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Rick, Negan And What Is Coming In Twd: A Rant

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#1
Nareen

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I posted this here instead of in the review thread because it’s so long.  I know no spoilers; this is what I deduce from what has been happening in recent episodes of TWD.

 

In my opinion, the end game in TWD S8 is the survival of Negan after the AOW, probably because he is so kkkool and Gimple  etc. are fan boys.  However, they have realized that they went too far in making Negan the worst of the worst and are now trying to pull back, even if it means killing Carl and twisting other characters into unnatural shapes to do so.

 

They are pushing Rick far into the dark side to try to make him morally equivalent to Negan, as when he reneged on his word and killed those Saviors, even the ones who helped him.   That’s so that when Rick reads Carl’s letter, he will come to think that he and Negan are not so different.  It will be all the more shocking when he has a change of heart and a complete reversal of direction, and makes an impassioned speech to the assembled Allies about coming back, forgiveness and mercy, living together and moving on to a brighter future.  Everyone will be reduced to tears and mush and forgiveness, Michonne will beam proudly through her tears like a good wifey, and the result will be that Negan will be the only Savior to survive. 

 

They are trying to humanize Negan and make him seem less crazy murderous than Rick so we will tolerate or even applaud his ultimate survival – because, you know, he’s not so bad. They will blame the murders of the Librarians and the Oceanside men, the attack on Daryl, Sasha and Abraham, the attempted assassination of Gregory and the like on renegades like Simon who disobeyed orders.  Denise and the escapee from the Sanctuary will be Dwight’s fault.  Maybe Negan will read his own letter, see the light and embrace the good, and he and Rick will hug like brothers.  Poor Daryl.

 

They want us to forget our introduction to Negan in which he gleefully and horrifically murdered Glenn and Abraham, broke Rick by almost maiming Carl and generally abused the whole group.   They want us to forget about the first Dr. Carson and the furnace, Dwight and another young man and the iron, Sherry and other women in sexual servitude, the murders of Olivia and Spencer,  and the torture of Daryl.  Not to mention enslavement and extortion.  I’m surprised that they even allowed Negan to order Simon to kill even one of the garbage people as punishment, though we know that’s a long standing policy.  I guess the garbage people don’t count.

 

So we’ll see if I’m right.  I hope I'm wrong.  If the former, maybe crazy Morgan won't get the memo and will kill Negan anyway before his disappearance.

 


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#2
Partyof5

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This is exactly where I fear this story is going.  I think Rick going back on his word and murdering the same Saviors who saved him twice in a matter of seconds may be my jump the shark moment.  As I mentioned in another thread, after S7E1 this has been an alternate universe.  I'm not buying Negan as the misunderstood leader who is just doing what he thinks is best for the group as a whole.  I don't buy Rick dipping to his lowest point ever because Carl died saving someone else.  Rick didn't need to read Carl's letter to him to know what he wanted.  He told him while he was dying. 

 

I also hope this theory is wrong, but in some ways the damage has already been done to this show.  They made Rick the villain.  The same Rick this show began with.   


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#3
kombat

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Negan will not be accepted as a part of the community. Definitely not right away, maybe never.

 

We always thought he'd get put into Morgan's jail cell, but we don't know right now what the state of Alexandria is in. Is the cell or even the house it's in even there anymore?

 

I say he ends up in a cell of some sort which won't bother me.


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#4
Alessia2

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I am so afraid this will be the future we get. :( And feel upset about it if so. It seems so clear that there probably is hardly no other way.

I´m not too excited for that but it will still not make me stop watching. In some way I might even prefer such ending, only if we didn´t yet know how Negan really is, it might even work! I don´t like killing, but have to say I felt happy Jared got what he deserved. I will be happy when Simon is done, too.

But even still I might like this new Negan in general, I don´t like it as he has been introduced and reminded us time by time that he isn´t a nice guy. He only likes to think he is such a "savior", reasonable and understanding. That is one part of Negan´s brainwashing; he has no actual need to kill or hurt anyone "to teach a lesson". :( He keeps saying "oh, I don´t enjoy this but I just have to do this to make you understand how we all can live in peace and harmony" - really? For sure he doesn´t have to burn the faces (or whole doctors) or bash heads down with Lucille. Who makes him to do it? Like he wouldn´t remember he made the rules himself. Someone wants to leave, they´re hunted down and killed... "Wives" are making their fair decisions and have to live by the path they choosed... Like they really had a chance from the beginning. :( Plus taking that fact Negan keeps telling us (and we see it even without telling it!) that he enjoys to kill, he enjoys to see others being under his power, kneeling in front of him. He is a bully and enjoys seeing others hurt their feelings for what he says. The list goes on and on. :(

As I said in other thread, I will accept his change of heart when he gives all his people equal rights and real freedom to choose. If he would really have been so touched for everything that he would understand how badly he has done so far, and showing that in his act afterwards, maybe then I´d take it. For me, it would be a dream to see everyone living happily together, hugging and smiling and so. ;) But it wouldn´t really fit the character and would feel so unrealistic it would bother even me!

Being captured is probably best we are going to get. I think they´d do wisely if they cut off his tongue. ;) He does more damage with it than with Lucille... And he talks himself out from any situation, being so clever and cunning. I don´t understand how the people haven´t got that yet but always stop killing him and start to listen his words...


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#5
Aolain

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I certainly hope that Negan is knocked off.

 

Allowing Negan to live (and I agree they might be trying to achieve some moral equivalency with Rick) would be nonsensical.

 

Let me give an example:

 

Would we have allowed Hitler to live? After all he loved dogs, was a non-smoker, non-drinker, and a vegetarian. His junior staff, aides, secretaries all loved him. He was known as a kind and considerate boss--to these junior folks. He loved art and was devoted to his mother.

 

No.  Regardless of Hitler's "fine qualities" he was Hitler and he ordered the most horrendous crimes to be committed.

 

If the show has its characters say "well, Negan isnt so bad, we have done bad things as well," and "look, Negan loved his wife and just wants to save people." it has devolved into the most horrific kind of moral equivalency and certainly has "jumped the shark" when one thinks of all his victims, living and dead.

 

If Negan is rehabilitated, one might as well say "Look, Hitler just wanted a united, peaceful, and prosperous Europe........"


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#6
kombat

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I don't think that's a good comparison. To our knowledge, the mass killings have been done by Simon and not on Negan's orders.


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#7
cornjob

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If there is a redemption arc for Negan, I would think Gabriel would be a key figure. They've already had scenes together. 

 

But the distinction between a redeemed Negan and one that is simply allowed to live after the war is important. Being imprisoned indefinitely doesn't mean that he has been forgiven. 

 

Trying to draw a moral equivalence between Rick and Negan is a pretty tortured comparison. 


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#8
Alessia2

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I sort of agree with Aolain here. A bit extreme example, but gets the message through well. The showmakers want to make us think "oh well, it was Simon all the time behind all the cruelty". No, he wasn´t. Negan isn´t after saving people as much as making a "kingdom" of his own where he only is in charge and worshipped by the tyrannized folk of his. He wants to dominate and play with destinies of other peoples. 

It is part of his imaginarious happy kingdom that he thinks this is best for everyone. He doesn´t really think what would make others happy but what makes him happy...

And I don´t believe Negan actually really loved his wife. He has already told to Gabriel he was bad husband and cheated his wife, this is all reflection of his guilt and shame of what he felt after Lucille had died and realising he had let her down in so many ways. Maybe in that point he thought he loved her and wanted to change everything, but there wasn´t chance for it anymore. Still the way he talks to the bat Lucille, acts towards it and asks others to treat it like a lady, means he is mixed up in his head some way.

I see Negan as delusional person that is not yet able to face the actual reality. If Ezekiel is playing an act of a king, I think Negan is living his dream rather than playing it... Maybe in some moments, like when he was talking with or about Carl, he was closest to the actual man he is and not the odd character he wants now to be? I think it would be interesting to see him stripped off all the facade he keeps showing, as we have seen done in this season for Ezekiel and Jadis? :) Maybe when we get past the manipulating, twisted bastard, we´ll get to see a man which we are able to forgive? But like this, no. 


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#9
Nareen

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I don't think that's a good comparison. To our knowledge, the mass killings have been done by Simon and not on Negan's orders.

 

 

That is certainly the way it will be presented now that we are in this Negan redemption arc.   But Negan is right that it is on him.

 

Regardless, as I said above, Negan is still the guy who gleefully and horrifically murdered Glenn and Abraham, degraded and broke Rick by almost maiming Carl and generally abused the whole group, threw the first Dr. Carson in a furnace, ironed the faces of Dwight and at least one other guy, inflicted sexual servitude on several women, killed Spencer, had Olivia killed and Daryl tortured and enslaved and extorted from several communities.

 

A couple of weeks ago Negan ordered Simon to murder one of the garbage people.  That's no better than ordering their complete extinction.

 

I actually wouldn't care if Negan lived as long as he was gone, gone, gone.  

 

Anyway, Carl's death has cracked, if not destroyed, my remaining loyalty to TWD.   The last few lousy episodes havn't helped.  


Edited by Nareen, 04 April 2018 - 01:21 AM.

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#10
mosher

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The last survivor of the library group was part of the trap for Rick, which very strongly implies that Negan would know the library was wiped out.

That said, clearly they are going to try to convince us that Negan doesn't do that.

No, that's not Negan.

Who is Negan?

A man who holds slaves, kills people who might chose to leave his 'safety', rapes people, burns faces off, smashes the heads in of loved ones and takes pictures, tortures children, etc.

He runs a protection racket and has no redeeming qualities.

Obviously the people in charge realize they screwed up their own story and are trying hard to get us to accept the 'good' in saving Negan.


Now, I like Rick's arc. I like him killing the Saviors who helped him. It makes sense for him to do that. It was wrong, but it made character sense. And it in no way makes him an equivalent to Negan. He can take Carl's message to heart, learn from the example of Siddiq, learn from the past examples of Tara. Learn from Morgan saving him in episode one. He can learn to be generous again. He can do all of that quite effectively without saving Negan.

And should he be wrong enough to save Negan- then PLEASE let Maggie put him down.

So many redeemable people. Negan needs to go.

 


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#11
naossano

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Spoilers about comics Negan's fate.

 

Spoiler


Edited by naossano, 04 April 2018 - 08:50 PM.

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#12
Nareen

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Spoilers about comics Negan's fate.

 

Spoiler

 

I am aware in general terms of what happens to Negan in the comic.  And I don't care.  None of those reasons are convincing to me, given the horrors that Negan has inflicted and the situation of the survivors of the three communities.  In the real world, I don't believe in capital punishment but a sociopathic sadist like Negan is too dangerous to keep around.   Like Lizzie was.

 

Plus Negan bores and annoys me.  


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#13
mosher

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I am aware in general terms of what happens to Negan in the comic.  And I don't care.  None of those reasons are convincing to me, given the horrors that Negan has inflicted and the situation of the survivors of the three communities.  In the real world, I don't believe in capital punishment but a sociopathic sadist like Negan is too dangerous to keep around.   Like Lizzie was.

 

Plus Negan bores and annoys me.  

If they had an adequate prison and the means to believe they have actually attained a civilization that would remain secure for more than a year than I'd save anyone. I am alos opposed to capital punishment.

But I'm more opposed to my friends and family dying and in the society Rick is in saving Negan is aggressively stupid.


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#14
Boota

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I've known the Negan storyline since before he was in the show and I never liked it. It is too unrealistic. NO ONE would allow him to live. And even if everyone else somehow did, Maggie wouldn't. Not the way she is now especially. 


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"We went together like Kennedys and head wounds."--Lenny Kapowski, Mr. Undesirable

#15
kombat

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I'm not going to tell you you're wrong. It's your opinion, and I have mine. I didn't have a problem with Negan's arc in the comic, and if it follows similar in the show I won't have a problem with that either. If S9 starts and Negan is a member of the community helping with the gardening like in the vision we saw, yes that would be preposterous. I would still watch, but it would be hard to swallow.


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#16
jaco

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And then there's the jail cell built by Morgan for no reason.  I assumed for two years it was meant for Negan, but I'm skeptical it ever appears again.


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#17
Jgreenwood

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And then there's the jail cell built by Morgan for no reason.  I assumed for two years it was meant for Negan, but I'm skeptical it ever appears again.

 

They'll probably show them building a new one and never even mention the old one. Or they'll put him in the pathetic excuse for a cell they're using at the hilltop.


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#18
mosher

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They'll probably show them building a new one and never even mention the old one. Or they'll put him in the pathetic excuse for a cell they're using at the hilltop.

That would almost be funny, with how irresponsible it is to spare Negan in the first place, to have them compound that with their unguarded 'prison' that can't withstand a moderate breeze.


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#19
naossano

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As a side note, as much as i would like Negan alive, i don't think they can afford JDM much longer. Beside,it is entirely possible that they fail to do the redemption arc properly.


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#20
World War Pee

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Jeffery Dean Morgan was on TV talking about Negan vs Rick. He made a interesting comment: "everyone who has made it this far in this apocalypse has done some very horrible things. If we had been following Negan for 8 years we would be on Negan's side and Rick would be horrible"

 

The Negan bits are in the last minute of the interview.

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=54332380

 

I have to admit I do like Negan, and moreover JDM playing Negan. He's great.

But I went back and watched season 7 episode 1. The Abe and Glenn deaths. Can't get over that.

 

And there is no way Maggie can let Negan be spared even if it fractures her relationship with Rick and anyone who wants to spare Negan.


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#21
Nareen

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Jeffery Dean Morgan was on TV talking about Negan vs Rick. He made a interesting comment: "everyone who has made it this far in this apocalypse has done some very horrible things. If we had been following Negan for 8 years we would be on Negan's side and Rick would be horrible"

 

The Negan bits are in the last minute of the interview.

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=54332380

 

I have to admit I do like Negan, and moreover JDM playing Negan. He's great.

But I went back and watched season 7 episode 1. The Abe and Glenn deaths. Can't get over that.

 

And there is no way Maggie can let Negan be spared even if it fractures her relationship with Rick and anyone who wants to spare Negan.

 

A number of people have said that but I don't agree.  We might have been sucked in if Negan started out as a good guy and gradually deteriorated into the monster he is now but I'm pretty sure I would have abandoned TWD long since.

 

Negan is a parasite who uses murder and force to subjugate the communities around him and exact what amounts to tribute from them.  Doesn't matter if he claims to protect those people; they can all protect themselves except from him.  He uses murder, torture, degradation and every other awful thing you can think of to break people and keep them broken.  He is a sexual predator and a sadist.  Anyone trying to escape the Sanctuary is hunted down and killed.  Negan doesn't get any points from me for saying that people are a resource when all he does is use them up.

 

Rick and company have done some horrible things and made some dreadful mistakes but that is mostly in trying to survive and defend themselves and they are not in the Saviors' league.  Their default mode is to live in peace and build communities.  Right now they are being pushed very close to the dark side in the struggle against the Saviors and we'll see what happens after that.

 

The only interesting thing to me about the Saviors is that some of them, such as Alden, seem to want a fresh start, as well as the awareness that at least some members of Team Rick have that they could have gone down that path under different circumstances.  That's why they shouldn't automatically kill all the Saviors.   But IMO Negan is a lost cause.  So was Simon.

 

I too will never be able to get past the murders of Glenn and Abraham, and that is largely the fault of the makers of TWD because of the way they presented the sequence.  For me it wasn't the deaths or the violence so much as the gleefully graphic and almost pornographic way the scenes were shot, and the weeks of misery afterwards.  That being said, I've never really gotten over Glenn's death and now there is Carl's on top of it.  I just don't like and enjoy TWD as much anymore and more and more often stuff I used to let slide bothers me.

 

I'm just glad FTWD is starting again and happy Morgan will be there.


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#22
mosher

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Jeffery Dean Morgan was on TV talking about Negan vs Rick. He made a interesting comment: "everyone who has made it this far in this apocalypse has done some very horrible things. If we had been following Negan for 8 years we would be on Negan's side and Rick would be horrible"

 

The Negan bits are in the last minute of the interview.

http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=54332380

 

I have to admit I do like Negan, and moreover JDM playing Negan. He's great.

But I went back and watched season 7 episode 1. The Abe and Glenn deaths. Can't get over that.

 

And there is no way Maggie can let Negan be spared even if it fractures her relationship with Rick and anyone who wants to spare Negan.

I guess JDM thinks we'd be onside with rape because for some reason we'd accept that in a world as harsh as TWD, a person has to rape.

That's insane. As an actor he has to demonstrate that Negan thinks he's a hero. I'm sure Negan does, and that Negan believes he's owed for all the saving he's doing. I can see him believing he has to force people to follow because his vision is the only one that saves humanity. It's insane, but I can see that. But Negan has done some things that would always be past the point of acceptable. I can accept that Negan might delude himself. I can accept that Negan might delude others. But not an audience unmarred by the trauma the people of TWD have experienced. As an audience, we're free to evaluate what Rick does NOW versus what Negan does NOW.

If Rick had slaves and raped people I would be hoping for someone else to take over and end Rick.

Sometimes who you are now actually can lose a fan. If we'd followed Negan from the beginning, and he was golden THEN- we as an audience would still hate him NOW.


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#23
mosher

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It's also important to note that Negan primarily saves people from Negan, rather than walkers, starvation, or other people.
The proof is obvious:

Take the Kingdom, or the Hilltop, or Alexandria.
Negan trusts them all to avoid walkers, since he wants them to forage out in the world. He isn't protecting them from walkers.
The Hilltop and the Kingdom both fed themselves. Alexandria would have if the plot didn't require them to be called for a hit against the Saviors in trade for Hilltop food. Negan isn't saving them from starvation. In fact, Negan trusts other communities to feed his community.
All three communities fended off 'bad guys' before. Sure the Wolves would have wiped out Alexandria, but they managed to get Rick first, and more importantly- if Alexandria were under the Saviors before Rick the Wolves still would have wiped out Alexandria. They only needed 10 minutes, and we already know that the Saviors aren't defending those communities- they hole up elsewhere.
Negan isn't saving the people from other people.

Negan is saving people from his community. It's a protection racket. Negan may think he's uniting humanity under one umbrella, but that umbrella really sucks. Rick at his worst still has a better umbrella. He doesn't force people to join and until the Saviors doesn't kill them either. (Notable exception Gabriel- readily explained by their extremely recent escape from Terminus and a need to ensure they were safe.)
 


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#24
naossano

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Well. That would certainly not means that is 100% true, but rather that it could make sense from N's perspective.

- By providing for the saviors, the other communities are kept in check. While they mourn for the loved one and are aware that it could have been worse, while they are busy scavenging, they aren't planning insurrection, not planning to fight the saviors and not planning to fight each others. (Which does happen in the comics)

- The walkers aren't the only exterior threats. There are also smaller gangs of livings people and huge herds of dead people. Having a lot of men and a lot of communities, if coordinated well, can make short work of those threats.

- the workers are ressources, but so are the grunts. Guys like jared, gerry or simon are people too, and could be useful fighting threats. But left to their own devices, they would wreak havoc and would fight someone, kill or get themselves killed. The racket also keep THEM busy, so they don't do more mess, and would still be there when needed.

- the points system and the feudal system give the people some laws and an organized society, some stability.

Our protagonist is bound to fight that system as they have an arguably better system, but that doesn't mean the other makes no sense at all.
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#25
World War Pee

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I completely agree that Negan is a rotten, narcissistic, rapist, killer. So egotistical that he makes everyone under him say "I am Negan". Trying to remove their ego and replace it with his own.

 

I do like him as the antagonist though. A great deal of that is because of JDM's acting. Much better of a villain than the governor IMO.

 

Yes he does provide some structure in this chaotic time, but it's mostly engineered to his benefit.

 

Of course I would rather live under Rick's leadership (even with it's many faults) vs. Negan


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