[jtbeck]

Crushedknee, on 19 March 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I think your right about the sheriffs supply of rounds. Hershel was shooting a short barrel Remington 870 i think..http://www.sodahead....7_0231_3_lg.jpg I hunt with the full size version. But when your looking at Overall Ammo supply check out the a good hunting store..They will have a shelf or so of 00 and slug..and  Pallets of shells out on the floor for bird and trap shooting. So my Zombie survival needs I would trend toward a hunting shotgun with real barrel and a modified or full choke. But that's me supply and range factor more than shell capacity after shooting  thousands of rounds your not even aware reloading it just happens in 2 sec automatically.

OK. I'll be ridiculed for this but I'm going to say it anyway. My long-range weapon of choice in a ZA would be (get ready) a .22 semi auto with as many sub-sonic rounds as I could carry. Walkers "die" when the get a screwdriver in the eye - so I'm fairly certain that a .22 shell bouncing around inside their brain pan will do as much if not significantly more damage. And the sub-sonic rounds are much quieter and more accurate, as well. They wouldn't be able to pin point your location as easily as if you're hammering them with a .270 or an AK-47.

Of course I'm not sure how they can hear anyway since their eardrums should have rotted some time back as they seem to be continually decaying as time goes by.

[c.grz]

I'm fairly knowledgeable when it comes to guns but the fact that Hershel shot way more than possible without reloading doesn't bother me one bit.  It was done for dramatic effect, it could of been worse...could of used bullet time!!!

[rdrr]

Meh.  IMHO, gun realism has never been up to par in hollywood.  No one reloads and fires endless supply of rounds.  No one has their barrel creep up when they go fully auto.  There is never any recoil.  They can hold guns sideways, one handed, upside down, moving from cars, but the bullet will always find its mark. There is always someone flying back by being struck with a round.  The heroes can be shot multiple times in the abdomen without dying.

You could also pick on Lori using a stub nose pistol and plinking zombies in the head, with that inaccurate weapon.  Or how about all the drive byes at the fence with no misses?

I decided long ago to just sit back, smile, and enjoy the show.

Edited by rdrr, 19 March 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[SkunkWorks]

rdrr, on 19 March 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Meh.  IMHO, gun realism has never been up to par in hollywood.  No one reloads and fires endless supply of rounds.  No one has their barrel creep up when they go fully auto.  There is never any recoil.  They can hold guns sideways, one handed, upside down, moving from cars, but the bullet will always find its mark. There is always someone flying back by being struck with a round.  The heroes can be shot multiple times in the abdomen without dying.

So true!

I decided long ago to just sit back, smile, and enjoy the show.

Amen brother, my thoughts exactly.

[Crushedknee]

What sticks out to me is Empty shells and casings..If you shoot flying shells ejecting and hitting the ground become part of the scene..But for safety I think they are using some kind of Propane gas flare for gun firings and not blanks..So the familier sound of a shot gun cycling and ejecting rounds is not there..And the flame kind of bugs me to..oops watched it again..on close ups they are spitting out shells but not always on the longer view shots..

Edited by Crushedknee, 19 March 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Crushedknee]

jtbeck, on 19 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

OK. I'll be ridiculed for this but I'm going to say it anyway. My long-range weapon of choice in a ZA would be (get ready) a .22 semi auto with as many sub-sonic rounds as I could carry. Walkers "die" when the get a screwdriver in the eye - so I'm fairly certain that a .22 shell bouncing around inside their brain pan will do as much if not significantly more damage. And the sub-sonic rounds are much quieter and more accurate, as well. They wouldn't be able to pin point your location as easily as if you're hammering them with a .270 or an AK-47.

Of course I'm not sure how they can hear anyway since their eardrums should have rotted some time back as they seem to be continually decaying as time goes by.

a .22 at close range is very quite..Like someone in the next room watching TV quite..Lot's of ammo..I hear it's actually a popular gun round for assassins..as effective mufflers and subsonic rounds are not as effective and available as people think..

[tex]

GDPofZA, on 19 March 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

I agree, if the is was a TV show then... oh wait..

lol, it's a show about zombie apocalypse, why bog down that realism with realism?

Because in a show already asking us to suspend disbelief about walking cannibal corpses, realism = relatabilty = watchability

[SkunkWorks]

Watched the scene again. Herschel is ejecting shells (red), and he is reloading - just hard to tell with Lori yapping - but he is reloading.
My 870 gives off a small orange flash, not a big yellow one. Not sure how Hollywood makes that effect.

[tex]

Jtbeck, Max Brooks and I both agree with you about .22LRas ultimate Z-killing round. Can carry 500 in same space as 50 larger cartridges.

Only quibble would be potential reliability problems of subsonic .22 cycling semi-auto bolt 100% of the time.

[SimonSays]

rdrr, on 19 March 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Meh.  IMHO, gun realism has never been up to par in hollywood.  No one reloads and fires endless supply of rounds.  No one has their barrel creep up when they go fully auto.  There is never any recoil.  They can hold guns sideways, one handed, upside down, moving from cars, but the bullet will always find its mark. There is always someone flying back by being struck with a round.  The heroes can be shot multiple times in the abdomen without dying.

You could also pick on Lori using a stub nose pistol and plinking zombies in the head, with that inaccurate weapon.  Or how about all the drive byes at the fence with no misses?

I decided long ago to just sit back, smile, and enjoy the show.

Well said.  It's just how I view this too.

[BeardedOne]

Director:  "O.K.....in this scene I need you to hang out the window and shoot the zombies."

Actor:  "Like this?  How about like this?"

Director:  "Perfect!  No, like before, hold it sideways like that....YES!"

Firearms adviser:  "Uh....dude that's like TOTALLY wrong and I think..."

Director:  "DON'T INTERFERE WITH MY VISION!!!!!!!   ACTION!!!!!!!!!!!"

Firearms adviser: "......................"

[A Nomadic Hobo]

tex, on 19 March 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

But there are at least three instances where he fires more rounds than that particular gun holds ON SCREEN without stops, reloads, or cutaways to other scenes. They may have discussed how many rounds the gun had, but they didn't do anything to abide by the rules of gun physics in the show and as I said this cannot simply be explained away by "editing".

I understand most won't care about the "belly gun" thing, but Lincoln's exaggerated recoil was really bad acting.

Actually as a person who goes shooting every weekend,  he actually pulls the gun up then drops back down to aim, it's much more efficient then staying in the weaver stance, which will slow you down a bit. And the snub nose bothered me, cause its most likely a .38 spc, or a .357 both fired from a snub nose are incredibly inaccurate.

[mr teaspoon]

Mistakes like this don't bother me because it really makes no difference to the plot. I can appreciate that somebody familiar with guns might be irked to see Hershel fire more rounds than his weapon can actually hold, but what difference does it make to the story? If AMC were to go back and edit in a scene of him reloading, everything else could stay exactly the same.

Same deal with all the headshots from moving vehicles. Although that's admittedly a little more egregious than the number of rounds, it doesn't make the entire situation implausible. I suppose it would have been more realistic had everybody driven slower and closer to the zombies, but the basic strategy of staying inside the cars and picking them off is sound.

Edited by mr teaspoon, 19 March 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[badfish74]

Wow unrealistic gun fights in a TV show?  You don't say!  Just imagine if the show was about the dead walking the earth.  Oh wait.....

[asc.rudeboy]

Crushedknee, on 19 March 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

What sticks out to me is Empty shells and casings..If you shoot flying shells ejecting and hitting the ground become part of the scene..But for safety I think they are using some kind of Propane gas flare for gun firings and not blanks..So the familier sound of a shot gun cycling and ejecting rounds is not there..And the flame kind of bugs me to..oops watched it again..on close ups they are spitting out shells but not always on the longer view shots..

SkunkWorks, on 19 March 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Watched the scene again. Herschel is ejecting shells (red), and he is reloading - just hard to tell with Lori yapping - but he is reloading.
My 870 gives off a small orange flash, not a big yellow one. Not sure how Hollywood makes that effect.

im pretty sure the flame is CGI,there is no recoil when he pulls the trigger not even a little hop,even a .22 rifle will give you some minimal visible movement backwards.. they also used the same CGI in that horrible movie zombie apocalypse 2012,same color exaggerated flame.. i believe they used the same CGI when rick was shooting his glock,thats why he was doing that exaggerated muzzle lift,he was doing what he thought the gun would do not what it actually would do,a clean snap back,,,lol shooting like he was is called limp wristing and would cause that gun to jam anyway..

i own a moss.590A1,and that thing kills on both ends it is bruising me after the second or third round buckshot or bird shot it kicks like a mule,im 6ft tall 350 pounds of gorilla and if im going to go on a shooting spree like hershel,i have to pump myself up by the 7th round im glad its time to reload hahaha..but im a glutton for punishment and really love that shotgun.

i cant understand how they are in the middle of the country with not one person running a .22 ...22 will be king in a situation like that. someone could have posted up on the farm roof and just plucked walker after walker after walker with no fatigue,hell carl could hold a long killing session with a ,22..plus like said above a box of 500 rounds take up as much room as a tom-tom gps...hell i have a 500rnd box in my glove box right now. i buy one of those every other trip to wal-mart..i live in south Louisiana and i do not know a single person who shoots,hunts or just collects guns that dosnt own 1 or more .22s

[asc.rudeboy]

mr teaspoon, on 19 March 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

Mistakes like this don't bother me because it really makes no difference to the plot. I can appreciate that somebody familiar with guns might be irked to see Hershel fire more rounds than his weapon can actually hold, but what difference does it make to the story? If AMC were to go back and edit in a scene of him reloading, everything else could stay exactly the same.

Same deal with all the head-shots from moving vehicles. Although that's admittedly a little more egregious than the number of rounds, it doesn't make the entire situation implausible. I suppose it would have been more realistic had everybody driven slower and closer to the zombies, but the basic strategy of staying inside the cars and picking them off is sound.

its because reloading a firearm under pressure is about as easy as hitting head shots on moving targets.

adding that little bit of realism would increase the anxiety and pressure of almost any shooting scenario,because it becomes a game of staying cool and calm wile at the same time being deliberate and fast in your actions wile maintaining a sight picture of your next target...just that added step could and would change the entire feel of the scene..

[Planetary]

tex, on 19 March 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

And as always please spare me the "but it's a zombie show, suspend your disbelief" drivel - zombie fiction is ONLY worthwhile and engrossing when the zombies themselves are the ONLY far-fetched thing in the show. The survivors and everything they do need to be entrenched in reality so the viewers can RELATE to what they're experiencing as if it's really possible. If I have to suspend my disbelief of both zombies AND 7-shot shotguns that fire 15 consecutive shots, then that's asking too much and I quickly lose interest.

This is exactly the point I tried to make in the thread about Michonne and how absurd her character is. Audiences can suspend disbelief IF the show sets boundaries early and follows its own internal logic. Throw away that internal logic, and the whole thing collapses.

For example, Game of Thrones: This is a fantasy series, but primarily it's about people doing awful things to each other for the sole purpose of gaining power. There are sword fights and battles. But we would all shut off the TV in disgust if Ned Stark suddenly donned a Wizard Robe and Hat and started shooting magic laser bolts out of his fingers.

Spot on with Herschel's limitless ammo shotgun and the characters scoring head shot after head shot from cars that are moving and bumping on grass and dirt.

And I know we've discussed this in another thread, but Michonne was unintentionally comedic with her dramatic poses, dark cowl and chained walker pets.

[mr teaspoon]

asc.rudeboy, on 19 March 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

its because reloading a firearm under pressure is about as easy as hitting head shots on moving targets.

adding that little bit of realism would increase the anxiety and pressure of almost any shooting scenario,because it becomes a game of staying cool and calm wile at the same time being deliberate and fast in your actions wile maintaining a sight picture of your next target...just that added step could and would change the entire feel of the scene..

I'll agree with you in that, generally speaking, I think the more attention to detail and realism the better. And like I said, I'm not a gun guy so it's easy for me to let it go.

But again, would it have ultimately changed the outcome? Instead of Hershel standing there firing, he'd be standing there firing and reloading.

[asc.rudeboy]

yes!! it would change the entire fight, you are 1000 times more vulnerable during a reload.

look at it like this,hershal poping off rounds dropping zombies one after the other at close range,fast straight shooting is keeping him safe and alive,all of a sudden he runs out of ammo and has to do a reload,wile he is reloading a zombie get s close enough that he has to use the gun as a club to fight him off,wile he is doing that all the other zombies are gaining ground and he has to do hand to hand combat because there is not enough time to reload and fire his weapon because now he is fighting for his life with a club not a firearm.. changes the entire fight and the outcome.

or give a gun a magical unlimited ammo you can keep the zombies at bay untill your ready to retreat..

[tex]

asc.rudeboy, on 19 March 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

its because reloading a firearm under pressure is about as easy as hitting head shots on moving targets.

adding that little bit of realism would increase the anxiety and pressure of almost any shooting scenario,because it becomes a game of staying cool and calm wile at the same time being deliberate and fast in your actions wile maintaining a sight picture of your next target...just that added step could and would change the entire feel of the scene..

asc.rudeboy, on 19 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

yes!! it would change the entire fight, you are 1000 times more vulnerable during a reload.

look at it like this,hershal poping off rounds dropping zombies one after the other at close range,fast straight shooting is keeping him safe and alive,all of a sudden he runs out of ammo and has to do a reload,wile he is reloading a zombie get s close enough that he has to use the gun as a club to fight him off,wile he is doing that all the other zombies are gaining ground and he has to do hand to hand combat because there is not enough time to reload and fire his weapon because now he is fighting for his life with a club not a firearm.. changes the entire fight and the outcome.

or give a gun a magical unlimited ammo you can keep the zombies at bay untill your ready to retreat..

Spot on in both posts - with realism follows MORE drama, not less


Want to know what real HOLY S**T OH MY F***ING GOD! CR&P YOUR PANTS drama is? Talk to some soldiers/Marines or law enforcement officers who've been involved in real shootings and had to reload while the bad guys advanced on their position

[tex]

A Nomadic Hobo, on 19 March 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Actually as a person who goes shooting every weekend,  he actually pulls the gun up then drops back down to aim, it's much more efficient then staying in the weaver stance, which will slow you down a bit. And the snub nose bothered me, cause its most likely a .38 spc, or a .357 both fired from a snub nose are incredibly inaccurate.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Pulling a gun up and down is a complete non-sequitir to the "Weaver stance" (one refers to motion of the arms upon recoil energy, one refers to the stance and position of the legs) and purposely pulling a gun further up than the recoil/muzzle flip requires is the exact opposite of efficient handgun shooting.

Want to see efficient handgun recoil management in action? Watch this series of shots starting at 3:10 point in this video (also feel free to watch the entire video and learn quite a bit about handgun recoil mechanics and how to overcome this with proper grip)

[tex]

BeardedOne, on 19 March 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Director:  "O.K.....in this scene I need you to hang out the window and shoot the zombies."

Actor:  "Like this?  How about like this?"

Director:  "Perfect!  No, like before, hold it sideways like that....YES!"

Firearms adviser:  "Uh....dude that's like TOTALLY wrong and I think..."

Director:  "DON'T INTERFERE WITH MY VISION!!!!!!!   ACTION!!!!!!!!!!!"

Firearms adviser: "......................"

EXACTLY!

[Ironmangray]

A Nomadic Hobo, on 19 March 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

And the snub nose bothered me, cause its most likely a .38 spc, or a .357 both fired from a snub nose are incredibly inaccurate.

Same here...my money says Saturday Night Special, haha.

Edited by Ironmangray, 20 March 2012 - 02:31 PM.

[DrHouse2]

Are consecutive headshots from a moving vehicle unrealistic? Dozens of shot from a shotgun? Of course they are, but I'm willing to suspend that part of my belief as long as the main idea of the scene is kept realistic to an extent. Watching them miss the head and hit the body or even miss completely, is pretty boring. Seeing a Zombie get a forehead piercing is one of my favorite parts of the show, if they had actually managed to take down that herd I might have had an issue. We saw them fight for survival and fail, that was the point of the scene. It's no worse than when movies have scene where several haired henchmen are outgunned by a single person, it's just better that way. I guess it is harder to stomach when you actually know about guns and shooting, I can't even watch movie fight scenes anymore because of my MMA enthusiasm.

[mr teaspoon]

asc.rudeboy, on 19 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

yes!! it would change the entire fight, you are 1000 times more vulnerable during a reload.

I understand that. I'm not arguing that paying attention to ammo doesn't allow for more tension, it definitely provides opportunities for situations like the one you described.

But whether Hershel stands there with unlimited ammo or has to stop and reload is just a matter of what happens between point A and point B. In the end, it's still a scene where Hershel is holding off the horde and eventually leaves with the rest of the group.

You're saying that more attention to detail would not only be more realistic, but it'd allow for a more exciting scene. I agree with you. All I'm saying is that the reason I don't make a big deal of it is that ultimately the scene still makes sense.