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Fear The Walking Dead Episode 407 ~ The Wrong Side Of Where You Now ~


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Poll: Rate this episode (23 member(s) have cast votes)

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#1
Serenity@sea

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Madison's decision to help an adversary has unintended consequences; John Dorie's life hangs in the balance.


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#2
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fingers crossed for John <3 him


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#3
Dead Gov Walking

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The only entertainment I get out of this show anymore is how laughably bad it is.

 

There's so much idiocy in this episode. From Madison's asinine idea that it'd be safer in a stadium surrounded by thousands of undead with seemingly no way out than it would be outside, to literally everything to do with the ending bit when the Vultures showed up with the zombies (why didn't they shoot into the cabins of the trucks the second they showed up? Why didn't they shoot the drivers the second they got out of the trucks? Why'd they let them let the zombies out? Why did Alicia and co let themselves get surrounded? Why didn't Alicia and co use their car to lure the zombies away? Why didn't Madison let them put the fire out? etc etc)

 

It's a goddamn comedy at this point

 

And lets not forget that this is the third time an antagonist on TWD shows has led a horde to the protagonists home (Wolves, Troy, Vultures). Fourth if you want to include the governor

Comic spoiler

Spoiler


Edited by Dead Gov Walking, 04 June 2018 - 02:25 AM.

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#4
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has maddison ever made a good decision in a crisis? Alicia, Nick and Lucia ought to have known better, but the apple clearly didn't fall to far from the tree and lucy would be out voted.

frankly using walkers a weapon is smart(provided they can round them back up or don't need a place's resources), the real question should be why don't any of the protagonists do it more often?


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#5
Deadpelican

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It feels like the show (and the main show as well) are being made for  binge watching on netflix,   Plot lines are constantly left hanging which is not a big deal when you are binge watching.  When you are a faithful viewer, trying to follow the show every week, it is infuriating. 

 

For example, Madison's fate is still left up in the air and will remain so for a few more months at least. 

 

I say all of  this because I can see how this show would   make more sense if I were binge watching. But I am not binge watching so it's aggravating. 

 

Writing a show in this manner means you are constantly waiting for the payoff and the payoff doesn't come until the end. 

 

CORRECTION: 

I actually thought tonight was the mid-season finale, but it looks like I was wrong. That's why I said we'd have to wait months. Maybe we won't.  Still stand by my observation that it feels as though this were designed for binge watching.


Edited by Deadpelican, 04 June 2018 - 03:22 AM.

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#6
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Wow these writers are retarded,how can three gunman/woman take on  the whole colony of vultures at the racetrack and win??? then we know the main vulture guy gets stabbed in the head after the firefight,but we have to watch the whole episode of  Madison and Co worry he will die,for me the viewer knowing well  he does not so no surprises it's just a complete retarded waste of and episode to show me all this unnecessary crap. I also cringed watching Madison pull down some flimsy  ply-board and a few 4x2's to "reinforce the stadium :wallmad:  ,and yes  her son and Co in the car just sitting there saying "we cannot hold them off much longer" lol  then drive away and let them follow,oh and shoot the fleet of bad guys  coming with loaded trucks of zombies Madison and Co already know because they counted all the banners...Jesus this show is shit i think i am just about done TY


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#7
Nareen

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There's so much idiocy in this episode. From Madison's asinine idea that it'd be safer in a stadium surrounded by thousands of undead with seemingly no way out than it would be outside, to literally everything to do with the ending bit when the Vultures showed up with the zombies (why didn't they shoot into the cabins of the trucks the second they showed up? Why didn't they shoot the drivers the second they got out of the trucks? Why'd they let them let the zombies out? Why did Alicia and co let themselves get surrounded? Why didn't Alicia and co use their car to lure the zombies away? Why didn't Madison let them put the fire out? etc etc)

 

I have to agree with all this. Maybe Madison was so determined to preserve this home that she lost her mind.  As for the rest, if the characters are just going to stand there and watch while an attack is mounted against them, maybe they don't deserve to survive.   I too was wondering why they didn't shoot the drivers or at least try to immobilize the trucks, especially the first one.   Alicia should have driven away as soon as the first truck arrived.  They knew this was an attack, they knew the weapon would be the dead.  

 

That being said, I did like this episode somewhat for the acting, the emotion and the drama.  

 

It's interesting that our protagonists have become so insanely savage that my sympathies lie, not with the vultures, but with their other antagonists:  Naomi, Morgan etc.  Alicia was once the sanest and  most reasonable of the group but now she's lost her mind it seems.  I wonder if Luciana would have killed Charlie. 

 

I really hope that both John and Naomi survive.  Both have issues but are somehow more relatible than most of the original cast.  


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#8
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I've really been enjoying this season, but this episode was a clunker.  So many plot holes.   Alicia and the original cast are basically the bad guys at this point.  And not sure when you have one brother as a potential hostage why they didn't try to bargain with the crazy brother.   He didn't even know he was in there.  Just weird.   It seemed rushed.  


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#9
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I have to agree with all this. Maybe Madison was so determined to preserve this home that she lost her mind.  As for the rest, if the characters are just going to stand there and watch while an attack is mounted against them, maybe they don't deserve to survive.   I too was wondering why they didn't shoot the drivers or at least try to immobilize the trucks, especially the first one.   Alicia should have driven away as soon as the first truck arrived.  They knew this was an attack, they knew the weapon would be the dead.  

 

That being said, I did like this episode somewhat for the acting, the emotion and the drama.  

 

It's interesting that our protagonists have become so insanely savage that my sympathies lie, not with the vultures, but with their other antagonists:  Naomi, Morgan etc.  Alicia was once the sanest and  most reasonable of the group but now she's lost her mind it seems.  I wonder if Luciana would have killed Charlie. 

 

I really hope that both John and Naomi survive.  Both have issues but are somehow more relatible than most of the original cast.  

I agree. This is the first episode I rated poor. FtWD has basically become a really bad horror movie where the entire plot relies on the characters making one stupid decision after another. Add on top of that these characters are not acting anything like the people we've come to know and it just compounds the absurdity. That Alicia would choose to go after Mel (who may or may not have been involved in the plot to take them down) when the stadium was in imminent danger is just ludicrous. It defies all reason that they didn't drive the car closer to the gate. That the entire group just sat there and passively watched it all go down makes zero sense.

I'm with you. If the entire original cast is wiped out, I wouldn't care that much either. I do like Morgan in this series better. He has finally found the right balance with his humanity. 


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#10
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Pretty bad one also.  Another stupid flash back like others have said.  Everyone is dead before we have to watch them die in the present.

before it was mentioned earlier in the thread. I was thinking to myself this show has become a show, that would be more enjoyable to dvr and watch the entire season at once (maybe).

 

I actually felt bad for the brother Mel.  So far, I have not seen anything he could have done to get the response he got from our current lead crew.  He even warned them, he had an argument with his brother about the horde, he tried to leave the gun battle early to not fight.  He actually seemed pretty cool.  There must be something he does very soon in the past that makes him a jerk.  But damm, he was actually becoming interesting.

 

Maybe the zombie vans were to far away to shoot?  They could have done something.

There is no explanation for them to sit in there car and wait to be surrounded, no reason at all.

 

I sure hope Madison is dead at this point.  If she comes back and is fine. here group is going to have a lot of explaining to do.


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#11
Aolain

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Hard for me to rate. As others have noted, Our Gang seems to have been infected with "The Stupid Disease." Also known as "Gimple Syndrome."
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#12
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i believe strand made the comment about 365 days having passed at the stadium, so i took at as at least a year having passed between the stadium and the dam.


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#13
Rague

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The last post is hopefully getting deleted. I had a lot of revisions to make and I reported it so that a mod would remove it.

 

Anyway, this episode:

  • 3 people took out what seemed to be 5-10 cars worth of armed mooks who knew they were there with the explicit purpose of murdering them, and those same 3 people were right out in the open with little cover. Guess which side won?

Thank god John getting shot gave everybody enough time to pause, reflect over their life decisions, call State Farm and OH SHIT THEY'RE SHOOTING AT US SHOOT BACK-

 

This doesn't even make sense from the Vulture's point of view. They were still scavenging, and their stated purpose is to steal resources from dying groups. Alisha, Strand, and Luciana only have guns and bullets so there's no reason to take them alive. At best the Vultures could have taken their weapons, but they're sticking to this "vulture" concept a little too closely if they really think waiting and approaching these people is a good idea over shooting and looting them. Why didn't the Vultures just shoot them?

 

Speaking of plot armor...

  • Strand wears a vest with grenades on the front. Not only does that seem illogical, but he, Luciana, and Alisha were waiting for this precise moment to strike at the Vultures - and he doesn't use a single grenade. (I'm no expert but wouldn't wearing grenades on your front be an open invitation for your enemy to blow you and your comrades to pieces?)

He takes the time to stop Alisha from chasing Lauranaomi to say, "she's one of them, we're going to get'em all." Okay then Strand, so why not use the grenades on your chest? That seems like it would have taken out a good number of them and saved you plenty of bullets.

  • I'm questioning why the Vultures got out of their cars in the first place. 

They knew this 2-woman-and-1-man team were specifically here to kill them. So why walk up, have a dramatic face-off, have Lauranaomi show up, and wait to open fire?

 

Not only that but they had these 3 people outnumbered and the Vultures still lost. At least the Saviors could actually back up their wannabe Mad Max routine by being smart and ambushing people?

  • Alisha's character development into a ruthless assassin is both delightful (because I love it when that stuff happens) and incredibly weird (because I feel like we missed the part where she became a ruthless assassin). 

Now she's doing things like balancing her gun against her arm (I'm no gun expert but that seems to me something they do in a lot of movies when they want the pro assassin to look cool with a heavy weapon) and shooting grenades at moving vehicles. This felt like a scene out of some kind of action flick, with Alicia towering over Naomi, cocking her weapon in the most phallic manner possible, a grenade falling to the ground dramatically. That's just a little too much for this kind of show - kind of like Daryl riding around blowing up canisters on his motorcycle.

 

To be fair it's the same thing they did with Carol, Daryl, and most of the Season 2-3 group - suddenly everybody was a badass unit of hardened survivors, but I was able to accept that more easily 1) because they were becoming competent survivors, and 2) because those two seasons didn't feel so far apart. We missed an entire winter with Rick's group and that's a lot of time to develop some common sense/survival tactics. We see it in how Rick has everybody conserve ammunition and pick off walkers from a fence. Heck, that's what makes that journey worthwhile - we actually see them take something that, later on, the Governor and his group believed couldn't be taken. 

 

The Diamond is just something Madison "did for her kids" at some point apparently. Do we even know how long it's been since the dam? 

  • Madison's fate feels like it's going to be a giant fart in the middle of a crowded room. Nick still deserves better than what he's currently getting.

I was honestly hoping Naomi was just going to shank her right there and leave, consequences be damned. I'm tired of this, I feel like they're going to play this death like it's a big shock and it really, really isn't at this point. It actually makes me appreciate Nick's death, you know, the death they should have framed the season around because I genuinely didn't see it coming and it resonated with me. Even 

 

I'd like this season more if Nick were the "main character" and we were experiencing the past timeline through his perspective. That would give his death a little more meaning. The imagery of Nick at peace in a bed of flowers and dying in the dirt with blood running out of his mouth, that was artsy. But now this season wants me to pretend Nick is in the background doing out of character things while Madison and Naomi are the central characters.  

  • Madison's character

I can't say this episode improved my opinion of her this season - she's such a copy of Season 4 Rick it's not even funny. She's walking around like a sheriff, hands gripping her belt, gun on her side, browbeating the bad guys, letting her kids run off and do stupid crap that compromises the group's safety" (and I'm only half-joking, this episode was almost exactly like Carl wandering off in the good old Season 2 days - here, Alicia and Nick go to save someone they don't have to save because of sudden moral obligations and apparently... I'll come back to this in "Dumb Moments."

 

Getting back to the way Madison carries herself now, at what point would she even have adopted this gait? Didn't she used to be a teacher, or a guidance counselor? Most guidance counselors I knew didn't typically walk around like that. I suppose she was on a ranch with a bunch of soldiers, but even then I find it hard to believe her posture would have changed this much.

 

She's got all this optimism and swagger allegedly from a vision she had last season. If this was their idea of making her more likable then the pitch just didn't land for me.

  • If you've read or skimmed this far, or were about to tune out, pay attention to this part because I'm about to call myself out here:

Now, I fear double standards so let me admit that this is pretty much what happened to Season 4 Rick. Someone pointed out to me that Madison had a massive moment of character development after the damn fell, during that trippy sequence with Travis.

 

So, like Rick, there was a family member drastically influencing Rick/Madison's personality, causing them to adopt a different role. Their mannerisms, their behavior changed as a result. I might rag on Madison suddenly being a carpenter/superhero optimist, but it's not that different from Rick suddenly being a farmer and refusing to carry his gun around. Initially I was going to say, "but Rick's arc made more SENSE because he like feels bad about negatively influencing Carl" but, really, on reflection, Rick's transformation and Madison's aren't that different.

 

And they could show flashbacks that give us a clearer picture of Madison's change in personality. 

  • Lauranaomi

Lauranaomi continues to be the mysterious female character that this season wants me to be more interested in than the Clarks, Strand, or Morgan. I've idea what I'm supposed to like about this character or where they're going with her. I've nothing against the actor but it feels like she's done better characters before. It's like her characters flips between "mopey" and "paranoid" and that's all they gave her.

  • Luciana

Why is she even here?

  • Morgan

Normally, I like Morgan and his philosophy. I think it's tragically short-sighted, yes, but in a way that enhances the plot and keeps the characters from being too samey (everybody is a ruthless killer and doesn't flinch at the sight of the walking dead). Bringing him back was one of my favorite parts of the Walking Dead's somewhat lackluster fifth season. But after watching this episode I've really got to throw up my hands.

 

On TWD seeing someone die would have, realistically, caused Morgan's PTSD to flare up and sent him off on a psychotic episode. Here, all of this death around him and he's just focused on John. It's not the worst development, maybe he's not as fragile as he was thanks to Carol and Jesus's influences, but at the same time I can't help but feel this is a totally different character who happens to have the same name. 

 

Why did they bring Morgan onto this show if he was only going to have any meaningful interaction with Nick for like ten seconds? I've got to hand it to them, the trailer really threw me off. I thought this season was going to have Madison and Morgan interact and become battle buddies or something.

  • Dumb moments

At this point it's just easier to list them.

 

  • Alisha takes out the ambulance and has Naomi in her sights. She's gunna kill her, she's got a gun, Lauranaomi is defenseless and out in the open annnnnd... Alicia decides to talk to her. This after spontaneously shooting her guyfriend who did nothing wrong to anyone. What is this show trying to say, that Alicia is so hateful and pissed that she'd kill anyone just to spite Naomi and wouldn't take a second to think it through, or is she stable (and stupid) enough to walk out of cover and talk to Naomi, giving her just enough time to swat the gun away and escape? This is the same crap we saw at the satellite array with Carol and Paula - rather than shoot the person, we walk closer to them and express our feelings so they can swat the gun out of her hands.
     
  • Luciana does the same sh't - sees Courtney, the girl who killed Nick, and slowly raises her gun to shoot then whips around to shoot another guy. I have to give Courtney credit her, she might be the smartest person on this show right now because she f'cking bails rather than stay and contemplate whether Luciana actually means to kill her.
     
  • Althea saying she's not part of this story and willingly watching the shootout. Apparently it's not her problem if people die in front of her. So then why the [BLIP]ing hell did she save John and Morgan in the first episode!? Was the LIGHTING bad and she knew she wouldn't be able to film their executions? Look I knew we've met some eccentric characters in the apocalypse but who the FRACK would film a shootout between two groups? Why the hell would you even stay there? What's to stop the Vultures from shooting her?
  • ** Side rant: She's not wrong. Althea feels like she's barely been part of this story. She's been "the wheels" for Morgan, John, and Team Alisha. She has a weird news fetish and I'm starting to get the feeling she was invented as a way to comment on Trumpmerica and "fake news." I mean, here's this journalist character whose obsessed, to the point of outright stupidity, with getting the truth. Notice how TWD conveniently introduced a Muslim character in the ill-fated 8th season?
  • *** Side-side rant: Because, you know, we spent 7 seasons of the apocalypse with 1 Asian and a rotating punch clock of black people, but 2017 is when we finally had a Muslism survivor who also happens to be very religious, to the point of outright stupidity like burying walkers and talking to strangers - evidently this guy was just lucky or blessed that he didn't run into a more ruthless group who'd have shot him dead as soon just as quickly
  • *** Yeah, I feel like Althea is that kind of character. Coincidentally we end up with a journalist who just has to have the truth. But then, maybe I'm wrong, because then I don't know what it says about honest journalism when she's being stupid and seemingly willing to film people getting massacred.
  • ** The gunshots are going to attract walkers and Althea wants to stick around and film? Good god. You know when I saw the season promo for this I wasn't caught up with Fear yet. I really thought she was going to be some badass biker character, what with the bladed knuckles. I don't think I've even seen her use those things since the promo.
     
  • The Vultures cannot aim. At all. They are worse than the Saviors. Period.
     
  • Althea rolls up on Alicia (who once again misses a perfect opportunity to shoot Lauranaomi because she has to glare at her first, despite Alicia's honed combat instincts making her an excellent marksman/assassin, you would think she'd just snap the gun up and shoot Lauranaomi, but nope, doesn't work that way) with her awesome SWAT humvee battle tank. In the seconds it took for the doors to open up and for Althea to aim those machine guns, Alicia could have shot Lauranaomi and farted off somewhere. I mean, why not? Bullets just seem to miss Alisha this season, like the first time she was going to shoot Lauranaomi and the Vulture had her dead to rights but the bullets just whiz by her feet).
     
  • Alisha and Nick just had to go out and save this a-hole because they just had to let Courtney know about his survival. My memory of this part's not great, but I remember the distinct feeling that Nick and Alisha were going outside to do something incredibly stupid (if selfless) and it was going to have consequences. 

This post is already massive and I don't have the energy to b-tch about the other half of the episode. This is just the first 10 minutes, not even I think. But suffice to say while I liked finally getting to see this long-awaited meet up between Team Alisha and the remaining Vultures, I don't think the battle made that much sense. We finally get to see what took down the Diamond but we're forced to wait another week to learn more, and I'm not sure these glimpses into the past have been anymore insightful or endearing than they were the last 7-8 weeks. I just want this story arc to be over so we can move onto whatever else they have planned.

 

Final Notes:

 

  • So, the guy that Nick killed in the "present" timeline was actually the Vulture who brought all the walkers to the stadium? I guess we know why Nick targeted this guy specifically now at least.
  • Meanwhile, the guy that was being cared for by Lauranaomi in the "past" timeline is the Vulture who was looking after Courtney? Now I missed this part but I thought he took Courtney and tried to leave before his brother (?) decided to siege the Diamond. So why is he back with them in the present? And I'm assuming he was in the ambulance and he was the one crawling from it, before Alisha bashed his head in.  
  • So, looking big picture here, honestly, the Vultures are ridiculous. And not the comical "biker gang" kind of ridiculous that the Saviors are. Ennis and Mel (thank you Wikipedia) are so insistent on that the baseball diamond will fall that they end up being the reason it collapses. Naomi's insistence that it wasn't safe was correct for the wrong reasons, and her sticking around with murderous idiots like Mel and Ennis makes me question her logic regardless.
  • ** But more to the point, they loosed a bunch of walkers at the stadium and started a fire - and guess what, they couldn't even get any of the resources they were going after. So what was the point of all of this? Ennis isn't very bright, that or he really overestimated how tough his group was.
  • ** At least in Negan's case we know he's a thug who doesn't necessarily think big picture, or didn't anyway, and clumsy as it might have been there was an effort to rationalize their actions. The Vultures have wasted everyone's time doomsaying, jeopardizing their own people as well as others, and then they ultimately caused all of the destruction they claimed would happen and doomed themselves in the process (seems like Alisha, Strand, and Luciana wiped them all out)
  • ** We would have had a far better season if they'd just tried to continue the story with the Proctors, and similarly violent gangs, instead of this weird, deceptive group of self-destructive raiders.
  • Salazar would have shot these people and called it a day. They need to bring him back. 

Edited by Rague, 04 June 2018 - 07:52 PM.

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#14
gilbert

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So who thinks Madison is in an underground bunker with a few other stadium folk?
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#15
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My leading guess is that Thanos snapped his fingers and she faded into dust right in front of everyone, along with several of the Vultures. Seeing no other rational explanation, Alisha, Strand, Nick, and Luciana blamed Charlie, Laura, Mel, and Ennis for the loss.


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#16
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who hopes maddison is dead?

 

 i do, i do!


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#17
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Would have voted Fair, but the confrontation at the stadium switched it to Poor.

Instead of driving through, or even around, a six-inch wide oil slick, stop outside safety and stare at it.

Park and wait while 5 trucks pull up and back towards you (all entries should be read as having "instead of just driving forward into safety"  attached.

Watch as one truck lights a small line of fire, which somehow continues to burn instead of dying down in a few seconds.

Watch as trucks unload walkers, which ignore their drivers, the other truck, or leaping flames which have been shown to attract walkers before.

Watch as walkers slooowly assemble around you, and only then say "Gee, we're surrounded".

Have people in stadium, armed with high-powered rifles in easy range, sit and watch as events gradually unfold.

Have people in stadium make no attempt to shout, bang on things, or fire guns to distract easily-distractable walkers.

 

I think we can detect the hand of the master here.


Edited by StrollingDead, 05 June 2018 - 02:06 AM.

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#18
Nareen

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The last post is hopefully getting deleted. I had a lot of revisions to make and I reported it so that a mod would remove it.

 

Anyway, this episode:

  • 3 people took out what seemed to be 5-10 cars worth of armed mooks who knew they were there with the explicit purpose of murdering them, and those same 3 people were right out in the open with little cover. Guess which side won?

Thank god John getting shot gave everybody enough time to pause, reflect over their life decisions, call State Farm and OH SHIT THEY'RE SHOOTING AT US SHOOT BACK-

 

This doesn't even make sense from the Vulture's point of view. They were still scavenging, and their stated purpose is to steal resources from dying groups. Alisha, Strand, and Luciana only have guns and bullets so there's no reason to take them alive. At best the Vultures could have taken their weapons, but they're sticking to this "vulture" concept a little too closely if they really think waiting and approaching these people is a good idea over shooting and looting them. Why didn't the Vultures just shoot them?

 

Speaking of plot armor...

  • Strand wears a vest with grenades on the front. Not only does that seem illogical, but he, Luciana, and Alisha were waiting for this precise moment to strike at the Vultures - and he doesn't use a single grenade. (I'm no expert but wouldn't wearing grenades on your front be an open invitation for your enemy to blow you and your comrades to pieces?)

He takes the time to stop Alisha from chasing Lauranaomi to say, "she's one of them, we're going to get'em all." Okay then Strand, so why not use the grenades on your chest? That seems like it would have taken out a good number of them and saved you plenty of bullets.

  • I'm questioning why the Vultures got out of their cars in the first place. 

They knew this 2-woman-and-1-man team were specifically here to kill them. So why walk up, have a dramatic face-off, have Lauranaomi show up, and wait to open fire?

 

Not only that but they had these 3 people outnumbered and the Vultures still lost. At least the Saviors could actually back up their wannabe Mad Max routine by being smart and ambushing people?

  • Alisha's character development into a ruthless assassin is both delightful (because I love it when that stuff happens) and incredibly weird (because I feel like we missed the part where she became a ruthless assassin). 

Now she's doing things like balancing her gun against her arm (I'm no gun expert but that seems to me something they do in a lot of movies when they want the pro assassin to look cool with a heavy weapon) and shooting grenades at moving vehicles. This felt like a scene out of some kind of action flick, with Alicia towering over Naomi, cocking her weapon in the most phallic manner possible, a grenade falling to the ground dramatically. That's just a little too much for this kind of show - kind of like Daryl riding around blowing up canisters on his motorcycle.

 

To be fair it's the same thing they did with Carol, Daryl, and most of the Season 2-3 group - suddenly everybody was a badass unit of hardened survivors, but I was able to accept that more easily 1) because they were becoming competent survivors, and 2) because those two seasons didn't feel so far apart. We missed an entire winter with Rick's group and that's a lot of time to develop some common sense/survival tactics. We see it in how Rick has everybody conserve ammunition and pick off walkers from a fence. Heck, that's what makes that journey worthwhile - we actually see them take something that, later on, the Governor and his group believed couldn't be taken. 

 

The Diamond is just something Madison "did for her kids" at some point apparently. Do we even know how long it's been since the dam? 

  • Madison's fate feels like it's going to be a giant fart in the middle of a crowded room. Nick still deserves better than what he's currently getting.

I was honestly hoping Naomi was just going to shank her right there and leave, consequences be damned. I'm tired of this, I feel like they're going to play this death like it's a big shock and it really, really isn't at this point. It actually makes me appreciate Nick's death, you know, the death they should have framed the season around because I genuinely didn't see it coming and it resonated with me. Even 

 

I'd like this season more if Nick were the "main character" and we were experiencing the past timeline through his perspective. That would give his death a little more meaning. The imagery of Nick at peace in a bed of flowers and dying in the dirt with blood running out of his mouth, that was artsy. But now this season wants me to pretend Nick is in the background doing out of character things while Madison and Naomi are the central characters.  

  • Madison's character

I can't say this episode improved my opinion of her this season - she's such a copy of Season 4 Rick it's not even funny. She's walking around like a sheriff, hands gripping her belt, gun on her side, browbeating the bad guys, letting her kids run off and do stupid crap that compromises the group's safety" (and I'm only half-joking, this episode was almost exactly like Carl wandering off in the good old Season 2 days - here, Alicia and Nick go to save someone they don't have to save because of sudden moral obligations and apparently... I'll come back to this in "Dumb Moments."

 

Getting back to the way Madison carries herself now, at what point would she even have adopted this gait? Didn't she used to be a teacher, or a guidance counselor? Most guidance counselors I knew didn't typically walk around like that. I suppose she was on a ranch with a bunch of soldiers, but even then I find it hard to believe her posture would have changed this much.

 

She's got all this optimism and swagger allegedly from a vision she had last season. If this was their idea of making her more likable then the pitch just didn't land for me.

  • If you've read or skimmed this far, or were about to tune out, pay attention to this part because I'm about to call myself out here:

Now, I fear double standards so let me admit that this is pretty much what happened to Season 4 Rick. Someone pointed out to me that Madison had a massive moment of character development after the damn fell, during that trippy sequence with Travis.

 

So, like Rick, there was a family member drastically influencing Rick/Madison's personality, causing them to adopt a different role. Their mannerisms, their behavior changed as a result. I might rag on Madison suddenly being a carpenter/superhero optimist, but it's not that different from Rick suddenly being a farmer and refusing to carry his gun around. Initially I was going to say, "but Rick's arc made more SENSE because he like feels bad about negatively influencing Carl" but, really, on reflection, Rick's transformation and Madison's aren't that different.

 

And they could show flashbacks that give us a clearer picture of Madison's change in personality. 

  • Lauranaomi

Lauranaomi continues to be the mysterious female character that this season wants me to be more interested in than the Clarks, Strand, or Morgan. I've idea what I'm supposed to like about this character or where they're going with her. I've nothing against the actor but it feels like she's done better characters before. It's like her characters flips between "mopey" and "paranoid" and that's all they gave her.

  • Luciana

Why is she even here?

  • Morgan

Normally, I like Morgan and his philosophy. I think it's tragically short-sighted, yes, but in a way that enhances the plot and keeps the characters from being too samey (everybody is a ruthless killer and doesn't flinch at the sight of the walking dead). Bringing him back was one of my favorite parts of the Walking Dead's somewhat lackluster fifth season. But after watching this episode I've really got to throw up my hands.

 

On TWD seeing someone die would have, realistically, caused Morgan's PTSD to flare up and sent him off on a psychotic episode. Here, all of this death around him and he's just focused on John. It's not the worst development, maybe he's not as fragile as he was thanks to Carol and Jesus's influences, but at the same time I can't help but feel this is a totally different character who happens to have the same name. 

 

Why did they bring Morgan onto this show if he was only going to have any meaningful interaction with Nick for like ten seconds? I've got to hand it to them, the trailer really threw me off. I thought this season was going to have Madison and Morgan interact and become battle buddies or something.

  • Dumb moments

At this point it's just easier to list them.

 

  • Alisha takes out the ambulance and has Naomi in her sights. She's gunna kill her, she's got a gun, Lauranaomi is defenseless and out in the open annnnnd... Alicia decides to talk to her. This after spontaneously shooting her guyfriend who did nothing wrong to anyone. What is this show trying to say, that Alicia is so hateful and pissed that she'd kill anyone just to spite Naomi and wouldn't take a second to think it through, or is she stable (and stupid) enough to walk out of cover and talk to Naomi, giving her just enough time to swat the gun away and escape? This is the same crap we saw at the satellite array with Carol and Paula - rather than shoot the person, we walk closer to them and express our feelings so they can swat the gun out of her hands.
     
  • Luciana does the same sh't - sees Courtney, the girl who killed Nick, and slowly raises her gun to shoot then whips around to shoot another guy. I have to give Courtney credit her, she might be the smartest person on this show right now because she f'cking bails rather than stay and contemplate whether Luciana actually means to kill her.
     
  • Althea saying she's not part of this story and willingly watching the shootout. Apparently it's not her problem if people die in front of her. So then why the [BLIP]ing hell did she save John and Morgan in the first episode!? Was the LIGHTING bad and she knew she wouldn't be able to film their executions? Look I knew we've met some eccentric characters in the apocalypse but who the FRACK would film a shootout between two groups? Why the hell would you even stay there? What's to stop the Vultures from shooting her?
  • ** Side rant: She's not wrong. Althea feels like she's barely been part of this story. She's been "the wheels" for Morgan, John, and Team Alisha. She has a weird news fetish and I'm starting to get the feeling she was invented as a way to comment on Trumpmerica and "fake news." I mean, here's this journalist character whose obsessed, to the point of outright stupidity, with getting the truth. Notice how TWD conveniently introduced a Muslim character in the ill-fated 8th season?
  • *** Side-side rant: Because, you know, we spent 7 seasons of the apocalypse with 1 Asian and a rotating punch clock of black people, but 2017 is when we finally had a Muslism survivor who also happens to be very religious, to the point of outright stupidity like burying walkers and talking to strangers - evidently this guy was just lucky or blessed that he didn't run into a more ruthless group who'd have shot him dead as soon just as quickly
  • *** Yeah, I feel like Althea is that kind of character. Coincidentally we end up with a journalist who just has to have the truth. But then, maybe I'm wrong, because then I don't know what it says about honest journalism when she's being stupid and seemingly willing to film people getting massacred.
  • ** The gunshots are going to attract walkers and Althea wants to stick around and film? Good god. You know when I saw the season promo for this I wasn't caught up with Fear yet. I really thought she was going to be some badass biker character, what with the bladed knuckles. I don't think I've even seen her use those things since the promo.
     
  • The Vultures cannot aim. At all. They are worse than the Saviors. Period.
     
  • Althea rolls up on Alicia (who once again misses a perfect opportunity to shoot Lauranaomi because she has to glare at her first, despite Alicia's honed combat instincts making her an excellent marksman/assassin, you would think she'd just snap the gun up and shoot Lauranaomi, but nope, doesn't work that way) with her awesome SWAT humvee battle tank. In the seconds it took for the doors to open up and for Althea to aim those machine guns, Alicia could have shot Lauranaomi and farted off somewhere. I mean, why not? Bullets just seem to miss Alisha this season, like the first time she was going to shoot Lauranaomi and the Vulture had her dead to rights but the bullets just whiz by her feet).
     
  • Alisha and Nick just had to go out and save this a-hole because they just had to let Courtney know about his survival. My memory of this part's not great, but I remember the distinct feeling that Nick and Alisha were going outside to do something incredibly stupid (if selfless) and it was going to have consequences. 

This post is already massive and I don't have the energy to b-tch about the other half of the episode. This is just the first 10 minutes, not even I think. But suffice to say while I liked finally getting to see this long-awaited meet up between Team Alisha and the remaining Vultures, I don't think the battle made that much sense. We finally get to see what took down the Diamond but we're forced to wait another week to learn more, and I'm not sure these glimpses into the past have been anymore insightful or endearing than they were the last 7-8 weeks. I just want this story arc to be over so we can move onto whatever else they have planned.

 

Final Notes:

 

  • So, the guy that Nick killed in the "present" timeline was actually the Vulture who brought all the walkers to the stadium? I guess we know why Nick targeted this guy specifically now at least.
  • Meanwhile, the guy that was being cared for by Lauranaomi in the "past" timeline is the Vulture who was looking after Courtney? Now I missed this part but I thought he took Courtney and tried to leave before his brother (?) decided to siege the Diamond. So why is he back with them in the present? And I'm assuming he was in the ambulance and he was the one crawling from it, before Alisha bashed his head in.  
  • So, looking big picture here, honestly, the Vultures are ridiculous. And not the comical "biker gang" kind of ridiculous that the Saviors are. Ennis and Mel (thank you Wikipedia) are so insistent on that the baseball diamond will fall that they end up being the reason it collapses. Naomi's insistence that it wasn't safe was correct for the wrong reasons, and her sticking around with murderous idiots like Mel and Ennis makes me question her logic regardless.
  • ** But more to the point, they loosed a bunch of walkers at the stadium and started a fire - and guess what, they couldn't even get any of the resources they were going after. So what was the point of all of this? Ennis isn't very bright, that or he really overestimated how tough his group was.
  • ** At least in Negan's case we know he's a thug who doesn't necessarily think big picture, or didn't anyway, and clumsy as it might have been there was an effort to rationalize their actions. The Vultures have wasted everyone's time doomsaying, jeopardizing their own people as well as others, and then they ultimately caused all of the destruction they claimed would happen and doomed themselves in the process (seems like Alisha, Strand, and Luciana wiped them all out)
  • ** We would have had a far better season if they'd just tried to continue the story with the Proctors, and similarly violent gangs, instead of this weird, deceptive group of self-destructive raiders.
  • Salazar would have shot these people and called it a day. They need to bring him back. 

 

Just a few comments because I agree with a lot of what you said, though some of your issues, like how Mel met up with the Vultures again, don't bother me.

 

The little girl's name is Charley and I thought that Lucianna held back from killing her because she's a child; IMO any non-psycho adult would at least hesitate. Charley was not even dangerous at that moment because IIRC she was unarmed. An aside: why are so many girls and women on television named Charley?  I don't think I've ever met someone so named in real life.

 

This story was always Madison's, not Travis' or Nick's though they were of course major characters.  Comparing Madison to Rick in S4 is a good thought because like Rick, she went a bit too far in the opposite direction from her previous self.   I kind of feel that Madison is still alive but it wouldn't shock me if she's dead.  Obviously Alicia, Victor and Lucianna don't really know what happened since they thought Naomi was dead.

 

I like Naomi and find her interesting because, though she's damaged and afraid to connect with people, she still cares enough to use her skills to help them.  I was glad to see a bit of darkness in John, because otherwise he's too good to be true.

 

I like Morgan on Fear even though he's back in his All Life is Precious mode. I like how he was recovered enough to claim John as a friend, though who wouldn't.   I'm glad he saved Charley, who likely fits the definition of a child soldier and shouldn't be punished like an adult.  Unlike Lizzie she appears to be sane and remorseful about her actions; maybe she can be salvaged.  

 

I liked how Morgan snapped Al out of her aloofness and made her help John.  I suspect all that filming is a way of distancing herself from the world of the ZA even as she pursues people's stories.  She can tell herself she's just the chronicler, not a participant.  

 

On Fear we've jumped ahead somewhere between two and three years, taking into account Morgan's weeks or months of travelling.  The Clarks and Strand had been at the stadium at least 365 days when the season began, leaving them a year or more to get past the dam and make it to Texas.  

 

I suspect the producers of Fear get Ruben Blades when they can; he's got a lot of stuff going on and maybe he isn't always available.


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#19
cornjob

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This episode was bad. 

 

The tactics of the shoot-out were asinine on both sides. This is not how people who don't want to die act, when faced with armed resistance. Its like an 80s Rambo movie.

 

The assault on the Stadium, the compounded idiotic decisions were also hard to ignore. Hey, why doesn't Nick just get out and amble through the dead like he usually does? What happened to that guy? Did they suddenly run out of gas? Even if they didn't think they could get into the stadium, they could just drive away. 

 

How the heck did they find the injured Vulture in the first place?  The guy was miles away. How do they have any idea where he went? There's just one road (I guess two, with the 'county road') that goes there? So, its a stadium in the middle of nowhere?

 

This season has had some promising moments. The new characters are more balanced and sympathetic. The relationship with John and Naomi provides interest. But its starting to feel like a cheap tactic when they first tease us with her death, then with his injury/death. This is what soap operas do. But that is because they substitute roller coaster contrived drama for solid storytelling. Why can't I just watch because the story is interesting? 

 

You know what would have been a better episode?  When the three amigos are looking backward at John laying shot on the ground, if the Vultures just mowed them down with a quick burst. BAM! Alicia, Strand and Luciana are dead. Roll credits. I would be more excited to watch the next episode than I have been since the original premier. It would be completely unexpected and open the story WIDE up. 


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#20
cornjob

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Another thought.  Its hard for me to go from the scene with the assault on the stadium, to a scene where the mustachioed brother is loading pimentos not thinking his life is in danger. OF COURSE Nick would try to kill him. 


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#21
Stan

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I voted Fair. It really is almost Poor, but didn't quite get the grade. The characters are acting all spaghetti western this season, shooting from the hip in plain sight, being forgiving of people trying constantly to kill them, etc.

 

At least the flashbacks are merging enough with the present that I can see the puzzle image, which is less annoying than almost any other time during this season.

 

Madison is still making poor decisions, and then changing them only when a poorer one becomes available. Nick's bleeding heart is also just a pain to watch.

Naomi is at least showing a little more character as we try to discern why she bailed on them, I am still enjoying Journalist Lady too.

Far and away, with all the warnings, with all the knowledge of the Vultures belief systems, with the foreknowledge of the type of attack that was going to be used AND a reluctant informant, they still did NO prep work to defend themselves other than a wooden barricade?! No traps outside the stadium? Nothing to disable attacking vehicles? Just let them show up, lay their trap, and spring it? I thought some potential existed with Nick and the others on the bad guy side of the gate, but they just sat their too and waited to be surrounded. It was ridiculous to watch, my son's cartoons get it more right than that.

Walkers are also not being walkers as much anymore. They literally just nailed a board to block a walker at the gate, and then open it to let the car out to search...and no walker or walkers near by.

Madison is also not proving to be much of a leader of people still. Push comes to shove she'll bail on them all to try and get to her kids...but she won't let anyone else assume the leadership role besides her. Strand is no better and even more indecisive. I'd want to bail and go too, honestly.

The timeline is still not working for me. Fear starts at the outbreak- we have an undefined amount of time between dam breach and stadium plus one year.  We know TWD had at least a two year head start and now we're up to speed...plus? Two year gap plus Morgan's hiking time just leaves too much space in between where we were and where we are now to care that much, especially knowing some of them are dead.

I'm guessing walkers walk through burning oil which magically has the properties of napalm and they set the wooden barricades on fire. Everyone shoots dies and is turned who was a supernumerary this season. This causes stadium to fall, maybe Madison is holed up inside, maybe she's doing a Sophia in the barn. Who knows?

I do know it's been comically two dimensional all season, like the stadium writ on every level. I've never been to a stadium without multiple access points by road and inside, but we only have the one? And if we do only have the one, how is it that it is indefensible?! I can see where this started as a writer's meeting and development in a real positive way, until they started getting rushed and had to ignore critical and real things we'd notice. Maybe around then an executive came down with a memo stating people LOVE fractured time jumps so that should be a priority because, you know, marketing research and insider magazine articles...and oh yeah- we're adding Morgan so write him in.

Honest to God, this season had a ton of potential in the base ideas and developments, there was just no one controlling it and keeping it on point.

Fair, I do want to see next week...but I think they're just jumping and re jumping the shark for us at this point.


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#22
Zombie_killer

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I tend to let most ridiculous things in this programme go over my head and not let them annoy me.  However, even I couldn't stretch to that in this one.  It was just too ridiculous - they knew that the brother was coming with trucks full of walkers to crash into them.  They were warned well in advance and should have just done the sensible thing and leave.  They could also have contacted the brother and told him that they had Mel and Charlie inside the walls as it might have stopped them from doing it.   However, they didn't do either of those things so lets move on.  They then got warned by Nick and Alisha that the trucks were on their way so they had a chance to either run then or just get tons of them on all walls and ready to shoot.  They didn't do any of that and then when the trucks - that they KNEW were full of walkers intended to kill them all - arrived and the drivers got out they all just stood around and allowed them to get out and open the back of the trucks to let them out.   Why on earth wouldn't you shoot them as they drive up?  Why wouldn't they shoot them as they all got out of their trucks to let the walkers out?  Why on earth would Nick and Alisha sit there in their car just waiting to be surrounded by either the bad guys or the walkers?? They could have just swung round and driven away - it's not like they were not wanting to abandon their mum etc by driving off because they couldn't help them anyway.  All they did was endanger themselves and those they cared about who decided they should walk out of the stadium into hundreds of the dead to rescue them.  It was the most ridiculous episode I've ever seen - none of it made sense, it was just laughable.  

 

Aside from how stupid this episode was, the whole season so far has been a crap idea.  When they try to make us scared that any of the characters could die just doesn't work - we know they won't die because we have seen them all alive in the first episode.   By doing that they have taken away any tension in the whole season.  It was a really stupid idea and I'm pretty shocked they decided to do it that way. 


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#23
bully8

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I just got around to watching this. I just had to vote good, mostly because of the long awaited unleashing of the stored zombies by the Vultures. I do agree with most of the criticism in other posts. When the caravan passed Nick and Alicia, I was thinking "go after them and attack. Shoot out the truck tires. Shoot the drivers. ". Madison should have told the kids to drive off when they started releasing the Zombies. There was really no way for the kids to get inside safely at that point. And yes, they should have been shooting the drivers as the caravan rolled in, before they could release the Zombies.
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#24
Nareen

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......

 

Aside from how stupid this episode was, the whole season so far has been a crap idea.  When they try to make us scared that any of the characters could die just doesn't work - we know they won't die because we have seen them all alive in the first episode.   By doing that they have taken away any tension in the whole season.  It was a really stupid idea and I'm pretty shocked they decided to do it that way. 

 

I don't agree with this.  I think the the interest, even tension created by the Before scenes is in what ultimately happened to make  Alicia etc. the obsessive savages they are in the Now.  It's not all about who survives a specific situation. 

 

That being said, I agree that the only suspense in Alicia and Nick being stuck in that zombie surrounded car was in how they got out of the situation.

 

Who wasn't shocked when Nick was killed in the Now?


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#25
omegaman

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I voted good. With it's flaws I still enjoyed the episode. I enjoy this show much in the way I enjoyed shows back in the day such as the A-Team. Didn't make much sense  (like come'on, how did BA not know they were tricking him to go on the plan again?) but shit blew up real good.  I call it my potato chip show. I know the chips are bad for me but I can't stop eating them. 

 

This is not to say I would not LOVE for the show to be written better. I really hunger for a well written post apoc drama to be born that uses real world physics and really shows how you would really need to survive. But it's ok that TWD/FTWD is not. Light entertainment is also good.

 

The personal interactions such as Nareen pointed out were really good and what keeps the show compelling for me.  Al's "I'm a chick with layers" made me chuckle.

 

Perhaps you or I would have done the smart thing. I know I would have used those grenades and caught those trucks out on the road before they got to the stadium. But this show isn't about smart people. It's about dumb people. That's what's compelling for me. How do these stupid people survive? 

 

The time jumps are no problem to me. Knowing Nick and Alicia are alive in the future doesn't spoil the moment they are trapped in the car. I'm interested enough to wait and see how they get out of that situation even knowing somehow they do.

 

The really stupid tactics are what prevent me from saying this was an excellent episode but it was good enough for the hour to pass quickly and for me to want to see what happens next week.


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