[Maka523]

Quote

If a zombie apocalypse were to occur, would you expect most of them to act like Andrea, or more like Lori and Carol?

So many months into the ZA?  Maggie, at the very least.

Hell, Glenn's no fighter, but when there's fighting that needs doing he's in the trenches with the best of them.

Sure, it may be "realistic" to have characters who can't handle themselves when the Zs are battering at the gates.  Only it's not "realistic" at all.  Because people like Carol, who won't even bother to learn how to defend themselves against even a single Zack?  They won't be survivors, they'd either be Zs themselves, or food.  If you have a middle aged woman who is still alive this long into the ZA, then odds are better that she's at least like Lori, able to defend herself when the chips are down, than like Carol, who can do nothing but panic, lose her mind, and put other people in danger.

The Carols of the world would be food for Zs unless they are very, very lucky, as Carol is.  And her "luck" is actually the efforts of other, stronger people.  And that won't hold out forever.

You say Carol making like a doormat in "Triggerfinger" is a sign of strength.  I wholeheartedly disagree.  I think there are few implications more unfortunate than admiring a woman for letting a man verbally abuse her, or even egging him on.  Frankly, that scene made me sick, seeing how passive she was.

Edited by Maka523, 26 March 2012 - 05:27 AM.

[Flight815]

Maka523, on 26 March 2012 - 05:23 AM, said:

You say Carol making like a doormat in "Triggerfinger" is a sign of strength.  I wholeheartedly disagree.  I think there are few implications more unfortunate than admiring a woman for letting a man verbally abuse her, or even egging him on.  Frankly, that scene made me sick, seeing how passive she was.

I definitely see where you're coming from. However, the reason I think that scene shows she's a strong character is because she understands that Daryl deals with grief differently than she does, and she's allowing him to vent his grief/anger at her. Yes, she was passive. But if she had argued back or reacted at all, that would have only been giving him what he wanted. She was strong enough to not react at all.

[Maka523]

Flight815, on 27 March 2012 - 02:18 AM, said:

I definitely see where you're coming from. However, the reason I think that scene shows she's a strong character is because she understands that Daryl deals with grief differently than she does, and she's allowing him to vent his grief/anger at her. Yes, she was passive. But if she had argued back or reacted at all, that would have only been giving him what he wanted. She was strong enough to not react at all.

I, well, still disagree.  There's letting a grieving individual vent, as I have heard some describe that scene and there's letting a grieving individual verbally abuse you and call you a "dumb bitch".  And the line between the two really isn't all that fine at all.

A woman who is actually strong, like Andrea and, well, at that point in time, Andrea, would have found a way to absolve Daryl for his self-imagined "failure" with 100% less verbal abuse.  Doing nothing is not strength.  These weren't petty playground insults we're talking about.

And yeah, the opposite?  Where a pissed off/grieving woman is whaling on a the big manly Action Hero and he lets her?  I hate that as well.

[backwoodsroamer]

Maka523, on 27 March 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

I, well, still disagree.  There's letting a grieving individual vent, as I have heard some describe that scene and there's letting a grieving individual verbally abuse you and call you a "dumb bitch".  And the line between the two really isn't all that fine at all.

A woman who is actually strong, like Andrea and, well, at that point in time, Andrea, would have found a way to absolve Daryl for his self-imagined "failure" with 100% less verbal abuse.  Doing nothing is not strength.  These weren't petty playground insults we're talking about.

And yeah, the opposite?  Where a pissed off/grieving woman is whaling on a the big manly Action Hero and he lets her?  I hate that as well.

Perhaps she should have shot him to get his attention, after all he didn't seem upset when Andrea pegged him with Dale's Ruger.

Edited by backwoodsroamer, 27 March 2012 - 03:15 AM.

[ShaneAmour]

Very good question, I'm just not sure about the answer. One would hope a woman who has been through the abuse she suffered from her husband, the loss of a child and the demolition of society due to a ZA would have become strengthened mentally and physically. It seems more like all of the stress is causing or has caused her to have a nervous breakdown-- acting indecisively, quiet, withdrawn and a little paranoid. Having a nervous breakdown is probably what would happen to many people in her shoes.

[Serenity@sea]

One thing that doesn't get talked about much, which is the most heinous act of all, is that it was alleged that Ed was molesting Sophia. I really want to watch that episode again. Either Carol knew that he was thinking about it or whether he already had, I am unclear on. That, to me would cause irreparable damage to a mother. Even if  a mother thought she had done everything possible to prevent such an atrocious crime to her child, the guilt would have to be so deep, I can't even imagine.

Edited by Serenity@sea, 29 March 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[DDixonGirl]

Serenity@sea, on 29 March 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

One thing that doesn't get talked about much, which is the most heinous act of all, is that it was alleged that Ed was molesting Sophia. I really want to watch that episode again. Either Carol knew that he was thinking about it or whether he already had, I am unclear on. That, to me would cause irreparable damage to a mother. Even if  a mother thought she had done everything possible to prevent such an atrocious crime to her child, the guilt would have to be so deep, I can't even imagine.

I'm really glad you brought this up, because that is something that doesn't sit well with me...

I went back and watched the epi where they are at the church and listened to Carol's prayer, and it just made me mad...sick & mad... This is a mother who knew her husband had twisted thoughts about her child, but stayed!!

Carol knew that Ed was looking at her daughter in a dirty way, but did nothing... Yes, I mean she did nothing.. .She stayed....Yes, she made sure that Ed wasn't alone with Sophia, but please....

It's one thing for her to put herself in danger, but to take the chance with Sophia that way....

Keeping Sophia from being alone with Ed was not protecting her kid....because she knew what he could do to her....to me Carol didn't do anything to protect Sophia....

I'm sure that Carol feels a lot of guilt, but GMAB....She is still doing what she did in her life before the ZA....Nothing..

It just made me dislike her even more.... Carol sat back, did nothing, putting her kid at risk....

She took a beating from Ed and stayed..

She knew that Ed was a major threat to Sophia, but she stayed...

It's just like now... The world went to crap, the dead are walking, the living want to kill them for what they have, but she does nothing & expects others to do it for her..

Maybe, Carol feels she failed Sophia, failed herself, and is still failing, but make a choice..because she did fail in that aspect....

You either live or die...no in between...and too me, Carol is in between...  Carol seems to like being the victim....She needs a protector, someone to take care of her, and refuses to protect, defend, or take care of herself...probably why she stayed with Ed...

IDK.... I guess some could say that I'm being hard on Carol, but I don't have a reason to be otherwise.... Rewatching the shows just cements my feelings for her....listening to her prayer in the church made me want Lori to slap her....I feel no sympathy for someone who does nothing...

I feel bad for Sophia....but not Carol.....not anymore..

Her attitude with Daryl about Randall was a joke... Her trying to cause tension btw Rick/Daryl, her telling Rick to do something, when she has never done anything..

The character is a mess....JMO and they can't fix her... too late...

[Serenity@sea]

DDixonGirl, on 29 March 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I'm really glad you brought this up, because that is something that doesn't sit well with me...

I went back and watched the epi where they are at the church and listened to Carol's prayer, and it just made me mad...sick & mad... This is a mother who knew her husband had twisted thoughts about her child, but stayed!!

Carol knew that Ed was looking at her daughter in a dirty way, but did nothing... Yes, I mean she did nothing.. .She stayed....Yes, she made sure that Ed wasn't alone with Sophia, but please....

It's one thing for her to put herself in danger, but to take the chance with Sophia that way....

Keeping Sophia from being alone with Ed was not protecting her kid....because she knew what he could do to her....to me Carol didn't do anything to protect Sophia....

I'm sure that Carol feels a lot of guilt, but GMAB....She is still doing what she did in her life before the ZA....Nothing..

It just made me dislike her even more.... Carol sat back, did nothing, putting her kid at risk....

She took a beating from Ed and stayed..

She knew that Ed was a major threat to Sophia, but she stayed...

It's just like now... The world went to crap, the dead are walking, the living want to kill them for what they have, but she does nothing & expects others to do it for her..

Maybe, Carol feels she failed Sophia, failed herself, and is still failing, but make a choice..because she did fail in that aspect....

You either live or die...no in between...and too me, Carol is in between...  Carol seems to like being the victim....She needs a protector, someone to take care of her, and refuses to protect, defend, or take care of herself...probably why she stayed with Ed...

IDK.... I guess some could say that I'm being hard on Carol, but I don't have a reason to be otherwise.... Rewatching the shows just cements my feelings for her....listening to her prayer in the church made me want Lori to slap her....I feel no sympathy for someone who does nothing...

I feel bad for Sophia....but not Carol.....not anymore..

Her attitude with Daryl about Randall was a joke... Her trying to cause tension btw Rick/Daryl, her telling Rick to do something, when she has never done anything..

The character is a mess....JMO and they can't fix her... too late...

The lack of empathy here is astounding. It seems you know nothing about battered woman syndrome. I also wonder if you are privy to some Carol backstory that we don't know about? How do you know she didn't do anything about it? What if she realized it after the ZA started. There isn't  child protective services anymore. There isn't a lot of options out there for a woman and child. Maybe she thought she was safer within the group.

I brought this up in my previous post to point out how emotionally damaged this woman is and you use it to spew out more hatred for her. I'm sorry if I sound harsh towards you, but saying you want Lori to slap a battered woman is offensive to me.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

Serenity@sea, on 29 March 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

The lack of empathy here is astounding. It seems you know nothing about battered woman syndrome. I also wonder if you are privy to some Carol backstory that we don't know about? How do you know she didn't do anything about it? What if she realized it after the ZA started. There isn't  child protective services anymore. There isn't a lot of options out there for a woman and child. Maybe she thought she was safer within the group.

I brought this up in my previous post to point out how emotionally damaged this woman is and you use it to spew out more hatred for her. I'm sorry if I sound harsh towards you, but saying you want Lori to slap a battered woman is offensive to me.

Serenity - I'm with you!

The thing is.. the whole scenario was only hinted at, so we really don't have much to go on. I can tell you from personal experience.. that fear can do alot of things to a person. I don't know much about sexual abuse, but physical abuse can break a person. The good thing is.... when it's over, the people I know never got themselves in that situation again. Any sign of abuse, and it was over. But I can't say the same for every one. The sexual abuse situation kinda floored me. The only reason I can even think of as to why they threw it in there was to accentuate how bad Ed really was. Or how submissive Carol was. But then again, Carol didn't let Sophia stay, so we don't know the whole situation. My thing is, she shouldn't be blamed because we don't even know what the real situation was and furthermore, I couldn't even begin to tell you how abused Carol really was. Whose to say that if the ZA never even happened she wouldn't have shanked him in his sleep. Cause honestly he deserved it. I don't see how anyone can blame Carol when she was the victim and Ed was the abuser.

Sure, go on and call her weak for not leaving, but don't blame her. She's not the one doing anything wrong.

[DDixonGirl]

Serenity@sea, on 29 March 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

The lack of empathy here is astounding. It seems you know nothing about battered woman syndrome. I also wonder if you are privy to some Carol backstory that we don't know about? How do you know she didn't do anything about it? What if she realized it after the ZA started. There isn't  child protective services anymore. There isn't a lot of options out there for a woman and child. Maybe she thought she was safer within the group.

I brought this up in my previous post to point out how emotionally damaged this woman is and you use it to spew out more hatred for her. I'm sorry if I sound harsh towards you, but saying you want Lori to slap a battered woman is offensive to me.

For starters, I know quite a bit about battered womans syndrome... I grew up in a violent home... My mother was beaten on a daily basis & I have every bone in my body broken before I was 12..... My father physically, emotionally, & sexually abused me for years....  it took years for me to overcome what he did....

As far as Carol's backstory... we know that she was an abused woman... We know that Ed was looking at Sophia in a vile way, because Carol said so in her prayer... we know she did nothing..

I have sympathy, empathy, understanding for abused woman... even fictional ones, but what I don't sympathize or empathize or understand is those who use that as an excuse to do nothing..

Carol on TWD is that kind of woman and that is what I see... Maybe, it's not what you see, but it's what I see... We all have the right to have different opinions on this..

Carol is weak, pathetic, and refused to do nothing..

My father beat my mother down to nothing and it made me sick, sad, and determined not to be like her, but eventually my mother made me proud... She finally stood up for herself, for me, and left the SOB..started a life...stood up for herself...

I get you are a Carol fan.... I am not...that should be okay, but I guess it isn't..

I see nothing in the character to feel sorry for any longer.... Yes, she is abused... Yes, her kid is dead.... Yes, she is probably suffered from BWS, grief, etc....but come on...

It's time for her to either step up or step out....because she can't be the victim anymore......not the way the world is on the show..

I'm sorry, but this issue hits way to close to home for me.....and I do take this personally....

I see Carol in a bad light and the writing continues to make it that way for me...and that is JMO..

I felt really sorry for her in the beginning, but after Sophia ran off, that started to change...and my dislike of the character continues to grow.. .Especially with the last episode...

How do you explain her chasing after Daryl, mothering him, spending every second worried about Daryl, but not looking for her own kid????  Hell, she stayed with a man who she knew had sick thoughts about her kid....that is crap..

How do they explain Carol watching the others learn to shot, learn to defend themselves, Beth & Patricia including, but not participating...knowing that she must do this or she could die????

All I have to say is this..

Unlike some, I do respect others opinions....even though I disagree.....but it seems that if you don't like Carol and you have a negative opinion of her, then you get bashed to high heaven.,..whatever...

I hated Andrea at the start, but have grown to like her... Why, because she is finally becoming a productive member of the group... She watched her sister get bit, she shot her in the head, she wanted to commit suicide, but she got past that and is now a productive member of the group...

Carol is stuck in victim mode with no sign of wanting to change... Sure, she found her voice.....She gets an attitude with people, she wants Rick to do something, but she does nothing.... When Carol picks up a gun and lears to shot it, when she wants to defend herself...my opinion may very well change, but until then, she's a waste of airtime for me....and I'm speaking for me... not anyone else..

I'm not saying Carol should have become a badass like Andrea, but she should at least, by now defend herself...and she won't.....Not that she can't... she won't...,and that is why I don't like her....

[Babs Bladdyblah]

I'll give you the defend herself thing, but we just don't know enuff back story to make any real assumptions about Carol. I would love nothing more than to see her learn how to protect herself in Season 3. I am willing to give her the opportunity.

And I understand that it is tough for someone who has been thru that. I am sure you have your reasons for feeling the way you do. But as someone who knows what its like to be physically abused, I can honestly say, that maybe Carol hasn't found her groove yet. But I know she will cause she took it out on Eds head when he died. So I know that she's got some pent up anger somewhere. She just needs to release it.

[Serenity@sea]

@DDixon girl

I'm very sorry I got personal and I'm very sorry for what you lived through.  I now understand where your anger is coming from. You said yourself that it took your mom awhile to overcome her abuse. Well, that is where Carol is now. I agree that she cannot remain a victim forever. I, too, hope she can grow and be a strong women.

Edited by Serenity@sea, 30 March 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[Dorkneetah]

Honestly I am liking Carol on TV more than the comics. There was just something about Carol in the comics I couldn't get behind, something about her didn't allow me to connect. I think they will expand on Carol shortly in the TV series, a little more on her and the suffering she faced with her daughter's death.

[General Ian Zane]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 19 March 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

From the life experiences that I've seen, wouldn't Carol be tough as nails by now? Usually, when you learn to take a beating... you learn to give a beating (this could be physically or emotionally). With an abusive husband, and now, with the death of Sophia... I would think Carol would be somewhat hardened, however, she's still coming off as needy and helpless. Every now and then, I'll think she's strong enough that she hasn't completely lost it yet... and she had a lot more reason to lose it than Shane did, but I dunno. I really hope they build more on her character because her present self doesn't mesh.

Maybe she is showing the kind of passivity and negative predictions often seen in anxious people with low self esteem:

Traits of Abused Women according to the Interwebz Authoritay

Edited by General Ian Zane, 30 March 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[Nareen]

DDixonGirl, I am truly very sorry for what happened to you and your mother.  Such things are heinous.

I understand now where what looked like irrational, obsessive hatred of Carol comes from:  you are looking at her though a lens of anger formed by your experiences.  

It was Daryl who took notice of Carol when he saw her pickaxe dead Ed and it was he who “pursued” her, so to speak.  When walker Sophia was discovered, Daryl tried to be there for Carol but she pushed him away.  Then he pushed her away.  As she recovered a bit, I think Carol was grateful to Daryl and was trying to look out for him; eventually she and Dale between them brought Daryl back into the group that he thought was broken. She links him to the group even now.

Also, these characters are rather old-fashioned and for a woman to pick up a gun and fight would probably surprise them more than the converse.

I hope that they will develop the character more fully next season and we will see her make some progress towards recovery.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

General Ian Zane, on 30 March 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Maybe she is showing the kind of passivity and negative predictions often seen in anxious people with low self esteem:

Traits of Abused Women according to the Interwebz Authoritay

Thank you. Informative read.

[Goat]

General Ian Zane, on 30 March 2012 - 05:54 PM, said:

Maybe she is showing the kind of passivity and negative predictions often seen in anxious people with low self esteem:

I have to say that I, personally, don't expect Carol to be a "strong" character.  The subject of battered women is tragic and probably a little deeper than I want to delve on a zombie forum, but I will say that quite a lot of people who end up in abusive relationships do indeed possess low self-esteem and feel rather helpless without some misguided notion that they have someone to "protect" them.  I honestly think that Carol is about as strong as one might expect -- if she fully fit the stereotypical profile, she'd already be latched onto Daryl about ten times harder than she already is.  Given what background we know, though, I don't really expect her to ever be a zombie-punking take-no-prisoners type.  Though it would be an interesting progression, and certainly a logical one for someone who finally realizes their self-worth.  I think she's likely discovering that at present.

Also, though, I kinda think she's gonna be walker bait, soon.  I was expecting her to go pretty quickly after Sophia, to be honest.