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Season 3 Episode 9 "the Minotaur"


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Poll: Season 3 Episode 9 "the Minotaur" (10 member(s) have cast votes)

How would you rate tonight's episode

  1. Excellent (0 votes [0.00%])

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  2. Good (3 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  3. Fair (7 votes [70.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 70.00%

  4. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1
Deadpelican

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Discuss tonight's episode


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#2
Aolain

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Well.... At this point I am a bigger fan of FTWD than TWD. With that said, hard to rate these two episodes. While watching them my best reaction was "wooden" when it came to the acting/story. At one point I was thinking "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome."

I just don't know with this one.
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#3
Deadpelican

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I voted "good."    The show seems to be falling into similar patterns as the  other show. Group members get separated in circumstances where it would be very unlikely that  they would ever see each other again.. and then  they always do see each other again. 

 

During Troy's exile, I'm thinking "When will he magically resurface to play hero and save someone thereby convincing the world that he wasn't so bad after all." 

 

It also crossed my mind that he might magically reappear to derail the fragile peace but either way we know we haven't seen the last of him because they didn't show him being killed. 


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Shield yourself from those not bound to you by steel, for they are the blind. Aid them when you can, but lose not sight of yourself.


#4
PlaneJane21

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Remind me to never spend an apocalypse with Madison. That woman is toxic, and she makes the most insane decisions I've ever seen.

 

After uniting two groups that have a long history of feuding, she decides to give control of all the guns to the outside group (the one that killed Travis!) and have them disarm all the residents? On what planet is that a good idea? The only way to keep the peace in a situation like that is to maintain an equal balance of power. They had the right idea when both leaders each had a key to the armory.

 

I fail to understand why the mob attacked the new "owners" of the dam. That seems to me to be a great way to ensure that you don't get any more water shipments.

 

It probably was a good move for Madison to spring Strand, since he's proven himself to be resourceful and knows the location of a better water supplier, though I'm not sure what she intends to use to trade for the water now.


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#5
cornjob

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The first part of this season was encouraging, and the most engaged I've gotten with the show. I think its actually refreshing that we don't know the story before the shows air (no comic template). 

 

But this double episode was a failure. The writers tried too hard to try to insert current events into the story. It feels like a high school short story with a morality lesson to all of us about the desire to "keep our guns" and fight with each other instead of "digging the well" / battle climate change. The alliance and move in of the First Nation group (and the portrayal of that group) feels very forced. But its been stretched way beyond a believable plot that they would just drive in and pitch their tents there. Didn't that feel bizarre to watch?  And then the step further to give them control of the weapons? Its completely unbelievable, for a group that just poisoned and killed dozens of your friends and relatives. I also thought it was a stretch just from the sake of needing weapons to protect from the walkers. (I just want story-telling for the sake of the story. It rarely works when writers are so beholden to a current events message, and ends up detracting from the story itself.)

 

The earlier scenes of diving into a pool of water on the property don't make sense. They tried to show a drying out lake-bed to fix that, but the time frame just seems ridiculous. This comes across as a spur of the moment plotting decision, and makes me lose confidence in where the show is headed. 

 

The racists vs natives narrative has been dicey from the beginning. But its starting to feel to me like the show is going to sacrifice good story-telling and plotting in favor of a social agenda. Its probably been this way all along, but the most recent episode made it glaringly obvious.

 

A good example of where this happened before is with Battlestar Galactica. Very promising start, and then the show just got bizarre in an attempt to comment on every current event. Characters became highly inconsistent, depending on where they needed to plug them in to make whatever point. 

 

During the exile, I realized that the character I find most interesting now is the psychotic son. I was worried Madison was going to kill him. How is it that this guy has become the most sympathetic character in a show filled with basically unlikable characters? I'll keep watching, but I think the initial improvement from the last 2 seasons is probably over now. I suspect we're going to see more incoherence for the next stretch. 


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#6
bully8

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The story line was pretty poor.  It's hard to see how these two groups can live together, water or no water.

 

The hottest heads put aside their differences to dig a well together?  Really?


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#7
ricky311

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It was okay, but certainly not as good as the first half of the season.

One thing I liked about FTWD is that they didn't linger too long on certain plot points, but everything in these two episodes was too much, too fast.

First of all, the water. It was a few episodes ago we saw Alicia diving into a lake, and now we're supposed to believe all of that water is gone? They could have waited with this plot device for a while, and stick to the tension between the two parties at the ranch, and the tension between Nick and Troy. But...

Everything involving Nick was blegh. Why did the writers choose to spill the beans on Jeremiah's death so fast, when there could have been a very interesting tension between Nick and Troy to build upon? Especially after how Troy seemed to get attached to Nick. Also, why was Nick punished when all he ever did was say he didn't want anything to do with Troy's shenanigans and he actually tried to stop him. And succeeded! Why would he be punished? And the most baffling writing choice was that Madison let that happen. That is so against her character and everything we've seen of her. She turned on the damn hotel lights last season, hoping Nick would find her, endangering everyone else. She would go that far to find Nick, but not speak up when they trap him in a box? That pissed me off, tbh.

And then the part where some of the ranchers declare Nick the new militia and hand him the only gun they have left... Really? Why would they do that? There was no believable reason they would suddenly trust in Nick so much. Blegh.

When Madison told Jake to hand over the guns to Walker's camp, I was baffled at first, but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. She wanted to keep the peace, and if you have two parties hating each other's guts, and both carrying guns, all it takes is one little conflict and the whole place turns into a shooting alley. Was it wise to make that move? Probably not, but she gained Walker's respect by doing what she thought needed to be done and shared his visions on living peacefully, so she believed him. So in the end, I don't think this was contrived at all. It actually made sense to me.

I liked how in the end, they all worked together to find water, but the execution could have been done a little bit better.

Madison and Strand back together was my favorite part.

Also, that bazaar/market city looked very interesting. I wish they would have spent a little more time and plot there lol.

Too little zombies for a premiere as well.

After 3A, I feel a little disappointed. I hope it picks up that level of awesome again in the next episodes.
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#8
ricky311

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The alliance and move in of the First Nation group (and the portrayal of that group) feels very forced. But its been stretched way beyond a believable plot that they would just drive in and pitch their tents there. Didn't that feel bizarre to watch?


Actually, this was part of the deal that Madison made with Walker when she brought him Jeremiah's head. Plus, the whole Walker reclaiming his land storyline had been going on for a little while. Out of all the things in this episode, that didn't feel forced to me at all.
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#9
thelastpaul

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I voted fair. I was leaning more towards poor though to be honest. 

Obviously Troy will be back to destabilize things. 

How on earth do they not show Strand telling Madison that Hector is alive? 

How on earth did Strand know that Travis had died when they didn't show Madison telling him? 

Why the fuck did Madison push to give all the weapons to the "nation" .. just felt random and not necessary. If the groups were smart, in any form or fashion, then they would elect "Police" - an equal amount from both sides to uphold the peace and stability of their community. 

For as ruthless and badass as Madison supposedly has become, why the fuck does she have a soft spot for crazy murderer death-wish Troy? He's a major threat to her and her kids, and many other people, yet for some reason she refuses to do what she needs to do and put this kid down. 

 

The end part was nice but also silly. It felt like that whole segment was designed just to show that Nick, with the proper push from Alicia, could lead those people to a different path than Troy would have, and as the sheep they are as soon as their elected leader did something else they followed. 

After a great season finale last year, this season premiere has me worried about the show again. I wasn't impressed by anything that happened. 

Jake is a goner. 


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#10
Nareen

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These episodes were a bit of a letdown for me after the first half season.  I didn't dislike them but there were so many things that made no sense.   It seemed to me that Minotaur especially was primarily setup for the rest of the season and not much more.

 

I can't buy into the water shortage thing.  I too remember Alicia plunging into that deep water so it all seems unbelievable and even ludicrous at this point in time.    

 

Were they proposing to let the horses and cows, which are, if nothing else, extremely valuable resources, die of thirst?

 

Madison makes dumb choices.  She has to have known that there would be considerable resentment amongst the racist ranchers about allowing their erstwhile enemies into their home. Exiling Troy, forcing the others to disarm and in effect kowtow to the Nation is just asking for trouble.   Some members of the Nation seem to be enjoying subjugating the ranchers.  What could go wrong?

 

Why would Madison and Walker be the ones to go looking for water when their community is a powder keg and it’s their doing?  I know why: the same reason the various captains of the Enterprise went on the away missions.  We needed to follow Madison, the main protagonist, and have her meet up with Strand, get to the dam and so on. 

 

Why would Madison give up their only means of communicating with the ranch when Walker had a case full of gold?

 

It looks like Strand hasn't learned much about surviving in the Apocalypse after all.  He would have died but for Madison's intervention and she could only rationalize saving him because of the dam.

 

I really liked Madison and Victor's reunion.  The bond between them was nicely played, especially when Strand understood by what Madison didn't say that Travis was gone.  I had actually forgotten all about Travis.    Did Victor tell Madison that Daniel is alive and at the dam or is he holding that card for some reason?

 

I don't get why Nick was punished either, except as a plot mechanism to get the militia to trust and follow him. 

 

Exiling people is just asking for a band of outlaws to form outside your community, especially when it's a kind of dumb psycho like Troy.  Find a way to deal with them internally, kill them outright or pretend to banish them and kill them away from the community.  (I'm not even a believer in capital punishment!)   Madison should have killed Troy, especially after he killed their companion and tried to kill her.  Unfortunately (because, pretty as he is, I'm tired of him) Troy will be back, for a while.  

 

I don't mind the coincidences in which people who are separated bump into each other again.   The world has become a great deal smaller.  Solitary survivors would be drawn to the few communities that have sprung up and be there to be found.   


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#11
mosher

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I voted poor, something I rarely do.

And that's sad, because I have enjoyed this season very much- it's been far better than TWD and far better than earlier seasons of TWD.

There can't be a massive water shortage yet. They wouldn't give up their guns whether their 'leader' Madison said to or not, and she wouldn't either. Madison and Walker would never leave that impossible situation, they'd send someone else. Nick's goal to talk Troy down was plain as day and he would not have been punished because leaders on both sides knew what he was trying to do, and trying to pretend they didn't know is stupid. The racists wouldn't give their only gun to Nick whether they thought he was their leader or not. It's the only gun, you don't give that away.

Right now I feel like we're stuck on a ranch because no budget, so the contrivances to make it a compelling show are becoming increasingly glaring. A patient plot is a better plot, and things are rushing along way too fast while simultaneously going nowhere.

I did not expect this to be so awful, I've been a fan this entire season. It's bizarre to me that the midseason premier would be this bad. It's like they changed writers and show runner during the break, but I know they already had this filmed.


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#12
mosher

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Exiling people is just asking for a band of outlaws to form outside your community, especially when it's a kind of dumb psycho like Troy.  Find a way to deal with them internally, kill them outright or pretend to banish them and kill them away from the community.  (I'm not even a believer in capital punishment!)   Madison should have killed Troy, especially after he killed their companion and tried to kill her.  Unfortunately (because, pretty as he is, I'm tired of him) Troy will be back, for a while.  

 

I don't mind the coincidences in which people who are separated bump into each other again.   The world has become a great deal smaller.  Solitary survivors would be drawn to the few communities that have sprung up and be there to be found.   

I against capital punishment, but I agree. It's the luxury of civilized society which allows me to be against it. In their situation Troy is dead, and Madison would definitely have killed him and only the pleas of the show runner prevented it. Keep him alive, fine. But don't have it be Madison's call. She would have killed him and not thought twice about it.

And I've never minded conveniences of characters meeting. I want characters to always behave 'in character', and I want people to do things that make sense for a person to do (event their mistakes should make some kind of sense). But people do have amazing coincidences happen to them, and some people have this happen a lot. 7 billion people- the odds are excellent that some people have amazing coincidences happen. When telling an apocalyptic story, you follow the lucky few who are bound to coincidences rather than those who lose everything and die abruptly. So I can't be bothered by that (unless it's too common). Your point that people congregate wherever the 'safe' or bountiful centers are makes sense. There won't be many, and people in the same radius will tend to hear about the same places.


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#13
Deadpelican

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I against capital punishment, but I agree. It's the luxury of civilized society which allows me to be against it. In their situation Troy is dead, and Madison would definitely have killed him and only the pleas of the show runner prevented it. Keep him alive, fine. But don't have it be Madison's call. She would have killed him and not thought twice about it.

 

 

I had the impression that she wanted to spare Troy because she is twisted like him, and therefore identifies with him.    I agree that it's really messed up wanting to spare Troy, but hey, that's Madison. 

 

Alisha warned Walker, basically saying that if you want this peace to work, don't listen to my mother. 

 

I'm thinking that this will prove prophetic.

 

I really wonder if Walker will make it back alive from their little road trip.


Edited by Deadpelican, 15 September 2017 - 04:34 PM.

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#14
mosher

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I had the impression that she wanted to spare Troy because she is twisted like him, and therefore identifies with him.    I agree that it's really messed up wanting to spare Troy, but hey, that's Madison. 

 

Alisha warned Walker, basically saying that if you want this peace to work, don't listen to my mother. 

 

I'm thinking that this will prove prophetic.

 

I really wonder if Walker will make it back alive from their little road trip.

That's an excellent point.

I forgot the very important and frankly decently handled path that Alicia is on. Her realization and acceptance that her mother is dangerous makes for great drama. That may be the route to 'fair' from 'poor' I needed, and I'll take it. Upgrading my vote.


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#15
Stan

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Fair...at best.

 

The first part seemed a mis match of bad ideas and choices...without any direction. Madison seemed so willing to give up arms and everything that gives the camp a sense of security, with predictable results. Then she allows a loose cannon like Troy to believe he has support, works out keeping him alive and then chooses to let him live after what he does. Again, she not only doesn't choose sides, but betrays both sides and plays everything against everything else. She initially hides the water issue for everyone's safety, KNOWING it can't succeed. She likes playing the part of Leader without taking responsibility for the group she leads, defining that group consistently, or being accountable for decisions that have to be made. Jake is a far better leader, but he doesn't have Alicia's voice and command presence.

 

Troy's shoot out and Nick's involvement was just silly.

 

Ofelia was maybe the most interesting character and potential plot growth.

 

Part two was just horrible decisions one after the other. The two Leaders leave the camp for water (not nearly enough, btw-that tanker even with rationing is useless). he then impulsively throws it away because she sees Strand (you know- the guy who screwed up the hotel gig by lying) being held accountable for debt he incurred. So she buys his freedom with the currency they needed for barter (if not for water, then something else later).

 

Well, first she gave away her only connection to the ranch for entry, cutting off Alicia and the team from communication and information. That was sorely needed while they were gone.

 

Nick did the right thing by blocking the well, keeping the peace without either side becoming too weak, but needed to leave it there. He almost got everyone killed by storming automatic weapons with garden tools.

 

The ranch's only shot was working together and keeping the peace. Troy ignored a dangerous situation at the canteen by letting a drunk with a gun get through. It cost them their weapons and more importantly, trust. Nick compounded that.

 

The ending was no deux ex machina, maybe everyone went to dig but everyone there knows what was about to happen. Water or no, trust is lost.

 

Madison and her crew make the decisions that doom colonies.


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