[tex]

There are so many Shane vs Rick threads here already, I thought I'd just start a new one to discuss these characters knowing what we now know after seeing 18 Miles Out.

* Rick HAS NOW done something just about as bad as Shane pointing the gun at Rick (not quite, but close enough for discussion) - if you're unsure, watch the episode again or listen to Andrew Lincoln himself discuss what Rick was doing/thinking in one of the interview videos posted in the S2E10 "media" thread. Rick LEFT SHANE on that bus. That WAS his intention - to leave him behind and let him die (and take this stupid kid he just met with him, thus saving the stranger's life AGAIN and sacrificing Shane). It's not until Rick sees the two dead rent-a-cops laying side by side that he has the change of heart and goes back to rescue Shane. Just like Shane DIDN'T ACTUALLY SHOOT RICK (just thought about it for a second), Rick didn't actually leave Shane to die of course (he comes back for the rescue), he just thought about it and was "doing it" in effect until he saw the dead rent-a-cops.

So can we now put to rest "Shane pointed a gun at Rick" as a point against Shane and for Rick in the endless comparisons? They have now BOTH thought about and come very closing to killing the other.

* And yes, Shane again "tried to kill Rick" by throwing the wrench (or at least flung it out of unconscious anger/rage). And Rick admitted early in episode to wanting to kill Shane (bash his teeth down his throat until he choked on them) when he first realized Shane had been with Lori.

* So far, Rick hasn't personally done anything as morally questionable as killing Otis, so I guess Shane haters can still cling to that. But Rick all but agreed wtih Shane's choice during the conversation at the crossroad - all but said he'd do the same thing to save Carl's life (he'd do ANYTHING). So reasonably, that criticism as a comparison to the "better Rick" is gone now too. Both men would've done same thing.

So what's left?

* Shane attempted to rape Lori, yes - unequivocally bad on Shane

* Shane is mean to, vaguely threatens Dale when Dale is being an accusatory asshole and hiding guns (how bad this is depends on perspective I guess)

* Shane is basically stalking Lori at this point - bad for sure, but Lori is not blameless

Anything I'm forgetting?

Just trying to keep up with the judges' scorecards

There's no doubt in my mind Rick is the "better man" between the two. But I strongly disagree that Shane is "evil" or a "bad person" - he has dealt poorly with the ZA in many ways, but in many other ways he's been not only RIGHT in his difficult decisions, but also heroic and inspiring. He is not the purely selfish monster many paint him to be. He is the most interesting and complex character on the show - both the character AND the actor are stealing scene after scene from the lead (Bernthal, IMHO, is a markedly better actor than Lincoln - though admittedly Lincoln's accent turns me off quite a bit - he does a decent job with it, but often times you can tell he's just trying to hard to sound like a low, gruff, scratchy baritone).

I wish/hope the show will keep these two "buddy cops" going along beyond this season. Perhaps a temporary parting of the ways - Shane ventures out into the world alone or with Andrea, maybe finds out how hard it is without Rick, and returns - but I definitely don't want to see Shane killed this season.

These two are starting to remind me a lot of Vic Mackey and Shane Vendrell from "The Shield" - though the dynamic is different - Mackey is what many believe TWD Shane is (selfish and dangerous), and Shield Shane was a lapdog following along who ultimately become in many ways MORE dangerous, but still held onto more of his humanity in a totally fucked up way (If you haven't seen The Shield you're missing one of the best TV shows of all time, seriously). And while The Shield was a wholly original work (no comic book), the INTENTION was for Shield Shane to be killed off early in the show. But the actor (Walton Goggins, honestly maybe the finest actor on the planet right now. Period. His work in The Shield is unparalleled), was SO GOOD and stole so many scenes from the lead actor and the character so quickly became the most talked about amongst the fans that the showrunners HAD TO keep him on for the entire run of the show.

Hoping that happens with TWD Shane in some way. The dynamic and history between Rick and Shane is too interesting and Bernthal is too good an actor to leave now. I hear about all these "awesome" comic book characters (Tyrese, Michonne) but why the need to introduce new "badass" sidekicks when Shane is right there? I'd love to see Shane and Rick - never completely resolving their issues, still fighting like brothers - but at least "together" in some way, fighting off zombie hordes and Governors or whatever may be coming.

Dramatically, of course, I also can see the payoff of killing Shane now - but only if his true self - complex and not clearly pigeon holed as "the bad guy" is fully realized before his death. This is why if he has to go, I want him to go out heroicly in some way so that even the "Shane haters" have to rethink their image of Shane.

Anyway, y'all have fun dissecting all of this long post (but please limit the fanboy pissing-match BS ... you listening Merle?)

[jenna2008]

Good God I really hope Merle somehow totally misses this thread
Now onto your post....

How can you state that Rick is just as bad as Shane just cuz he THOUGHT about (but didn't) leave Shane on the bus?
Also, how can you compare Shane literally trying to kill Rick (the wrench) with Rick telling Shane he wanted to bash his teeth in when he found out that Shane was screwing his wife? Ummm, wouldn't everyone feel the same way??
Also, Rick (as a father) would do WHATEVER it takes to keep his child alive, so would any other parent on the face of the Earth. I know I would. The problem with the Shane/Otis scene (IMO) is that Shane shot Otis for no reason. I personally don't believe the sacrificing crap cuz Shane was the one who was injured, not Otis. Otis was the one who refused to leave Shane behind. Otis was helping Shane. That's why Shane shooting him made no sense.
I agree that Shane and Rick should go on fighting like brothers because I really think they are a great team (kinda yin/yang lol) but I don't think that's going to happen.  

Spoiler

But I do hope that they make Shane's death something heroic.

It would be a nice twist to leave the haters with a 'damn-I-was-wrong' idea about Shane.

[Sheriff In Town]

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Good God I really hope Merle somehow totally misses this thread
Now onto your post....

How can you state that Rick is just as bad as Shane just cuz he THOUGHT about (but didn't) leave Shane on the bus?
Also, how can you compare Shane literally trying to kill Rick (the wrench) with Rick telling Shane he wanted to bash his teeth in when he found out that Shane was screwing his wife? Ummm, wouldn't everyone feel the same way??
Also, Rick (as a father) would do WHATEVER it takes to keep his child alive, so would any other parent on the face of the Earth. I know I would. The problem with the Shane/Otis scene (IMO) is that Shane shot Otis for no reason. I personally don't believe the sacrificing crap cuz Shane was the one who was injured, not Otis. Otis was the one who refused to leave Shane behind. Otis was helping Shane. That's why Shane shooting him made no sense.
I agree that Shane and Rick should go on fighting like brothers because I really think they are a great team (kinda yin/yang lol) but I don't think that's going to happen.  

Spoiler

But I do hope that they make Shane's death something heroic.

It would be a nice twist to leave the haters with a 'damn-I-was-wrong' idea about Shane.

This is every thought I had while reading Tex's original post, especially regarding Otis. Something I would like to add, however, is there is a difference between thinking about shooting somebody (creating a violent situation) and thinking about leaving somebody when they are surrounded by zombies (an already violent situation.) Shane thought about deliberately hurting/killing Rick himself, while Shane was already in danger (which is partially his own fault) and Rick was simply thinking about doing nothing to help him. There's a big difference.

[tex]

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Good God I really hope Merle somehow totally misses this thread

I agree

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Now onto your post....

How can you state that Rick is just as bad as Shane just cuz he THOUGHT about (but didn't) leave Shane on the bus?

First of all he didn't just think about it, he DID IT - he LEFT. Yes he returned after seeing the dead cop partners and his guilt kicked in. But he DID LEAVE fully intending to leave Shane behind (Andrew Lincoln says so in an interview).

Also I'm comparing that action directly to Shane aiming at (but not shooting Rick). Sort of an even trade.

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

Also, how can you compare Shane literally trying to kill Rick (the wrench) with Rick telling Shane he wanted to bash his teeth in when he found out that Shane was screwing his wife? Ummm, wouldn't everyone feel the same way??

Not a direct trade off, I realize. And certainly points out Rick's restraint compared to Shane's impulsiveness. But both have thought about and actually attempted to kill the other at this point. I still believe Rick is the "better man" but Shane - in comparison - is not as bad as he's often portrayed. His PTSD is just showing through more readily than others because of his testosterone-fueled personality.

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

The problem with the Shane/Otis scene (IMO) is that Shane shot Otis for no reason. I personally don't believe the sacrificing crap cuz Shane was the one who was injured, not Otis. Otis was the one who refused to leave Shane behind. Otis was helping Shane. That's why Shane shooting him made no sense.

I"ve explained my take on Shane-Otis ad nauseum - sorry don't have the energy to type it all out again you can read it in this thread http://www.roamersan...us/page__st__40

jenna2008, on 27 February 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

I agree that Shane and Rick should go on fighting like brothers because I really think they are a great team (kinda yin/yang lol) but I don't think that's going to happen.  

Spoiler

But I do hope that they make Shane's death something heroic.

It would be a nice twist to leave the haters with a 'damn-I-was-wrong' idea about Shane.

If Shane has to go, that's the ending I'm hoping for (but I'm hoping he stays a while longer)

[Survivor]

tex, on 27 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Rick LEFT SHANE on  that bus. That WAS his intention - to leave him behind and let him die.

Just like Shane DIDN'T ACTUALLY SHOOT RICK (just thought about it for a second)

Shane pointed a gun at Rick. That is considering cold blooded murder. Rick is think about leaving Shane on a buss surrounded by walkers. That is not the same as pointing a gun. Rick had to risk his own life saving Shane, and does so following happenings he cannot be fully blamed for.

You got to be two to fight. Rick hit first, but after that comment from Shane, it would be pretty understandable even in the normal zombie-free world. Shit happens, people fight, and they both did so in a pretty ok manner. But - and this is a big one - while Rick used his fists, Shanes throw a wrench against Rick's head. THAT is not the same fair man-to-man fight we saw earlier. That shit is NOT acceptable. Shane is the one, again, to escalate things.

It's SHANES wrench-throwing that ultimately leads to him stranded on the bus. You CANNOT compare a gun-pointing to thinking about not taking a huge risk saving another mans life. It's not even possible to justify Shane the slightest bit here.

EVEN if Rick had just left, it's not comparable to gun-pointing. You could understand it if Rick wasn't willing to risk his own life for someone close to killing him seconds before. Shane could have made it out alive even if Rick had left.

tex, on 27 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Both men would've done same thing. (Survitors note: About Otis)

This one I agree to full-heartedly. I don't understand those claiming Shane did the wrong thing here. It is every man for himself, and you cannot judge that action by our societies laws and moral standards. Otis was in no shape to survive himself, being to slow to outrun the Zombies. Shane had the best chance, and I look at this as the right call although it's off course horrible. That is the world they live in.

tex, on 27 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Shane attempted to rape Lori, yes - unequivocally bad on Shane.

Shane is basically stalking Lori at this point - bad for sure, but Lori is not blameless.

The rape is very bad, yes.

Secondly, you fail to acknowledge a person's right to say "no" here. Lori is pretty much blameless, since she has told Shane it can never be them again. It does not matter if they were together for a little while. Lori has said no to Shane several times, something he refuses to accept. Shane has no right stalking Lori regardless of the past. It's just not ok.

tex, on 27 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Shane is not evil. That is too strong words. Non the less, his actions does not cast him in the best of lights. Most of the actions people seem to react to when it comes to Shane, involves Rick and Lori. I can't believe anyone that defends him for THOSE actions. Lori is Rick's wife, Carl is Rick's son and Lori has decided she does not want to be with Shane. What's even to discuss here? What Shane has done regarding THIS matter is just wrong. You cannot justify what he is doing, because you got to be TWO people in a relationship. If Lori doesn't want it, Shane better respect that. No buts...

He is not the purely selfish monster many paint him to be. He is the most interesting and complex character on the show - both the character AND the actor are stealing scene after scene from the lead.

I wish/hope the show will keep these two "buddy cops" going along beyond this season. Perhaps a temporary parting of the ways - Shane ventures out into the world alone or with Andrea, maybe finds out how hard it is without Rick, and returns - but I definitely don't want to see Shane killed this season.

Hoping that happens with TWD Shane in some way. The dynamic and history between Rick and Shane is too interesting and Bernthal is too good an actor to leave now. I'd love to see Shane and Rick - never completely resolving their issues, still fighting like brothers - but at least "together" in some way, fighting off zombie hordes and Governors or whatever may be coming.

Dramatically, of course, I also can see the payoff of killing Shane now - but only if his true self - complex and not clearly pigeon holed as "the bad guy" is fully realized before his death. This is why if he has to go, I want him to go out heroicly in some way so that even the "Shane haters" have to rethink their image of Shane.

I just see this as long ramblings defending Shane. Yes, he is a good actor. Yes, he a cool character. That does not mean him fighting for Lori can be justified. Shane and Rick is not "fighting like brothers". Shane just has problems accepting Lori does not want to be with him. If you are thinking about "zombie-hunting fighting like brothers", then I agree, but not the fighting we've seen recently between them.

----------------------------------------------------

Know that I've spoke my mind regarding this, I just want to add I really like Shane. I more often than not agree with his thoughts and actions when it comes to the survival part. I LIKE Shane better than I like Rick in the show, but that doesn't stop me from seeing Shane's errors and faults. I get that it can be frustrating for Shane fans to ALWAYS defend their favorite versus the main protagonist, but you got to understand it's not without reason people side with Rick in many a case...

I also want to apologize to Merle for my harsh post in the other thread. It was uncalled for, but you are not easy to reason with Merle. Again, you don't deserved to be a ventilation for my frustration.

As this post got quite long, I also want to add I'm not a fluent english speaker. Sorry for any errors or similar that might make my post hard to understand or read.

Edited by Survivor, 27 February 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[backwoodsroamer]

Well Tex this is a great post, problem is you did too well. There's nothing left to discuss. You covered it all. I already know no man is a complete monster. Even Hitler loved his dog.

Edited by backwoodsroamer, 28 February 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[tex]

Survivor - good rebuttals.

Only thing I'll clarify is I in no way meant to imply Lori had culpability for the rape and I of course strongly believe she has a right to say NO and Shane must respect that.

What I meant by she is not blameless is the way she has selfishly taken away any possibility the baby is Shane's. She is way off base making unilateral declarations about paternity. Fathers have rights too.  She lost her right to decide the baby is Rick's when she willingly slept with Shane.

[Survivor]

Regarding the baby, I haven't quite made up my mind about the situation.  it's just really a tricky situation.

The one thing dragging me towards not allowing Shane to have anything to do with the baby is the following: Shane wants the whole cake. While he might be the father, that don't entitle him to become Loris boyfriend or anything to Carl. They are Rick's family, not Shane's no matter how much he wishes for them to be his.

Shane seem to feel entitled to it all. To Lori. To Carl. It just doesn't sit good with me.

[Lizeroo]

I'm going to keep this short.

Rick had many opportunities to kill Shane. He didn't. Furthermore, he allowed him to stay in the group knowing Shane could turn on him at any second.

Had Shane's aim not been total crap, he would have killed Rick with the wrench, and had every intention to. Shane was the instigator of the physical battle. Shane wants Lori, Carl and the baby and at this point doesn't care much for Rick.

Go Team Rick. Shane's still a douchelord.

[zedhatch]

tex, on 27 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

These two are starting to remind me a lot of Vic Mackey and Shane Vendrell from "The Shield" - though the dynamic is different - Mackey is what many believe TWD Shane is (selfish and dangerous), and Shield Shane was a lapdog following along who ultimately become in many ways MORE dangerous, but still held onto more of his humanity in a totally fucked up way (If you haven't seen The Shield you're missing one of the best TV shows of all time, seriously). And while The Shield was a wholly original work (no comic book), the INTENTION was for Shield Shane to be killed off early in the show. But the actor (Walton Goggins, honestly maybe the finest actor on the planet right now. Period. His work in The Shield is unparalleled), was SO GOOD and stole so many scenes from the lead actor and the character so quickly became the most talked about amongst the fans that the showrunners HAD TO keep him on for the entire run of the show.

Well just for context, a few TWD connections are Frank Durabount directed a few eps (including the ep where one of the characters does die) and Andrea was a Federal agent (for a made up agency) in the last season.  

But on to Vic and Shane vs Rick and Shane-THAT comparision is really apples and oranges.  I'll try not to spoil here, but Shane became a greater monster that was created by Vic (It's really hard to describe how without spoiling everything, but it's that final ep moment that really sums this up).

And I just have to point out a very WRONG fact in this post, Shield Shane was supposed to die in Season 4, NOT early in the show, there was only one death early on (and that was the first ep) and the show went Seven seasons, so it's more like in the middle.  Season 5 they kill off one of the stars (again not trying to spoil) and that is the point Sheld shane really begins going off the rails but it was all a direct result of him not dying in season 4 (Not at all comperable to TWD shane at this point).  Anyway point is season 4 is not EARLY in the show.

[tex]

zedhatch, on 28 February 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Well just for context, a few TWD connections are Frank Durabount directed a few eps (including the ep where one of the characters does die) and Andrea was a Federal agent (for a made up agency) in the last season.  

But on to Vic and Shane vs Rick and Shane-THAT comparision is really apples and oranges.  I'll try not to spoil here, but Shane became a greater monster that was created by Vic (It's really hard to describe how without spoiling everything, but it's that final ep moment that really sums this up).

And I just have to point out a very WRONG fact in this post, Shield Shane was supposed to die in Season 4, NOT early in the show, there was only one death early on (and that was the first ep) and the show went Seven seasons, so it's more like in the middle.  Season 5 they kill off one of the stars (again not trying to spoil) and that is the point Sheld shane really begins going off the rails but it was all a direct result of him not dying in season 4 (Not at all comperable to TWD shane at this point).  Anyway point is season 4 is not EARLY in the show.

zed, beg to differ on a few points:

Darabont directed one episode of season 6  of The Shield (episode 6 Chasing Ghosts) - no main characters died (though it was heavy into the investigation of a key character's death)

In addition to Laurie Holden (Olivia Murray on The Shield/Andrea on TWD), Glenn Mazzara (current showrunner for TWD) was executive producer and writer for much of The Shield (rising as high as third in command behind Shawn Ryan and Kurt Sutter at some point)

My key comparison is Shane to Shane - two characters who start out basically "good" or at least "acceptable" and we watch them slowly devolve into the monsters they become (certainly Shield Shane by end of the series is much worse than TWD Shane is now) - the difference is Shield Shane was feeding directly off the "badness" of his partner, Vic, wheras TWD Shane is revolting against the "goodness" in Rick.

As for when Shield Shane was supposed to be written off - there was apparently talk early on that either he or Ronnie Gardocki would die in the Season 1 finale. You're right there was also talk of killing him off in Season 4.

Anyway, just trivial minutae at this point - always glad to find another fan of The Shield