[journeynsolace]

backwoodsroamer, on 06 March 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

Ever seen a small group in action. What we see on the show is exactly what happens. A few people call the shots while the others amble along with the herd.  Not flaming you. I've just seen the same thing happen over and over again.  Even seen the supposed leader in the herd while a subordinate led.  It's a sad fact, most people are sheep.

Oh yes, I know that's what happens, but usually in a small group the leaders at least put on a semblance of group decision making for the big decisions (like where to go next when they were leaving the Atlanta campsite, what to do with Randall, etc.). A lot of the day-to-day stuff is often "just tell me what to do and I'll do it", and that's actually usually what's needed.

I think I'm just used to being in the leadership position (or at least a "co-leader"), so if I ever found myself in a group where I wasn't, I'd feel really uncomfortable and be thinking about how to get out of that group if I didn't feel my voice was being at least heard (if not followed).

[vikingjedi]

Gunslinger, on 05 March 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

How about for attempted murder when he was on the roof shooting at them as they came out of the bar?

I think shooting at somebody is a lot different from killing them. The punishment has to fit the crime.

For example what about the fight Rick and Shane had last week. Throwing a wrench at Rick's head like Shane did is attempted murder but if Shane had killed Rick with the wrench the crime would be far worse.

[daenerys]

I was thinking that Randal was going to escape and Daryl would hunt him down, so my pick was Randal. I was proud of Daryl for having the gonads to put Dale out of his misery though.

[jenna2008]

backwoodsroamer, on 05 March 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Fangirl!!! And a spoiler whore too, if I remember right.

Hell yes!!!!

[Nocturne]

I thought it would have been a powerful scene if the 'Sorry Brother' was directed at T-Dog but then I was surprised more with it being Dale.  I wanted Dale to stick around and develop a relationship with Andrea.  I'll miss the comfort of him in the RV, which I think Glenn may inherit.  Hopefully Hershel will stay alive and become the wise elder.

[jaege]

RegushRacing, on 05 March 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I look a it like when a person is drunk, when your drunk you don't care and behave how you are. on a forum nobody knows each other(for the most part) so you don't have to hide who you are. ie you don't care and behave as you are. For the most part.

Then you look at it incorrectly. These people on the forum are answering a question as if they were in a "walking dead" world. Even the ones who may claim that this is actually how they are, are in fact not that way. It is a lot harder to kill a person while looking them in the eye while they beg for thier life than most people think. Rick's hesitation is the more realistic actions of any of the characters there.

The thing I do not understand is, why it never occured to anyone to let Randel join them. His group left him for dead, Rick saved him from zombies and then nursed him back to health. They have a fairly safe secure area to live. Plenty of food and some confort. Why would they think the kid would want to rejoin his old group? Or even could rejoin them for that matter. They should have questioned him first to see where his loyalties lay before resorting to torture and threat of death. Of course at this point, with what he has seen of this group he likely has no desire to stay since they seem like nutcases.

[Slider13]

Have you seen the trailer for next weeks episode?

Spoiler

It looks to me like Randall escapes and is probably going to try to make a bee-line back to find his rapist friends. If you think for a sec. that he's innocent then you're crazy, that kid's as dark a character as there is on that show with plenty to hide, and even more to atone for. My guess is he's walker bait by the end of this Sunday's episode...

Edited by gracie lou, 08 March 2012 - 01:11 AM.
spoiler tags

[Sungoddess]

Ansceniiiic, on 05 March 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Next episode will be Rick waking up in the hospital, everything back to normal and it all turned out to be just a nightmare.





Directed by M. Night. Shyamalan.

LMAO!

[Dr. Wu]

jaege, on 06 March 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

Then you look at it incorrectly. These people on the forum are answering a question as if they were in a "walking dead" world. Even the ones who may claim that this is actually how they are, are in fact not that way. It is a lot harder to kill a person while looking them in the eye while they beg for thier life than most people think. Rick's hesitation is the more realistic actions of any of the characters there.

The thing I do not understand is, why it never occured to anyone to let Randel join them. His group left him for dead, Rick saved him from zombies and then nursed him back to health. They have a fairly safe secure area to live. Plenty of food and some confort. Why would they think the kid would want to rejoin his old group? Or even could rejoin them for that matter. They should have questioned him first to see where his loyalties lay before resorting to torture and threat of death. Of course at this point, with what he has seen of this group he likely has no desire to stay since they seem like nutcases.

In terms of your first point, I cannot imagine anything more horrific than having to pull the trigger on someone in that situation.  That kind of thing will never leave you, and Rick's hesitation is certainly understandable and realistic.

But as far as questioning him:  what would that tell you?  Even if he can't wait to get back to the gang-rapes, pillaging, and overall debauchery, he is certainly not going to let that be known.  He will act like he hated them, he was tricked into staying with them, he was looking for a way out, he will be a good boy now -- whatever he needs to in order to get to a point where he can either escape, or they let him go.  Questioning him, even at the very beginning, would tell you nothing about his loyalties.

But look at it another way.  Would Glenn have joined that group?  If he had, by accident, would he have stayed with them once he saw who they were?  Would he have shot at Rick, when Rick had already said that he didn't want trouble.  I can't see Glenn doing any of those things, under any circumstances.  Same goes with Rick, Shane (I know people will disagree here), Dale, Daryl, T-Dog, Herschel.   Why not?  Because they are basically good, trustworthy people.  There are certain lines that they just won't cross.  Randall isn't like that.  The fact that he was with that group is proof of that.  Maybe he isn't as hard-core as the others in the group, but there is a fundamental difference between him, and everybody in Rick's group.

For a person like that, the quiet comfort of a farm is going to hold little appeal.  Maybe over time Randall could change.  But that kind of change takes years, not hours.  Trust people like that, without any kind of police or outside help, and it will have a very bad ending.

[Melissa78]

inv1s1ble raven, on 05 March 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

Dale really had been annoying for a while now.  was anyone else quoting "In nomine Patris et fillii et Spiritus Sancti" as Daryl was looking down on Dale?

LOL*snort*

[JaeBoogie]

UniformSierra, on 05 March 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

I was disappointed to see that Rick couldn't put his head on his shoulders this episode. I would have a hard time killing Randall if I were put to the task, but I didn't ask to be the leader.

If Randall is let free, he will go to wherever he has the best chance of survival. That would be with his old gang of rapers/looters which are heavily armed. They're going to want to know what happened to him, and Randall will be more than willing to let them know that they're on Hershell's farm and that will be game over. I think that killing Randall was the best option available. It's a sad thing, but it had to be done. If they kept him then he was just a time bomb waiting to escape or kill people in the camp.

The stakes were too high, Randall needed to be killed.

Dale was really pissing me off these past few episodes. So seeing him get killed was a sad but relieving moment. Would he be able to live with the fact Randall escaped or was let go only to come back and rape and murder the rest of the group? Although I'm not a big Shane fan, he was spot on when he told Dale it was on his hands.

This.

Dale had been gettin on my nerves the last few episodes as well...i understand he was the "moral compass" but, to me, he was just whiny and in everyones business all the time...in dales eyes it was like everything was wrong, killing the walkers in the barn, killing randall....he seemed more interested in humanity than the hard, life saving survival skills

[JaeBoogie]

And anyone saying they should have "questioned him better" is just delirious IMO!

the kid was basically on death row an would have played innocent till the end. He would have told rick whatever he wanted to hear to save his own skin!! You think he'd be like "ya i raped those girls too, im a bad guys, etc..."? hell no! He wouldve said ANYTHING to get rick and the group not to kill him!!

how can u trust someone, knowing their answers depend on their life? If someone had a gun to my head, im tellin them whatever they wanna hear so hopefully they dont KILL ME!!

[journeynsolace]

JaeBoogie, on 09 March 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

And anyone saying they should have "questioned him better" is just delirious IMO!

the kid was basically on death row an would have played innocent till the end. He would have told rick whatever he wanted to hear to save his own skin!! You think he'd be like "ya i raped those girls too, im a bad guys, etc..."? hell no! He wouldve said ANYTHING to get rick and the group not to kill him!!

how can u trust someone, knowing their answers depend on their life? If someone had a gun to my head, im tellin them whatever they wanna hear so hopefully they dont KILL ME!!

I think most people wanted the questions to start during the week when he was healing. They could have used the "nice" approach then: ("hey, we saved you and your group left you. We're patching you up. Help us out.")

Then, if they later were using actual torture, the questions could have been better. Any interrogation is supposed to ask a lot of questions, repeating many in a different way, to try best to figure out what is truth or not. Just asking a few questions is the absolute worst way to get the truth, but asking tons, some innocuous and some not, is a way to best assess when the person is telling the truth or not. If someone is in pain, he's less likely to keep his lies straight, for instance.

Please note, however, I absolutely agree that torture is NOT a very good source of reliable information, particularly in situations where the person is willing to or wants to be a martyr of some kind. However, it can definitely work on weaker people, particularly just "some kid" who is terrified and who might not retain strong loyalty to a group who just left him to die.

But, again, they had a WEEK to use the carrot and not the stick to get information from him.

[DesmondHume]

I don't know why but I have a feeling it'll be Dale.

[Erasure]

backwoodsroamer, on 05 March 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Oh God yes, how many times have hack writers gone for the dream sequence cop out.

In general I dislike the "dream sequence" cop-out.

However, it's use in the finale of "Newhart" was, in my opinion, one of the most clever bits of TV writing ever.


For those who aren't familiar with the finale, I'll explain. Bob Newhart starred in "The Bob Newhart" show, which often ended in scenes where he was discussing events with his on-screen wife, played by Suzanne Pleshette, in bed.

After "The Bob Newhart" show, Bob starred in an entirely different situation comedy called "Newhart" with different characters and a different on-screen wife played by Mary Frahn. After eight years of this new comedy, in the series finale (filmed live), a bed was pushed onto stage. Bob Newhart appeared from the bed, and then his wife FROM THE PREVIOUS TV SHOW, played by Suzanne Pleshette, appeared from under the covers. Newhart then explained the entire eight year run of "Newhart" as a bad dream. I can't describe it properly, but IMHO it's hilarious and a really clever idea.

This finale was repeated in the extras for the last series of Lost, with Bob Newhart waking up in bed with Kate Austen.

[Wylde Ronin]

RegushRacing, on 05 March 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I look a it like when a person is drunk, when your drunk you don't care and behave how you are. on a forum nobody knows each other(for the most part) so you don't have to hide who you are. ie you don't care and behave as you are. For the most part.

Drunken words are sober thoughts, and as you said, on the internet, or forums as we are now, people can speak freely unless they actually care what others think.

[Wylde Ronin]

JaeBoogie, on 09 March 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

This.

Dale had been gettin on my nerves the last few episodes as well...i understand he was the "moral compass" but, to me, he was just whiny and in everyones business all the time...in dales eyes it was like everything was wrong, killing the walkers in the barn, killing randall....he seemed more interested in humanity than the hard, life saving survival skills

Dale didn't think that killing the Walkers in the barn was wrong he thought the way it was went about was wrong. i.e his whole problem with Shane. He wasn't being whiny, people looked at him that way because he was questioning decisions, something that needs to be done in any situation, albeit mostly after something has been decided. He was in their business 'most' of the time because he was starting to realize that these people were turning into different people entirely, no longer who they once were. And that was where he realized that they were losing their humanity, i.e. trying to save the man until the group decided on a better course of just killing him outright. That was his point, they were just going to kill him, no questions asked, that was his problem. The last part of your comment really just invalidates itself, he was only interested in retaining their humanity after they started to lose sight of who they were. Before that he was all for helping the group, and surviving.

Someone else said before on this thread, that Dale needed to just stop or something along those lines because civilization was gone, and the old set of rules didn't apply anymore. I point out that civilization and humanity are two different things in their entirety. Yes civilization is gone, but the rules, the 'humanity' upon which 'civilization was built, those are never gone. It's what separates us from animals. It's what keeps us human. And anyone who says that making the decisions that Shane made in the show were the hard ones, then you are as weak and as scared as him. Those were easy decisions, they let you just forget that you're human, and make you out to be an animal just trying to survive. The decisions that Rick had to make, and that Dale reminded him to make, those were the hard ones, because they made you retain your humanity, reminded you what it meant to be human.

That's all I have to say on this matter. Daryl made it clear when he said, "Sorry, brother." He was apologizing, because he knew that without Dale to be that voice of reason, they would be truly broken, And he was sorry to have to see him die, and basically admit the beginning of the nd for the group.

[gracie lou]

Great post, Wylde.

[Barry Cade]

Excellent post there Wylde +1 from me.

[Wylde Ronin]

gracie lou, on 23 May 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Great post, Wylde.

Barry Cade, on 23 May 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Excellent post there Wylde +1 from me.

Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment.

[JoshGrimes]

backwoodsroamer, on 05 March 2012 - 04:03 AM, said:

I have no idea where this is going, but we are being shown time and again Rick lacks the resolve to be a good leader. He doesn't have the "stomach" for the job.  Shane is too much.  Rick is too little. Is Daryl juuuust right?

You Daryl fan boys annoy the shit out of me

[Barry Cade]

JoshGrimes, on 28 May 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

You Daryl fan boys annoy the shit out of me

LANGUAGE TIMOTHY!

[scarylala]

Zomguru, on 05 March 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

Who thinks next episode someone will wake up from a dream and Dale will be alive?

what if the whole thing was a dream and zombies arent real? LMFAO! thats what Carl gets for eating cheese b4 going 2 bed

[Zombie Dragoness111]

MaskedMamba, on 05 March 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

Can't believe Rick couldn't bring himself to euthanize Dale, it wasn't killing it was mercy. Not killing Randall made sense because he found out his 12? year old son is becoming blood thirsty and I think he would have done it if Carl hadn't shown up. Carl completely fucked up everything this episode. He resulted in Randall living and Dale dying.

Yeah I was like WTF when Rick was like 'oh, Carl it's ok it's not your fault....'??? HUH??? yes it was!!! He wondered into the woods, teased a walker, basically led it to camp (what is it they say about never teasing an animal???) I am usually one for sticking up for this kid but the one time he needed to be called out on something he fucked up for REAL his dad coddles him!

I think that Carl seeing him almost shoot randal shook Rick, I think he was afraid of him seeing it, so daryl picks up the slack, it's ok... He'll be a better wingman anyway .

[Deadpelican]

JoshGrimes, on 28 May 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

You Daryl fan boys annoy the shit out of me

I'm a Daryl fan, but I don't think he should be leader, and neither does Daryl. Not being a father, Daryl is in a better position to do the 'dirty work.' I understand why Rick didn't want to shoot Dale.   Rick's son doesn't need a father who performs "mercy killings."  It's not something he should have to explain to his child. If I had been in Daryl's position I would have told Rick to let me take care of it.

Edited by Deadpelican, 29 September 2012 - 12:18 AM.