[Faith]

daenerys, on 22 March 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Nice post, Faith.  I was shocked when Rick decided to take Randall back to the farm with them too.  As a leader he is supposed to look out for the good of the group, but a move like that could have put every single one of them directly in danger - not to mention destroying their one safe place of refuge.

I was also annoyed when he hesitatd to kill Randal (after dragging him from the barn, asking him if he wanted to stand or kneel, asking if he had any last words...).  I don't for one moment blame him for not being able to pull the trigger, but the group came to the decision that Randal was to die so it needed to be done.  A good leader recognizes their own strengths and weaknesses (as well as those of their followers)  and I felt Rick would have been better to task either Shane or Daryl with the job of executing Randal.  Rick takes too much on himself and often makes things harder than they need to be, imo.


On the positive side though, I liked (no, actually I loved) how Rick shot the men in the bar.  That was a great judgement call and a nice piece of work. I also don't see who else could lead the group in Rick's place, so as much as I question him I guess he's the best man for the job at this stage.

The bar scene was pretty cool, and I was glad when Rick just mowed them down.

[backwoodsroamer]

daenerys, on 22 March 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Nice post, Faith.  I was shocked when Rick decided to take Randall back to the farm with them too.  As a leader he is supposed to look out for the good of the group, but a move like that could have put every single one of them directly in danger - not to mention destroying their one safe place of refuge.

I was also annoyed when he hesitatd to kill Randal (after dragging him from the barn, asking him if he wanted to stand or kneel, asking if he had any last words...).  I don't for one moment blame him for not being able to pull the trigger, but the group came to the decision that Randal was to die so it needed to be done.  A good leader recognizes their own strengths and weaknesses (as well as those of their followers)  and I felt Rick would have been better to task either Shane or Daryl with the job of executing Randal.  Rick takes too much on himself and often makes things harder than they need to be, imo.


On the positive side though, I liked (no, actually I loved) how Rick shot the men in the bar.  That was a great judgement call and a nice piece of work. I also don't see who else could lead the group in Rick's place, so as much as I question him I guess he's the best man for the job at this stage.

Well, here we see the direct contrast between two entirely different situations.  The bar shooting was clear cut case of self defense. When faced with a split second decision to live or die, Rick chose to live at the cost of two other lives. Others will disagree, but to me his choice was "no brainer" as they say.

Randall was a different thing. It could be argued that killing Randall was a case of self defense also. Were he to return to his group, he could prove to be a grave threat to the safety of the farm group. The problem is, Randall was a bigger threat, but he wasn't holding a gun.

The scenes of Rick asking the group to vote,  contemplating the means of execution,  asking Randall if he wanted to stand or kneel, does he have any last words are fascinating and very well written. You see this is exactly how capitol punishment is done. It is wrapped in ceremony to make it more palatable to the public.  The humane method, the last meal, the last words are not for the condemned. They are for the executioner and the public who has decided this person must die.

Most soldiers have no qualms about firing on an advancing enemy, but many will hesitate to fire on the same group seen at a distance "smoking and joking."  This is why the trained sniper is looked upon with awe and even fear by his own comrades.  The sniper kills calmly in "cold blood."

The thing is the enemy shown mercy today may very well kill you tomorrow. This is the hard lesson Rick is being forced to learn.          

[Sungoddess]

Just watched the episode for the second time and yeah, it was a good episode.  Still think Lori handled herself badly, and the entrance of Michonne was still jarring.  

[lastman2012]

It is ironic that in the episode prior to the finale, Hershel makes a point of saying that he would stock the basement with food and water to last them several days then later that same day they all had to di di mau out of there. Too bad they didn't top up the fuel in the vehicles and put those supplies in them instead.  
   It did appear that they had become too complacent being on the farm. Obviously they wouldn't expect a huge horde to come across the back 40 but in their situation, could they really afford to not consider evacuation plans?
  
It would always be a good idea to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[Rainbowpony]

Double Tap, on 22 March 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

True, you are right they should have never brought him back to the farm or told them about where they stay. Rick has a heart of gold which is why he initially saved him, but they should have kept quiet and let him out to fend for himself somewhere rather then bringing him to the farm where they would eventually have to kill him anyway. Rick wasn't thinking then. All he was thinking was I want to be a good person and not leave a human being left for dead. I'm sure he and everyone learned a valuable lesson.

Rick needs Carl to grow up. There isn't any time to play with your kid in this ZA. The relationship him and Lori have isn't the strongest after he heard she slept with Shane, so why would he try to play good husband either? His main goal now is to keep them and the group alive so he has focused on that and that alone. Other than the Randall thing in my opinion Rick has done a good job.

I think with all the walkers and the way things are, real alive people are precious, and care should be taken to not just kill everyone who isn't part of your group unless you feel like you have a good reason.  Randall did try to kill them, but he was a young man, and it's possible he just got in with a bad crowd.  The other guy, who came around the bar and got shot, Hershel looked like he was going to go save him, but the walkers got to him first.  It's all well and good to sit on my couch and say, "Chow down, walkers" but if this was really happening in front of me, I think I would make some kind of effort to save someone from walkers even if that person had tried to kill me.  Especially if I had seen walkers kill friends and family.  

The guys in the bar Rick killed, they were telling of how they came from Nebraska and other parts.  When Rick saved Randall, knowing what he knew, it was a good plan.  Save him, stitch him up, take him off, and give him a fair shot.  May be more than Randall deserved, but that's the thing about people who care about others, they usually do make an effort to forgive.  Who could have forseen Randall was from that area and had gone to school with Maggie?  (Which is something I still don't get, how was Randall from there, yet have been with that group long enough to have the 'adventures' with them he did?)  

I would leave a group with someone like Shane as a leader.  If you've got someone who is so quick to pull a trigger and kill someone, what makes you think you won't be next?  People talk about Carol being dead weight, BOOM, no more Carol.  Taking Randall back was a good plan.  He was secured and couldn't escape, Shane is the one who released him.  I agree with the plan to take him farther away, I was totally against killing him.  If Shane hadn't pulled his crap, they would have taken Randall off, and maybe they would have noticed walkers gathering.  Maybe someone would have gotten a clue and started working the perimeter (as it appears they were beginning to after Dale got killed.) and saw the walkers.  I just think they wouldn't have been caught so off guard if Shane hadn't done what he did.

[lastman2012]

Randall was also a source if information on the other group. It was known that there was another group of less than friendlies out there. Knowing more about them would have been useful. I'm sure that being hesitant to shoot him in cold blood or leaving him for the walkers was part of it. A contrast between the "unfriendlies" and Rick's group was important to the story in my opinion also.

Of course if Shane were there, he would have said, "we ain't got time for this" and shot Randall in the head.

Edited by lastman2012, 23 March 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[DeadCave]

Rainbowpony, on 23 March 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

I think with all the walkers and the way things are, real alive people are precious, and care should be taken to not just kill everyone who isn't part of your group unless you feel like you have a good reason.  Randall did try to kill them, but he was a young man, and it's possible he just got in with a bad crowd.  The other guy, who came around the bar and got shot, Hershel looked like he was going to go save him, but the walkers got to him first.  It's all well and good to sit on my couch and say, "Chow down, walkers" but if this was really happening in front of me, I think I would make some kind of effort to save someone from walkers even if that person had tried to kill me.  Especially if I had seen walkers kill friends and family.  

The guys in the bar Rick killed, they were telling of how they came from Nebraska and other parts.  When Rick saved Randall, knowing what he knew, it was a good plan.  Save him, stitch him up, take him off, and give him a fair shot.  May be more than Randall deserved, but that's the thing about people who care about others, they usually do make an effort to forgive.  Who could have forseen Randall was from that area and had gone to school with Maggie?  (Which is something I still don't get, how was Randall from there, yet have been with that group long enough to have the 'adventures' with them he did?)  

I would leave a group with someone like Shane as a leader.  If you've got someone who is so quick to pull a trigger and kill someone, what makes you think you won't be next?  People talk about Carol being dead weight, BOOM, no more Carol.  Taking Randall back was a good plan.  He was secured and couldn't escape, Shane is the one who released him.  I agree with the plan to take him farther away, I was totally against killing him.  If Shane hadn't pulled his crap, they would have taken Randall off, and maybe they would have noticed walkers gathering.  Maybe someone would have gotten a clue and started working the perimeter (as it appears they were beginning to after Dale got killed.) and saw the walkers.  I just think they wouldn't have been caught so off guard if Shane hadn't done what he did.

It's all well and good and I heartily agree that life is definitely more precious than a dead rotting zombie. However until there is law and order restored throughout, one cannot just give "others" a benefit of the doubt. Randall (in our world) probably would've been given probation in court and if he got busted again then he be sent to jail. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Out in the woods Randall showed his true colors being excited that Shane (the toughest guy in Rick's group) "wanted to join Randall's group". Knowing the intel that Shane would have on each and their current supplies (especially weapons).  
While criminals have shown capabilities of being rehabilitated it's only because they know the consequences if they don't. In Rick's world there are no consequences except the good guys shooting back and killing them. It's the mentality that Rick is slowly learning to comprehend and adopt. Mercy isn't an option now. Not until order is restored and it won't be for a long time.
Study American history and look back to the lawlessness that was prevalent in the mid 1800's after the Civil War. It took a while to put an end to bands of robbers and free-roaming murderers and other bad folk. Such as it will be when society breaks down or (in TWD case) comes to a screeching halt and the resultant train-wreck.
You try to create your own little community/tribe and you work out a set of rules/laws for that community. You then judge others by that rule/law if they come from the outside. It may not sound fair but it'll keep you and your tribe alive. Others may barter or trade for what you have in exchange for what you need. Others may meet up and then move on. Then there will be others who will simply TAKE what you got and leave you dead or wanting.
Randall may have been just a kid that fell into the wrong group... well tough luck kiddo. He was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong and could've left at any time.

[lastman2012]

If leaving entails going out alone into that world, the choice gets a little more indistinct.  But no, the way it played out with Randall, he wasn't interested in hunkering down with the good guys. He showed an eagerness to get back to the dark side.
But like I said, he provided some information about the hostile group.

[Serenity@sea]

Damn, I just typed this long response and as I was hitting enter, we had a power surge and zap it was gone. I'll recap LOL

This is what makes this show so compelling to me. Where do we draw the line at doing the right thing in a ZA? Especially when we have to make life or death decisions in a matter of seconds. Just how much humanity can we retain in a ZA?

This is why I think I will miss Shane. The scenes with Rick and (old) Shane were interesting because if you could take the best of Shane and the best of Rick you would have one damn good leader.  


The humanity issue is why I am torn about reading the GN's. It only makes sense to me that this world would become more dark and twisted. That a ZA would bring out the worst in humans. I could be way off base here and if someone tells me that it is still something these characters struggle with, I would be all for reading them. Just call me wishy washy like Rick. LOL

Edited by Serenity@sea, 23 March 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Faith]

I think that just like anything else, there would have to be lines drawn.  With a devastating and apocalyptical circumstances like we watch, we also have to fully digest (no pun intended) that all law and order, all judicial systems, all forms of official protection and devices (like EPOs, DVOs) are gone.  They do not exist.  You really do live in a pure lawless world that has suddenly become chaotic in so many more ways than just one.  No food suppliers, no one pumping oil or creating anything that progresses the normal, daily lives that we are so accustomed to.  No power, and really....no one to tell you NO or that's ILLEGAL or STOP.  

Someone has to take on the role of law and order to maintain a semblance of how we are supposed to act.  Someone that can be seen as the "consequence" to your "action" if you screw up.  In a perfect world, we have cops, judges and prison wardens for that.  In a ZA, those things don't exist in any sort of official form.  

With Randall attempting murder like he did....  he would be sent to prison.  But, there's no prison.  The survivors become his judge and jury.  Would a judge smile and give him  a second chance, or tell him he's free to go as long as he's at least 18 miles away and forgets he knows Maggie?  He attempted to shoot Rick, and by freeing him, it was the same as slapping him on the wrist and then patting him on the back as he walked away with his second chance.

Humanity is only a good extension of good intentions, if the person deserves it.  We saw he clearly didn't deserve it in the end.  He was like a career criminal...he shot at Rick... who gave him a second chance.... and then a few days later, with Shane in the woods, Randall was pretty excited to get back to the group of bad guys that do bad things.  

Actions, in the end times, must still have consequences.

[Faith]

That person need not be defined or isolated... he'd end up being the living "Lone Ranger" legend when the world healed a few centuries later, the one that was remembered... the Robin Hood of his era.

[The Walken Dead]

Faith, on 23 March 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

Humanity is only a good extension of good intentions, if the person deserves it.  We saw he clearly didn't deserve it in the end.  He was like a career criminal...he shot at Rick... who gave him a second chance.... and then a few days later, with Shane in the woods, Randall was pretty excited to get back to the group of bad guys that do bad things.  

Actions, in the end times, must still have consequences.

A few people have commented on Randall's excitement to get back to his group. And he did certainly come off as excited to get back to his group, but I was thinking, who wouldn't be? You were about to be executed by this other group and one of them decided to sneak in and set you free and wanted to go back with you to your group. Hell yeah you're excited and more than happy to lead them back to your group! So you're free from the group that was going to kill you, and headed back to the group that is not going to kill you. What's not to be excited about?

[Maka523]

The Walken Dead, on 23 March 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

A few people have commented on Randall's excitement to get back to his group. And he did certainly come off as excited to get back to his group, but I was thinking, who wouldn't be? You were about to be executed by this other group and one of them decided to sneak in and set you free and wanted to go back with you to your group. Hell yeah you're excited and more than happy to lead them back to your group! So you're free from the group that was going to kill you, and headed back to the group that is not going to kill you. What's not to be excited about?

Telling people how your group raped little girls in front of their father and then referring to them as "cool guys" is kind of an indicator of your true intentions.

[Rainbowpony]

DeadCave, on 23 March 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

It's all well and good and I heartily agree that life is definitely more precious than a dead rotting zombie. However until there is law and order restored throughout, one cannot just give "others" a benefit of the doubt. Randall (in our world) probably would've been given probation in court and if he got busted again then he be sent to jail. Attempted murder is attempted murder. Out in the woods Randall showed his true colors being excited that Shane (the toughest guy in Rick's group) "wanted to join Randall's group". Knowing the intel that Shane would have on each and their current supplies (especially weapons).  
While criminals have shown capabilities of being rehabilitated it's only because they know the consequences if they don't. In Rick's world there are no consequences except the good guys shooting back and killing them. It's the mentality that Rick is slowly learning to comprehend and adopt. Mercy isn't an option now. Not until order is restored and it won't be for a long time.
Study American history and look back to the lawlessness that was prevalent in the mid 1800's after the Civil War. It took a while to put an end to bands of robbers and free-roaming murderers and other bad folk. Such as it will be when society breaks down or (in TWD case) comes to a screeching halt and the resultant train-wreck.
You try to create your own little community/tribe and you work out a set of rules/laws for that community. You then judge others by that rule/law if they come from the outside. It may not sound fair but it'll keep you and your tribe alive. Others may barter or trade for what you have in exchange for what you need. Others may meet up and then move on. Then there will be others who will simply TAKE what you got and leave you dead or wanting.
Randall may have been just a kid that fell into the wrong group... well tough luck kiddo. He was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong and could've left at any time.

Most of what you are saying makes sense in hindsight.  I'm referring to what is known at the time it happens.  Rick didn't know what Randall told Shane (and still doesn't know, btw) when he decided to pull him off the fence and save his life. Plus he didn't know how long the kid had been with the group, etc. etc. etc.  

Also, if you have that attitude, then how are you going to have a tribe?  Before the walker attack at the quarry, this group was pretty big, and it was made up of strangers that came together when society broke down.  Then there's 'our' group being on the farm.  According to what you're saying, Otis should have just shot Shane and Rick after he accidentally shot Carl.  He would probably still be alive if he had, and I think Patricia and Jimmy would be, too, as Otis was monitoring the perimeter and picking up walkers to put in the barn, so if Shane had not shot Otis, they probably wouldn't have ended up in this situation.  Also, Morgan wouldn't have helped out Rick, so as far as this show goes, without people being willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, there wouldn't be much of a show.

[Rainbowpony]

Faith, on 23 March 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I think that just like anything else, there would have to be lines drawn.  With a devastating and apocalyptical circumstances like we watch, we also have to fully digest (no pun intended) that all law and order, all judicial systems, all forms of official protection and devices (like EPOs, DVOs) are gone.  They do not exist.  You really do live in a pure lawless world that has suddenly become chaotic in so many more ways than just one.  No food suppliers, no one pumping oil or creating anything that progresses the normal, daily lives that we are so accustomed to.  No power, and really....no one to tell you NO or that's ILLEGAL or STOP.  

Someone has to take on the role of law and order to maintain a semblance of how we are supposed to act.  Someone that can be seen as the "consequence" to your "action" if you screw up.  In a perfect world, we have cops, judges and prison wardens for that.  In a ZA, those things don't exist in any sort of official form.  

With Randall attempting murder like he did....  he would be sent to prison.  But, there's no prison.  The survivors become his judge and jury.  Would a judge smile and give him  a second chance, or tell him he's free to go as long as he's at least 18 miles away and forgets he knows Maggie?  He attempted to shoot Rick, and by freeing him, it was the same as slapping him on the wrist and then patting him on the back as he walked away with his second chance.

Humanity is only a good extension of good intentions, if the person deserves it.  We saw he clearly didn't deserve it in the end.  He was like a career criminal...he shot at Rick... who gave him a second chance.... and then a few days later, with Shane in the woods, Randall was pretty excited to get back to the group of bad guys that do bad things.  

Actions, in the end times, must still have consequences.

Lol, I consider myself a good person, but if I was saved by this group, then had the crap beaten out of me and was seconds from taking a bullet to the head by this group, I'd be pretty eager to get back to my group, too.  I don't think Randall was aware he was being given a reprieve and was going to be let loose again, but even if he was, look what happened the last time.  From my POV, I like this group and want them to make it, because this is who the show is focused on and who I know, but from Randall's POV, I'd want to put as much distance between them and me as I possibly could, even if it meant on my own with no weapon.  If I had someone like Shane telling me they were going to take me back to my group, I'd probably be wetting myself with joy and relief.  

I personally don't know if Randall was a good guy or a bad guy, from what was on the show.  Interviews with the director and writer seem to imply he was a bad guy, but I think on the show they left it vague and open to interpretation.  Plus, like I said earlier, all this stuff wasn't known about him when he was pulled off the fence, all they did know was he was with a group of people who had tried to kill them, and had shot at them himself.  Rick knew Shane killed Otis, and said he was okay with it and would have done it himself, so it's not like Rick is pure as the driven snow, either.  

I understand why Rick did what he did.  He got help from Morgan.  Glen could have pretended he never saw Rick, but he risked himself to save Rick.  Hershel took them in, even if it was only going to be temporary, and saved Rick's son's life.  Rick would be a major asshole in my book if he couldn't try to help after all the help he's been given.

[Rainbowpony]

Maka523, on 23 March 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Telling people how your group raped little girls in front of their father and then referring to them as "cool guys" is kind of an indicator of your true intentions.

Not if you're telling this to a biker you don't know from Adam.  I don't think most bikers rape little girls in front of their fathers as a rule, but I do know the stereotype exists.  I think if Randall had been telling Merle this story instead of Daryl, he might have gotten somewhere...



And just to avoid being accused of being a biker hater when someone comes along and misreads my post, I AM a biker, so if you read this as me hating on them, read it again.

[Serenity@sea]

Rainbowpony, on 23 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Not if you're telling this to a biker you don't know from Adam.  I don't think most bikers rape little girls in front of their fathers as a rule, but I do know the stereotype exists.  I think if Randall had been telling Merle this story instead of Daryl, he might have gotten somewhere...



And just to avoid being accused of being a biker hater when someone comes along and misreads my post, I AM a biker, so if you read this as me hating on them, read it again.

Not to mention, a "biker" who is beating the shit out of you.

And no, I am not a biker hater either. LOL

[The Walken Dead]

Maka523, on 23 March 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Telling people how your group raped little girls in front of their father and then referring to them as "cool guys" is kind of an indicator of your true intentions.

I wasn't saying he is a saint, just think he was trying to find a place to fit in where he can continue to stay alive. And to be honest, I forgot about the rape talk... but it wasn't Randall that did it, he was telling Daryl of the awful things this other group has done. Again, not saying he's a saint, or even that he should not have been killed, all I'm saying is, of course he was nearly giddy... he just got a pardon from death row!

Just my opinion, but I believe Randall was a follower and a product of his environment and likely to go along with whatever the group was doing to be able to stay with them and not have to go it alone... he probably would have made himself fit into either group.

[backwoodsroamer]

Rainbowpony, on 23 March 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

Not if you're telling this to a biker you don't know from Adam.  I don't think most bikers rape little girls in front of their fathers as a rule, but I do know the stereotype exists.  I think if Randall had been telling Merle this story instead of Daryl, he might have gotten somewhere...



And just to avoid being accused of being a biker hater when someone comes along and misreads my post, I AM a biker, so if you read this as me hating on them, read it again.

I was wondering who that lunatic with the Rainbowpony colors who went by the other day was. I'll say this, you've got nerve.

[RickGrimeyGrimes]

Just watched it.




All I have to say is,

Michonne, GET IN !!!! and The Prison GET IN !!!!  

[Destroy the Brain]

Absolutely brilliant episode! Hershel was brilliant, seemed willing to die in a blaze of glory defending his home! Sad to see the RV abandoned, why didn't Jimmy lock the door? The "Ricktatorship" has been a long time coming to be perfectly honest, the entire group looking to him to make decisions but constantly whining when they disagree with his course of action had to end!


Darly was just as bad ass as ever and I really felt for Andrea's mad dash through the forests with a group of Ghouls hot on her trail. The Woman with the zombies chained to her was actually amazing (I know this is a subjective opinion), I just thought these "pets" were a really cool touch to a very mysterious character that should be a brilliant addition to the story in series 3. I thought the tension that Rick's speech caused at the end was great and is a good set up for the social issues that will continue to cause cracks in the survivors next season.

Overall opinions of the series: Very good, we have seen the group completely change in dynamic from the start of the season with the deaths of some of the main cast and the addition of Hershel's family which I think accurately represents the realistic fluidity of a band of survivors should a Zombie apocalypse take place. The first half of the season was a bit slow with the whole "search for Sophia" but it really picked up following the mid- season break. Can't wait for Autumn, luckily Game of Thrones is back on soon to keep me tided over and Grimm, Homeland and Luck are all brilliant aswell!

[JaeBoogie]

Can someone please tell me how to add the SPOILER BUTTON on mobile?? I cant seem to figure out how an 100% of my time on this forum is from mobile....

please and Thank you!

[Faith]

Try adding the brackets for it manually...   like this, but all together:

[ spoiler ] text [ / spoiler ]

[JaeBoogie]

Faith, on 24 March 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Try adding the brackets for it manually...   like this, but all together:

[ spoiler ] text [ / spoiler ]

Ok lets see....

[Spoiler] Your momma! [Spoiler]

[JaeBoogie]

Nope didnt work lol