[Creeper]

Yeah, I would love for Daryl to encourage Carol to defend herself in his gruff way, but also in a way that doesn't make her feel like a piece of crap.  Show her he is concerned about her, that he can't always be there, etc.  I think making her feel more like she is useless(when she already knows she is a burden) just reinforces this notion she has that she isn't capable.  She has probably been told her whole married life that she is incapable of doing anything right.  She needs to be shown and encouraged that she has it in her to defend herself, without needing to turn into Rambo.

[Ciren]

Some people react to physical and mental abuse as well as traumatic events by getting "hardened" and tougher, but not everybody. Just depends on how you're wired and Carol's wires are obviously crossed.

Just sayin'...

[DerpinaKitty]

I like Carol because of how supportive she is of Daryl. She's a good person for him to have on his side. She's helped him develop as a character. I think she will develop more as the show goes on.

[DerpinaKitty]

Creeper, on 20 March 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

Yeah, I would love for Daryl to encourage Carol to defend herself in his gruff way, but also in a way that doesn't make her feel like a piece of crap.  Show her he is concerned about her, that he can't always be there, etc.  I think making her feel more like she is useless(when she already knows she is a burden) just reinforces this notion she has that she isn't capable.  She has probably been told her whole married life that she is incapable of doing anything right.  She needs to be shown and encouraged that she has it in her to defend herself, without needing to turn into Rambo.

Exactlyyy I think they can really push each other into the best they can be. You read my mind ^-^

[EStheChief]

Carol is prob going to be killed off as soon as possible...so who even cares where her character is going. Apparently she was to be killed off already but instead sale did

[lost walker]

zedhatch, on 19 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I agree with 90% of what you said, with the exception of Maggie, when she lost it last night I thought it was well deserved as she had just lost her home, she may have lost her sister and her father as well, she had no idea at that point.  Hell I would have lost it too.  I actually like her better in the series so far.  When she lost it on Lori I thought it was VERY well deserved as well, she is one of the few characters that have had emotional outbursts that I thought were well placed.  

but I do agree that most of the time they are clueless on women, Andrea is a perfect example, in order to be tough she has to be bitchy and thus I don't like her in the series (No offence to Lorie holden whom I actually do like and think she could play Andrea well).  In the comic Andrea is tough, but is also a sweetheart which is why she is my favorite character.  She won't take crap from anyone, but doesn't have to be bitchy to prove it, and is very sweet to those she calls friends.  I WISH that is how andrea would become in this series.

What about Andrea and Glenns moment with Dales RV? That showed a soft side of her.

[backwoodsroamer]

I think Carol's reaction of uncertainty and fear is quite natural given her history and recent loss. I do agree, and have always said the female characters in the series are not presented very well.  Too many stereotypes.  Also, what's with the dialog they gave her.  "You're his henchman."   Henchman? Henchman? Really!

Methinks the writers hath milady Carol spaketh in an archaic tongue.

Edited by backwoodsroamer, 20 March 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Maka523]

lost walker, on 20 March 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

What about Andrea and Glenns moment with Dales RV? That showed a soft side of her.

Precisely this.  Hell, this touched me a lot more than Rick and Carl's subsequent father/son moment, sappy music notwithstanding.

And if Andrea was supposedly so cold, would she have jumped so quickly to go into the night to track down the Randall search parties?  Would she have practically thrown herself out of the truck to go save Carol?  For that matter, what about checking in on Lori after her car crash or staying with Beth and Maggie to hear Maggie's story in "Triggerfinger"?  Pulling that horse blanket fully over dead Sophia's hand in "Nebraska"?  And so on and so forth.

[babywalker]

I like Carol.  Her domestic role in the group is probably what I would personally do in that situation.  I want to see her developed more before seeing her die.That being said, I couldn't believe what was coming out of her mouth in the finale.  I was like 'what the ______are you doing?  Don't ruin this for him (Daryl) you stupid ______.  Yeah, what do you want from these people?I find myself talking to my tv a lot during this show.I hope that was out of character because of a traumatic experience.  Hopefully not the new face of Carol.

[Kikora]

I kind of liked Carol in the finale, because she actually made sense every now and then. Granted she wasn't right, but she had reasons for what she said and did... That is more than what she had done two episodes back.

For one, I liked that she snapped Lori back into gear. That woman was going to search the house until the hoard was on the porch, and take everyone down with her. I liked that she, the voice of experience when it comes to loss, actually gave a glimpse into how she keeps going when she is the character who had lost the absolute most. It made me feel that she at least has the strength of spirit to not make a martyr out of herself. It was well done, in that she didn't do the cliche's break down into tears and make this about herself.

Now I know I am in disagreement with everyone else about the Rick situation. Personally, while I disagreed with what she was saying, I loved that she said it. Finally Carol isn't just sitting in a corner looking all depressed and quiet! She had an opinion, and she finally expressed it in a way that wasn't passive-aggressive! More impressively, it kind of made sense. People are still treating Daryl a bit like he's a stupid hick, and while Shane was alive Rick would ignore Daryl for his friend...Daryl himself told Dale that before he died. Also, I liked how she admitted she is useless, and maybe that will be a turning point in her character to stop being a burden on everyone else.

I would like to point out too that there is a lot that we know that Carol doesn't, and that makes a difference. No one really knows about the Shane affair, for example. They knew Shane and Rick fought, but in their eyes it was always a matter of they didn't agree with one another. Shane wanted one thing for the group, and Rick wanted another. Nine times out of ten, who got their way?


Overall... I see Carol as a work in progress. I don't want to see her become a second Lori, I don't want her to become another Andrea, and I don't want her to continue like she is or just become zombie chow. I'd like to think that the key points with her in the finale have begun to push her to being a character who wants to take care of herself.

Maybe in contrast to the comic, meeting Michonne will be a positive thing that will help toughen her a bit. XD

[Barry Cade]

backwoodsroamer, on 20 March 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I think Carol's reaction of uncertainty and fear is quite natural given her history and recent loss. I do agree, and have always said the female characters in the series are not presented very well.  Too many stereotypes.  Also, what's with the dialog they gave her.  "You're his henchman."   Henchman? Henchman? Really!

Methinks the writers hath milady Carol spaketh in an archaic tongue.

Aw, now that's where you're wrong... You're obviously not down with the kids like wot I is.

We use "Henchman" "Mountebank", "Second storey man", "Villainous Cur", "Wretch", "Bounder & Cad", "Malfeasant Swine" and "Bumpanda" like they're second nature to us. I'm talking about us kids, by the way.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

backwoodsroamer, on 20 March 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I think Carol's reaction of uncertainty and fear is quite natural given her history and recent loss. I do agree, and have always said the female characters in the series are not presented very well.  Too many stereotypes.  Also, what's with the dialog they gave her.  "You're his henchman."   Henchman? Henchman? Really!

Methinks the writers hath milady Carol spaketh in an archaic tongue.

How bout .... Minion?

[icomputergeek]

Leela, on 19 March 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

I think Carol is slowly losing her marbles. She made no sense last night, didn't try to fight, left Andrea behind when she could've helped her, had the audacity to lash out at Rick, then tried to get Daryl to leave with her, and when he refused to she tried to turn him against Rick.

Carol is never going to harden up. Now that they'll be in the prison, all cushy and safe, she won't have a reason to. She didn't fight when she was in danger.

She'll probably try to get into Daryl's pants, he'll turn her down, and she'll become zombie chow.

I wouldn't mind seeing Daryl get a little action.

[Kikora]

I don't see the sexual spark between Daryl and Carol, on either side. She has a great deal of respect for him, but hasn't really shown any romantic or sexual interest in being WITH him. I've always thought of her role with him as more matronly than anything. She is a good deal older than she was in the comics, after all. Also worth saying is that I don't see her as the kind of women who would pursue a man, as much as someone who would let a man pursuance her into loving him. If she went after Daryl... That would be a huge shift in her personality.

[backwoodsroamer]

Babs Bladdyblah, on 20 March 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

How bout .... Minion?

"Just as Carol thought all lost, the Ricktator's  minion Daryl roared into sight. With a cry of relief she leapt  on the back of his iron steed as he spitted walker skulls with bolts from his crossbow."   OK, I'll take it.

[DerpinaKitty]

Maybe she's strong because she didn't lose it like Shane did. I  think she's emotionally strong, but still has to learn to physically defend herself. They all will with time.

[Maka523]

DerpinaKitty, on 22 March 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Maybe she's strong because she didn't lose it like Shane did. I  think she's emotionally strong, but still has to learn to physically defend herself. They all will with time.

I don't think she's all that emotionally strong.  Strength, IMO, involves the overcoming of obstacles, not the absence of them (if not going friggin insane is a sign of being emotionally strong then I'd think that's setting the bar rather low).  I think she's emotionally passive.  For example, that scene in... "Triggerfinger", I believe, where Daryl pretty much all out verbally abuses her and she takes it?  I don't really feel like that's really a sign of strength at all.

comic talk:

Spoiler

As it goes, I really could see her taking an out similar to that in the comics.  Say she propositions Daryl in an attempt to tie each other closer together for protection, and he rejects her, I can see her deciding to take an out.  Especially if she continues to attempt to subvert Daryl against Rick as she did in the finale, and he continues to see through her, as he did.

Edited by gracie lou, 22 March 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[DDixonGirl]

Maka523, on 22 March 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I don't think she's all that emotionally strong.  Strength, IMO, involves the overcoming of obstacles, not the absence of them (if not going friggin insane is a sign of being emotionally strong then I'd think that's setting the bar rather low).  I think she's emotionally passive.  For example, that scene in... "Triggerfinger", I believe, where Daryl pretty much all out verbally abuses her and she takes it?  I don't really feel like that's really a sign of strength at all.

comic talk:

Spoiler

As it goes, I really could see her taking an out similar to that in the comics.  Say she propositions Daryl in an attempt to tie each other closer together for protection, and he rejects her, I can see her deciding to take an out.  Especially if she continues to attempt to subvert Daryl against Rick as she did in the finale, and he continues to see through her, as he did.

ITA.....  Carol isn't strong in any way and I don't think she wants to be....but I also see her becoming a bit more manipulative or unbalanced..

I can also see your scenario happening......hopefully, earyl in S3

[DerpinaKitty]

I don't think that's setting the bar low at all. A lot of people have struggled a lot. She'd been abused by her husband, dealt with the world ending, and with losing her daughter. Shane couldn't keep it together over a family he didn't even have. She hasn't wanted to attempt suicide like Beth or Andrea did.
She can take Daryl's crap because she's grown used to it from Ed. Like a damn callus or something.
It's a damn shame that people think so low of her.

[canawalkerswim]

DerpinaKitty, on 22 March 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't think that's setting the bar low at all. A lot of people have struggled a lot. She'd been abused by her husband, dealt with the world ending, and with losing her daughter. Shane couldn't keep it together over a family he didn't even have. She hasn't wanted to attempt suicide like Beth or Andrea did.
She can take Daryl's crap because she's grown used to it from Ed. Like a damn callus or something.
It's a damn shame that people think so low of her.

+1, well said.

[FreeRandall]

I've come to the realization that I think Carol is actually pretty strong, but she's also kind of dumb (for a lack of a better word) which bothers me.  I think she is probably an extremely resilient person, but even after everything that has happened she still lacks any basic survival skills.  She hasn't even learned to carry a weapon on her.  I think thats the problem I have with her.  It's not a lack of strength, its the fact that she is not even trying to be prepared. She's just letting the men protect her.

Edited by FreeRandall, 22 March 2012 - 03:28 AM.

[Maka523]

FreeRandall, on 22 March 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

I've come to the realization that I think Carol is actually pretty strong, but she's also kind of dumb (for a lack of a better word) which bothers me.  I think she is probably an extremely resilient person, but even after everything that has happened she still lacks any basic survival skills.  She hasn't even learned to carry a weapon on her.  I think thats the problem I have with her.  It's not a lack of strength, its the fact that she is not even trying to be prepared. She's just letting the men protect her.

I think it's a lack of a will to survive.  To quote Andrea, for Carol "it's just a habit".  It's not necessarily strength or resilience, it's just passivity.  She doesn't care enough to want to learn how to protect herself.

Quote

She can take Daryl's crap because she's grown used to it from Ed. Like a damn callus or something.

I really don't think this is a good thing.

Quote

She hasn't wanted to attempt suicide like Beth or Andrea did.

And?  Like I said, I feel strength comes from the overcoming of obstacles, not the absence of them.  It could be that she's simply too passive to contemplate suicide, because suicide involves action and thus choice.  And we all know how much Carol dislikes having to make a choice.

I'm not really looking forward to Carol dying next season.  I think it'll happen, because I think she doesn't have what it takes to survive and doesn't particularly want to find that will either.  But I don't want he to die like Redshirt #40 or anything like that.

Edited by Maka523, 22 March 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[Babs Bladdyblah]

DerpinaKitty, on 22 March 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't think that's setting the bar low at all. A lot of people have struggled a lot. She'd been abused by her husband, dealt with the world ending, and with losing her daughter. Shane couldn't keep it together over a family he didn't even have. She hasn't wanted to attempt suicide like Beth or Andrea did.
She can take Daryl's crap because she's grown used to it from Ed. Like a damn callus or something.
It's a damn shame that people think so low of her.

Nicely put.

[backwoodsroamer]

DerpinaKitty, on 22 March 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I don't think that's setting the bar low at all. A lot of people have struggled a lot. She'd been abused by her husband, dealt with the world ending, and with losing her daughter. Shane couldn't keep it together over a family he didn't even have. She hasn't wanted to attempt suicide like Beth or Andrea did.
She can take Daryl's crap because she's grown used to it from Ed. Like a damn callus or something.
It's a damn shame that people think so low of her.

I say well spoken.

[Flight815]

Kikora, on 20 March 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

For one, I liked that she snapped Lori back into gear. That woman was going to search the house until the hoard was on the porch, and take everyone down with her. I liked that she, the voice of experience when it comes to loss, actually gave a glimpse into how she keeps going when she is the character who had lost the absolute most. It made me feel that she at least has the strength of spirit to not make a martyr out of herself. It was well done, in that she didn't do the cliche's break down into tears and make this about herself.

Now I know I am in disagreement with everyone else about the Rick situation. Personally, while I disagreed with what she was saying, I loved that she said it. Finally Carol isn't just sitting in a corner looking all depressed and quiet! She had an opinion, and she finally expressed it in a way that wasn't passive-aggressive! More impressively, it kind of made sense. People are still treating Daryl a bit like he's a stupid hick, and while Shane was alive Rick would ignore Daryl for his friend...Daryl himself told Dale that before he died. Also, I liked how she admitted she is useless, and maybe that will be a turning point in her character to stop being a burden on everyone else.

Overall... I see Carol as a work in progress. I don't want to see her become a second Lori, I don't want her to become another Andrea, and I don't want her to continue like she is or just become zombie chow. I'd like to think that the key points with her in the finale have begun to push her to being a character who wants to take care of herself.

Completely agree with you. Carol is one of my absolute favorites on the show. Yes, she nags sometimes. Aside from her nagging, she's actually a rather complex and intriguing character. It's just not obvious like it is with others like Daryl or Shane. It took re-watching some episodes and scenes for me to notice her subtle (yet significant) growth throughout the series. I feel like they writers have done a wonderful job with her character, especially since she's not as significant as most of the others and doesn't get as much screen time as them. She was a weak woman when she was with Ed. No doubt about that. Weak and doting. Just before his death she finally decided to change her ways. But she doesn't show any of this in obvious ways. One of the best examples of how much her character has evolved is the scene between her and Daryl in "Triggerfinger" when he completely blows up at her. She stands there, not responding, but simply letting him vent and showing him that he can't scare her with his outward anger. This catches him off guard, and he's not sure what to do, so he keeps throwing insults (some of which really don't make much sense) but she just listens and stands her ground. She understands him and isn't afraid of him. Her reaction to Sophia's death reveals her internal strength as well. She accepts that Sophia died a long time ago, and even before Sophia comes out of the barn, Carol accepts that they may never find her. She's a very wounded soul and I think it just makes her character all the more interesting. She handles her tragic life in admirable ways. But like I said, she's subtly growing stronger. And it's emotional strength, not physical strength/fearlessness/ability to fend for herself.

I really hate how people immediately say a character (such as Carol) should die just because they're not bad ass or can't wield a weapon. Think about it. It's completely realistic that the show includes some characters who need to be protected more than others. In my opinion, it would make for a very boring and very unrealistic show to have all the characters being fully capable of fending for themselves. Think of all the middle-aged women in your life. If a zombie apocalypse were to occur, would you expect most of them to act like Andrea, or more like Lori and Carol?