take no responsibilities in the wedge?

Lori has screwed up way more than Rick and Shane? Do you really believe that? Maybe more than Rick, but Shane?

So Carol is completely useless? Is she not trainable?

And I don't necessarily believe that men are naturally known screw ups. It wasn't meant to offend. But I have heard people make that claim before so I had to ponder it.

[Kat]

I honestly think a lot of it has to do with the writing (which is really  my major pet peeve with the show).  The male characters on the show are much more nuanced, complicated, and developed.  

We really don't know Lori -- and what we have seen, we no like.  She's jumpy, unlikeable, and inconsistent, because she's written as jumpy, unlikeable, and inconsistent.  I keep going back to the "Inside the Walking Dead" recaps.  I have counted several instances where the motivations that the actors are assigning to their characters are completely inconsistent with what the showrunners say.  That's just bad planning.

Carol is a more difficult case because, unlike Lori who has done things we really don't like, she really hasn't done ANYTHING.  I was actually thinking about this when people were complaining about Jimmy and Patricia being killed because they didn't care about them.  Frankly, I'm not sure I care about Carol.  She is, of course, sympathetic, but at the end of the day her demise wouldn't be terribly notable or noticeable.  

I really think when Darabont left, there was a clear lack of direction and pace to the show and the season/characters suffered for it (I just have a mental image of the writers sitting around in a room saying "I don't know, what do you want to do?).  Then once the "Darabont influence" faded there was a push to pack everything in and character development was what got left on the cutting room floor.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Serenity@sea, on 20 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

Yes, I agree with you Babs (thats why I gave the +1) I think most of my problem is when people say so and so deserved to die. Human beings being fallible is what makes this show interesting to me. It's like every time someone makes a mistake, they deserve to die? We would just have a show about zombies roaming the earth fighting over scraps of dog meat. Not my cup of tea. LOL

Back to your point about the women, I read several posts about Maggie breaking down after they left the farm. Like...... "I thought she was a bad ass, What happened to her?" She just lost her home, she didn't know if her family was alive.  Give the girl a moment, please!


And yes, I get that they have to adapt to survive. But human beings in a ZA are going to have moments when they just loose it and hopefully, move on.

I've been thinking more of the campfire scene where it seemed that everyone turned on Rick. Jesus, they had just been through hell, they haven't processed Dale's death and then Rick tells them about Jenner's secret and Shane's death. If that isn't PTSD, I don't know what is. It would be normal to react in strange ways. Ya know what I mean?

Serenity - Yes. And what you said about death especially. We might as well kill them all off now cause they are all bound to piss someone off at some point.

[Serenity@sea]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Only the women turned on Rick, namely Carol and Maggie. Funny because Maggie completely froze earlier in the episode when faced with danger and I can't recall Carol ever putting down a walker.

If thats what you needed to point out about my post then you completely missed my point. This is not an arguement over what the women do over the men. It is about holding the men accountable for their actions as much for the women.
And I seemed to recall Glen wasnt jumping on the Rictatorship band wagon, BTW.

[DrHouse2]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Does Shane take no responsibilities in the wedge?

Lori has screwed up way more than Rick and Shane? Do you really believe that? Maybe more than Rick, but Shane?

So Carol is completely useless? Is she not trainable?

And I don't necessarily believe that men are naturally known screw ups. It wasn't meant to offend. But I have heard people make that claim before so I had to ponder it.

Shane certainly has some responsibility, but Lori was the bigger piece of the pie. She also acted as though she had nothing to do with it, which is even worse. She played him so he would keep her safe, then Rick comes back and she kicks Shane to the curb.

What was Shane's worse screw up? Lori's screw up led to Shane being dead and Dale being dead, if she had kept her eye on Carl then Dale would never have got torn apart by the walker.

They have enough people currently trained, they don't need any more because they don't have enough ammo to accommodate.

I bet these people happened to be women right?

[DrHouse2]

Serenity@sea, on 20 March 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

If thats what you needed to point out about my post then you completely missed my point. This is not an arguement over what the women do over the men. It is about holding the men accountable for their actions as much for the women.
And I seemed to recall Glen wasnt jumping on the Rictatorship band wagon, BTW.

You said "everyone" turned on Rick, I'm just saying that only Carol and Maggie did.

[lastman2012]

This is tv. I think of it being a production where time and budget is not equal to the talent that produces it. I honestly think that given the needed resources, there wouldn't be so many characters getting short shrift on the show.


At the end of the day, it is what it is.

Edited by lastman2012, 20 March 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[Maka523]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Men are naturally known screw ups? The only reason men seem to screw up more is because they're put in position to screw up more.

One of the only time Andrea was called into duty, she almost killed Daryl. Lori is responsible for the wedge that was driven in between Rick and Shane, that is a monumental screw up. Rick and Shane may have screwed up, but never to the point that Lori has done. Carol kinda does nothing for the group and now that there is no housework to be done, she's completely useless. That's why people want Lori and Carol dead.

I think that first bit was a joke.  _{I hope.}

Andrea almost killed Daryl, yes.  And the second time she was called into duty, she helped hold off a wave of walkers from reaching the inhabitants of the farm.  And then she stopped a walkerfied Annette from eating Glenn's face with a well placed scythe (who Daryl, of all people, failed to kill, apparently the shotgun pellets ricocheted off her cheekbone or something).  I'd say that makes her more than even.  And that's not even counting the stuff she's done after E10.

Oh, dear lord, I think I'm going to defend Lori a little bit, pleasegodhelpme.  Lori may be selfish, bossy, a little narcissistic, have the emotional sensitivity of a fruitbat and the general consistency of a drunk in a clown car, but if FUBARing the relationship between Rick and Shane is her greatest sin, then I think we could possibly chalk that up to as much her being an emotional wreck as through malice or stupidity.  And if we're going to begin critiquing character's decisions based on their emotional stability (or lack thereof) then we're probably going to be here for a long time.

As for Carol, I'm still pissed that she left one of my personal favorite characters to die, but the woman was abused for much of her life.  (The only thing I don't understand is the lengths the others go to rescue her.  It's cold, I suppose, but in the zombie apocalypse I'd argue it's a reasonable question.)

[DrHouse2]

Maka523, on 20 March 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

I think that first bit was a joke.  _{I hope.}

Andrea almost killed Daryl, yes.  And the second time she was called into duty, she helped hold off a wave of walkers from reaching the inhabitants of the farm.  And then she stopped a walkerfied Annette from eating Glenn's face with a well placed scythe (who Daryl, of all people, failed to kill, apparently the shotgun pellets ricocheted off her cheekbone or something).  I'd say that makes her more than even.  And that's not even counting the stuff she's done after E10.

Oh, dear lord, I think I'm going to defend Lori a little bit, pleasegodhelpme.  Lori may be selfish, bossy, a little narcissistic, have the emotional sensitivity of a fruitbat and the general consistency of a drunk in a clown car, but if FUBARing the relationship between Rick and Shane is her greatest sin, then I think we could possibly chalk that up to as much her being an emotional wreck as through malice or stupidity.  And if we're going to begin critiquing character's decisions based on their emotional stability (or lack thereof) then we're probably going to be here for a long time.

As for Carol, I'm still pissed that she left one of my personal favorite characters to die, but the woman was abused for much of her life.  (The only thing I don't understand is the lengths the others go to rescue her.  It's cold, I suppose, but in the zombie apocalypse I'd argue it's a reasonable question.)

When only talking about this group of survivors? No it isn't a joke.

Andrea has done her bit, but it's not like she's done anything that wouldn't have been done otherwise. They would have taken down the barn walkers without her, they would have got Annette before she ate Beth. Andrea just so happens to be my favorite female character so I don't want to be too tough on her, but the only reason she didn't screw up and kill Daryl is because she screwed up her screw up.

The way she kicked Shane to the curb, there was only one result at the end of that.

I'm sure everyone feels sorry for Carol because of her whole life before the ZA then after aswell, but she still doesn't do much.

[Serenity@sea]

DrHouse2, on 20 March 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

You said "everyone" turned on Rick, I'm just saying that only Carol and Maggie did.

What about Glen? Since you want to point out I said "everyone". I'd like to point out that Glen is not a woman .Since you said only the women did.

Edited by Serenity@sea, 20 March 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[DrHouse2]

Serenity@sea, on 20 March 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

What about Glen? Since you want to point out I said "everyone". I'd like to point out that Glen is not a woman .Since you said only the women did.

Glenn didn't turn against Rick while by the campfire, only Carol and Maggie did. Then Daryl and Herschel told them to stop being stupid.

[TigerSingh]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

What is this phenomenon where everyone can forgive the men in the group for almost anything but not the women? I can honestly say that thru all of Shane's "darkness", I never wanted him to die. Not even in that last episode (even though he was asking for it). But all this Lori and Carol hate has been crazy! Especially with Lori. Yes, she should have talked to Shane earlier... yes, the conversation she had with Rick about Shane sounded bad... yes, she attacked Andrea's decision about wanting to protect the group... But not once have I wanted her dead. Some of the same people who want her dead, are the same people who forgave Shane for everything he did. Lori is making mistakes, just like they all are. Rick has made many mistakes too, especially in his judgements of what is right for the group, but no one wants him dead. Don't get me wrong either, Lori has pissed me off aplenty, but death? Really? No way.

And just so I'm completely honest, I tend to be more judgemental of the women as well, the only difference is, I get annoyed with the characters but I don't want them to die. I also tend to be more forgiving of the male characters for their mistakes, actions and such.

Again, I really don't understand why this is. Is it because men are naturally known "screw ups" and we expect them to be, so we tend to let the male characters slide? Are we setting higher standards for the women on this show? (And I am not saying these are the facts.. just questions) I just can't figure this out.

I havent been on this forum long enough to notice if women get the hate treatment to be killed more than the men but as a man i like all the characters and never wanted them to be killed .I always wanted them to make it somehow..Lori can be annoying but its understandable within a zombie apocalypse.Ive never blamed her for going with Shane as she didnt know that Rick was alive and needed some sort of security in a world gone mad.And it was obvious that Shane also cared alot for her son so no wonder she went with him .Carol is a tortured soul even before the ZA and  i hope gets more character development because it will give more flavour to the story.Andrea ive always liked and now she's changing into one of the best characters on the show and I think personally she stole the show more than anyone else in the final....

[Judari]

Serenity@sea, on 20 March 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

If thats what you needed to point out about my post then you completely missed my point. This is not an arguement over what the women do over the men. It is about holding the men accountable for their actions as much for the women.
And I seemed to recall Glen wasnt jumping on the Rictatorship band wagon, BTW.

I get what DrHouse2 was getting at though. I think its easier to forgive the men because they are actively going things to protect the group, yeah they may make the wrong call or screw up but they are putting their asses on the line consistently. The women, save for Andrea, aren't. In fact they are even internalizing their own stereotypes by insisting the women should be doing the housework and leaving the men to do the hardwork which in ZA is completely impractical. All Lori and Carol have done has been to bitch, complain and do stupid shit (more Lori than Carol when it comes to stupid shit). I understand that ZA is unbelievably mentally trying on a person but its not more trying on the women than the men (lol just look at how Shane went bonkers) so I personally feel like okay, if you aren't going to do anything practical for survival then you need to sit down, shut your mouth and not get into to trouble.

Glen wasn't going against Rick's leadership abilities he was complaining that they weren't told about the virus, that aside he was all for Rick, always has been. It was Maggie and Carol who wanted a new leader.




ETA: At the end of the day its a zombie show so, characters are gonna die, I just think people would rather one they see as not so useful than one who is.

Edited by Judari, 20 March 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Again, Lori has said some stupid things, but this "I hope she dies mentality" is ridiculous. And trust me when I say that when Lori had that talk with Rick, it pissed me off to no end!!!! But I don't want the girl dead. Same with Carol, I mean Daryl should pull her to the side and tell her what Shane told Carl, I ain't gonna be here to protect you forever, let me show you how to do it...

Have the women done soooo much wrong that it should be punishable by death? Hell no.

[DrHouse2]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Again, Lori has said some stupid things, but this "I hope she dies mentality" is ridiculous. And trust me when I say that when Lori had that talk with Rick, it pissed me off to no end!!!! But I don't want the girl dead. Same with Carol, I mean Daryl should pull her to the side and tell her what Shane told Carl, I ain't gonna be here to protect you forever, let me show you how to do it...

Have the women done soooo much wrong that it should be punishable by death? Hell no.

Lori got Shane killed, her inability to watch over Carl got Dale killed. The fact that she's the cause of 2 major, helpful character death is a pretty big deal. They're 2 men weaker now, 2 men that are 10X more capable of protecting the camp than she is.

Carol is a burden, protecting her because she can't protect herself puts others at risk of death.

It isn't about what they've done, it's about what they can't do.