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What's Your Re-Do? (Comic Spoilers Ahead)


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#1
thelastpaul

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So, I was writing a response to another post I created a while back.. and it got me thinking about another topic.

We're 7 seasons into the show. We've seen a lot. We've all had varying opinions on certain story arcs and signature things within the show.

My Question to you all is: At this point, what would you have done differently? What's your TWD Re-Do? 

For me it's the governor storyline...

"What do you mean EXACTLY, TLP?!"  Don't worry. I'll tell you.

I would have had the writers follow the Governor storyline from the comics almost to a T. (If you haven't heard that expression, google it)

Points of interest:
 

  • Andrea would NOT have died. I hate that so many people decided to hate Andrea based on her actions. I stand by everything I said years ago, that she was acting on what she could see and discern. That blindly trusting Michonne with no proof was a stupid expectation from the fans of the show and that in the end Andrea proved what sort of person she was (a good one, who just want to believe in the good of others. She had redemption and could have become comic book Andrea easily!)
     
  • The Governor would have cut Ricks hand off. I don't care how difficult it would have made things for Andrew Lincoln. That was so major and really changed Rick Grimes and who he was.
     
  • Everything that happened with Daryl and Merle was great (aside from Rick and Co. letting Merle come back so easily..), so I would have left that mostly alone. I'd probably have put Glenn and Maggie in severe danger and have Merle be the one to save their lives thus earning his way back into the prison
     
  • Michonne would have been raped by the Gov. (Yes, touchy subject but this stuff happens in the real world today and there's no reason for the show to pussy foot around that in a fictional apocalyptic setting)
     
  • Michonne would have deformed the Gov. to get her revenge, and way beyond him losing his eye.
     
  • Hershell biting the dust instead of Ty was fine, so I'd leave that alone. It was powerful and probably more impactful. They got that right.
     
  • No god damn Governor redemption arc. I almost puked when they tried to make us feel sad for the Governor, that psycho asshole. Also, what a waste of the first half of season 4.
     
  • Keep the "Kill them all!" scene EXACTLY how it was in the comic. Because that shit was intense and powerful. 
     
  • Lori redeems herself early on in Season 3 and then dies along with Judith at the end
     
  • Keep the governors demise exactly as it was in the comic, no modified crap with his redemption arc.

 

Okay. That's it from me. You don't need to get as detailed as I did, but I'd love to hear what you guys would re-do.


Edited by thelastpaul, 14 February 2017 - 09:07 AM.

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#2
kombat

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The single biggest mistake the show did IMO was killing off Andrea so that's what I would go with.

 

But if we're talking major storyline fuck ups, I'd agree with you. Really it's either the prison/Gov arc, shorten the farm arc, or redo the ending of season 6.

 

But you have to go with the prison arc. It was so epic that there's something like 5 novels covering it. It was completely botched from start to finish on the TV show.


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#3
WhiteChocolate

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I kind of liked the Governor redemption arc, but it could've been half the length of time it took up. Aside from killing Andrea and not making the Governor more true to the comic roots, I'd have to say that season 3 finale as a whole was where the show took a turn for the worse. It led to that awful prison sickness arc which was somehow worse than the season 2 farm.


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#4
naossano

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I don't see the governor arc (3 episodes, not half a season) as a redemption arc, but more as an empathy act. It doesn't make the character good, just a bit more understandable. It sucked because they didn't include it in season 3. He was an awfull plot armored robotic character in season 3 and even if season 4 gave him a bit of depth, the damage was already done the previous season, and you couldn't erase it.


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#5
mADAM Scorpious

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i think they shouldve made the governor more evil from the get go, watering him down just made michonne look crazy and jealous and like she hated him for no reason. i liked andrea's death except for the fact that it turned my fave lurker and roamer off of the forum...

 

they shouldve given Ty a better death or kept him alive longer.

 

tomaz versus thomas, i wouldve rather seen that psycho thomas kill beth than have tomaz take dexter's role at the prison and have the hospital cops arc. it also wouldve left daryl alone and it wouldve been more interesting.

 

kill daryl instead of glenn and keep abe long enough to cause drama between sasha and rosita then kill him durring the shows aow.

 

spencer not being more cowardly.

 

tdog not being better developed.


Edited by mADAM Scorpious, 14 February 2017 - 09:35 PM.

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#6
naossano

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They made the governor evil from the get go. It was a damn problem as they ruined all the early interactions when he tried to look sympathetic.

 

They made Michonne not because they made the governor tried to look nice, but because they failed to give Micchone a proper clue or even make her witness anything worthwhile of condemning the Woodbury folks. She started kiling them before knowing for sure who they were. It is not the first, not the last time the showrunners did that. It is not because we know someone is bad that it excuse the heroes killing people because their instinct tell them to.


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#7
Vrill

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Shane would have stayed around longer. Shane kept Rick on his toes more then anyone did or has.


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#8
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Scrap the hospital arc. That was the definitive turning point for me where the show went from mostly amazing to mostly awful...

 

Rather have seen the group journey from Georgia to DC. I know a lot of people contend that 7B was enough for the group "being on the road" but they weren't on the road so much as dicking around on a set of railroad tracks for a few days.

 

But what about Beth?

 

What about her...like Darryl said, "she's just gone..."

 

Like Morales and his family, never to be seen again.


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#9
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speaking of the Morales family, following up with them somehow wouldve been awesome


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#10
theblackboxlies

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Oh man... What would I redo? Probably a lot.

 

First of all, I'd probably have each season be 16-18 episodes from the very start for season structure & length.

 

Physical locations: I'd want to stop using the same 3 stretches of abandoned roads/highways in the Georgia wilderness and also the same probably 3 square miles of forest. Expand on where scenes are filmed. Z Nation does this with ease for example. While they do have scenes in the woods or on long stretches of road, they at least mix it up episode to episode.

 

The presentation of the Atlanta Camp, Hershel's Farm, The Prison and Woodbury were all great and I wouldn't change that. However, I would make the Alexandria Zone be located in the actual city of Alexandria VA, and not some off the grid location in the wilderness (haha) around Washington D.C. of which there is very little. The show definitely needs more cityscape in it and the brief glimpse of D.C. when the gang was headed to Alexandria wasn't enough. I'd also make Hilltop bigger, it seems small & rinkydink. Kingdom's portrayal and the Sanctuary are great though. One of the other big things I'd want to show is THE FUCKING WINTER. Yeah I know the South is typically a lot warmer than the North during winter, but it still snows there sometimes, more so in the D.C. area. Plus there was a cool revelation early on in the comics where someone runs into a partially frozen zombie. 

 

As far as Characters, I'd probably want to stick with just keeping comic only characters. Some of the TV show only characters that have been introduced like Daryl, Merle or Tara were interesting briefly, but they are really no longer needed and their stories seem to have ended and they're just there adding little to no value to the story. One of the biggest mistakes the show made was ruining and killing off Andrea, so I wouldn't have had her killed. Maybe another younger actress besides Laurie Holden could have been cast. Also would have kept Dale alive for a few additional seasons and would have developed the romance between Andrea & Dale before her eventual partnering with Rick.  She's still a pretty major player in the comics now and Michonne being with Rick isn't the same for me. Plus we've missed out on the hookups Michonne had in the comics and the conflict some of them caused. Also what ever happened to the huge thing about Michonne "talking" to her dead boyfriend? Additionally, while it was a great moment on the show, if I were to redo the show I wouldn't have killed off Sophia. I think Enid is a poor replacement.

 

As far as what happens in the seasons I was thinking the storyline could have progressed like this (major comic spoilers etc):

Spoiler

 

This is pretty long for a BBL post, so I'm gonna end it here. 


Edited by theblackboxlies, 16 February 2017 - 12:33 AM.

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#11
Jgreenwood

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I'd keep Beth alive.


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#12
thelastpaul

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Wow BBL, good post! Very in depth interesting read. You win Best Reply of the Thread award. 

One thing though, I think people would have complained that the show was being rushed too much if things were done your way. Not that I don't like that idea since it seems to follow comic pace, but just saying. 


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#13
thelastpaul

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speaking of the Morales family, following up with them somehow wouldve been awesome

I disagree. I think not following up with them is one of the best things the show has done. 

It brings a level of realism to the show that we seldom see. I'd be super disappointed if they ever brought them back. 


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#14
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I disagree. I think not following up with them is one of the best things the show has done. 

It brings a level of realism to the show that we seldom see. I'd be super disappointed if they ever brought them back. 

it's really more of a lingering thing and untied end, and youre right it does add realism to the show but i still like things to be tied up in neat little bows.

a nod to them in another medium of the franchise wouldve been cool,even if they were found dead. like in the gov's book series lily runs into a corpse in a prison outfit which tells us what happened to andrew and i was quite excited about that, i also think mika's zombie nick may have been nick from the gov's books which again was awesome. i wouldve preferred to see them in ftwd or in a merle flashback, or on the gov's journey into atlanta.


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#15
Mr. NomNom

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changed the gov. the arc was awful.

fix dale, ty, Andrea, Sasha, a few others.
they went from decent characters to annoying really quick. Sasha has been redeemed for the most part. should have been sooner.

I would have still kept the rape stuff out. the world is still uncomfortable with it and G.O.T got huge backlash over a rape scene they did and that was on HBO. people would demand TWD to be canceled.

change season 6 ending.

Edited by Mr. NomNom, 17 February 2017 - 05:46 AM.

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#16
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I would have still kept the rape stuff out. the world is still uncomfortable with it and G.O.T got huge backlash over a rape scene they did and that was on HBO. people would demand TWD to be canceled.

i think keeping rape out of adult shows would be a mistake. it happens to over 25% of women and 1/6 men now and in the za it would be even more prevalent. people should be uncomfortable with it, and it shouldn't be overly graphic or sensationalized, but i think keeping it out of the media is like pretending it doesn't happen in real life. talking about in the media can open a dialogue and can change things, i mean it took the stand up comedy of Hannibal Buress to get authorities to finally go after Cosby.

 

twd didnt need to make ed an abusive pedophile but in doing so carol has become a beacon of hope for women in abusive relationships, and by getting uncomfortable they have encouraged women to leave abusive relationships. shane's attempted rape of lori was a major turning point in his downward spiral, and it showed the dangers of staying silent.

 

G.O.T. is another matter, its sex scenes are graphic and a step away from porn and they way it shows rape is more than uncomfortable. like twd was able to show all the sick things the gov had planned for michonne just by looking at the tools on the table and had she been raped by him they wouldn't need to show him using those tools, whereas g.o.t. would've shown it. i think the biggest issue with g.o.t. and rape is not that it graphically shows it (even though that could trigger survivors and sensationalize the act) but that martin refuses to call certain acts of rape, rape. like everyone has issues with the major violent rapes but no one, including martin, acknowledges that daenerys was raped when forced to consummate a marriage that she was sold into, nor was he willing to call it rape when jaime forced cersei to have sex with him which just strengthens rape culture ideas like once a consent = always a consent, or that you can't rape a spouse, or no just means keep trying until you turn a no into a yes. he had the chance to be a major advocate for womens rights by denouncing those incidents as rape but instead he reinforced rape culture, and that is way worse that showing things that wouldve been commonplace in that setting.


Edited by mADAM Scorpious, 17 February 2017 - 07:29 AM.

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#17
thelastpaul

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changed the gov. the arc was awful.

fix dale, ty, Andrea, Sasha, a few others.
they went from decent characters to annoying really quick. Sasha has been redeemed for the most part. should have been sooner.

I would have still kept the rape stuff out. the world is still uncomfortable with it and G.O.T got huge backlash over a rape scene they did and that was on HBO. people would demand TWD to be canceled.

change season 6 ending.

Oh wow, I didn't even think of the Season 6 ending. Yeah, I would have had the deaths shown instead of leaving that "cliffhanger". 

Good one. 


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#18
Mr. NomNom

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i think keeping rape out of adult shows would be a mistake. it happens to over 25% of women and 1/6 men now and in the za it would be even more prevalent. people should be uncomfortable with it, and it shouldn't be overly graphic or sensationalized, but i think keeping it out of the media is like pretending it doesn't happen in real life. talking about in the media can open a dialogue and can change things, i mean it took the stand up comedy of Hannibal Buress to get authorities to finally go after Cosby.

twd didnt need to make ed an abusive pedophile but in doing so carol has become a beacon of hope for women in abusive relationships, and by getting uncomfortable they have encouraged women to leave abusive relationships. shane's attempted rape of lori was a major turning point in his downward spiral, and it showed the dangers of staying silent.

G.O.T. is another matter, its sex scenes are graphic and a step away from porn and they way it shows rape is more than uncomfortable. like twd was able to show all the sick things the gov had planned for michonne just by looking at the tools on the table and had she been raped by him they wouldn't need to show him using those tools, whereas g.o.t. would've shown it. i think the biggest issue with g.o.t. and rape is not that it graphically shows it (even though that could trigger survivors and sensationalize the act) but that martin refuses to call certain acts of rape, rape. like everyone has issues with the major violent rapes but no one, including martin, acknowledges that daenerys was raped when forced to consummate a marriage that she was sold into, nor was he willing to call it rape when jaime forced cersei to have sex with him which just strengthens rape culture ideas like once a consent = always a consent, or that you can't rape a spouse, or no just means keep trying until you turn a no into a yes. he had the chance to be a major advocate for womens rights by denouncing those incidents as rape but instead he reinforced rape culture, and that is way worse that showing things that wouldve been commonplace in that setting.

law and order svu has rape but I guess because it's rarely shown people tend to over look it.

if they wanted to be as graphic as the comic people would want it to be banned. the comic counter part was just awful. it wasn't that she was raped but it was over and over and over again. plus all the tools and way worse than what the G.O.T. did.

Thrones rape scene wasn't as awful as everyone said it was. it was bad and horrible. like i said. law and order s.v.u. has just about as bad if not worse. problem is it's been on forever. since G.O.T. is known for sex and violence i guess it's an easy target.

Edited by Mr. NomNom, 17 February 2017 - 10:49 AM.

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#19
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law and order svu has rape but I guess because it's rarely shown people tend to over look it.

if they wanted to be as graphic as the comic people would want it to be banned. the comic counter part was just awful. it wasn't that she was raped but it was over and over and over again. plus all the tools and way worse than what the G.O.T. did.

Thrones rape scene wasn't as awful as everyone said it was. it was bad and horrible. like i said. law and order s.v.u. has just about as bad if not worse. problem is it's been on forever. since G.O.T. is known for sex and violence i guess it's an easy target.

law and order svu talks about the crimes but rarely shows it, criminal minds is more graphic than it is and again it rarely shows it. but the difference between those shows and g.o.t. is that the disturbing scenes are either implied or talked about rather than shown, and the perpetrators are treated as criminals.

 

michonnes torture of the governor in the comic was way more graphic than her being beaten and raped repeatedly, and they propbably couldnt have shown the torture they way it was drawn and if the tv show had shown the gov use the tools on michonne or andrea it wouldve been way more violent and graphic than a g.o.t. rape scene. but i think they shouldve implied the rape happened without getting graphic, because as it stood, michonne just looked arbitrarily paranoid about the governor so she either shouldve been just as clueless as andrea or something significant should've happened to make her hate tg as much as she did at first.

 

again it's not that rape scenes in g.o.t. are extra brutal or that its an easy target its that martin condones some of the rapes in his show and in his book by refusing to call it rape.


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#20
theblackboxlies

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Wow BBL, good post! Very in depth interesting read. You win Best Reply of the Thread award. 

One thing though, I think people would have complained that the show was being rushed too much if things were done your way. Not that I don't like that idea since it seems to follow comic pace, but just saying. 

 

Thanks Paul. I mean I dunno if it would be too fast paced seeming if the seasons were all 16-18 or maybe even 20 episodes. More like a season of Star Trek or X-files. You know, traditional serial television. I think a layout similar to the comics in terms of structure and pacing would leave cliffhangers or major revelations and character development where they should be. 


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#21
naossano

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G.O.T. is another matter, its sex scenes are graphic and a step away from porn and they way it shows rape is more than uncomfortable. like twd was able to show all the sick things the gov had planned for michonne just by looking at the tools on the table and had she been raped by him they wouldn't need to show him using those tools, whereas g.o.t. would've shown it. i think the biggest issue with g.o.t. and rape is not that it graphically shows it (even though that could trigger survivors and sensationalize the act) but that martin refuses to call certain acts of rape, rape. like everyone has issues with the major violent rapes but no one, including martin, acknowledges that daenerys was raped when forced to consummate a marriage that she was sold into, nor was he willing to call it rape when jaime forced cersei to have sex with him which just strengthens rape culture ideas like once a consent = always a consent, or that you can't rape a spouse, or no just means keep trying until you turn a no into a yes. he had the chance to be a major advocate for womens rights by denouncing those incidents as rape but instead he reinforced rape culture, and that is way worse that showing things that wouldve been commonplace in that setting.

 

I wonder from where you get that, but i think the show was explicit enough to show that Dany certainly didn't want to do it with Drogo, which is a rape according to our standard. But at the same time, it isn't in Westeros culture, when you do it with your spouse. Same with Aerys II and several other cases. The show and the book makes a point in showing that one of the partner is afraid, that he or she certainly doesn't want to go through the bedding, but at the same time the dissonance is also pictured with many other people not seeing as a rape at all. When Tyrion refuses to sleep with Sansa and outright call it rape, nobody takes him seriously. That certainly doesn"t mean the author doesn't see it as rape. Quite the contrary actually. He wouldn't emphasis on the dissonance if he didn't think that was a big deal.


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#22
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law and order svu talks about the crimes but rarely shows it, criminal minds is more graphic than it is and again it rarely shows it. but the difference between those shows and g.o.t. is that the disturbing scenes are either implied or talked about rather than shown, and the perpetrators are treated as criminals.

michonnes torture of the governor in the comic was way more graphic than her being beaten and raped repeatedly, and they propbably couldnt have shown the torture they way it was drawn and if the tv show had shown the gov use the tools on michonne or andrea it wouldve been way more violent and graphic than a g.o.t. rape scene. but i think they shouldve implied the rape happened without getting graphic, because as it stood, michonne just looked arbitrarily paranoid about the governor so she either shouldve been just as clueless as andrea or something significant should've happened to make her hate tg as much as she did at first.

again it's not that rape scenes in g.o.t. are extra brutal or that its an easy target its that martin condones some of the rapes in his show and in his book by refusing to call it rape.


now if mentioned. that's different also implying it is gonna happen. we don't have to see it. but if we know it's going down and then we see Michonne with marks or a bruise, I would get that. plus if the tools are shown it would be a major. wtf is wrong with this guy.

I also see your point on how g.o.t. is different but I get where you're coming from now.
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#23
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I wonder from where you get that, but i think the show was explicit enough to show that Dany certainly didn't want to do it with Drogo, which is a rape according to our standard. But at the same time, it isn't in Westeros culture, when you do it with your spouse. Same with Aerys II and several other cases. The show and the book makes a point in showing that one of the partner is afraid, that he or she certainly doesn't want to go through the bedding, but at the same time the dissonance is also pictured with many other people not seeing as a rape at all. When Tyrion refuses to sleep with Sansa and outright call it rape, nobody takes him seriously. That certainly doesn"t mean the author doesn't see it as rape. Quite the contrary actually. He wouldn't emphasis on the dissonance if he didn't think that was a big deal.

from the rapist's cultural perspective it isn't rape, because at the time women were considered property, so rape only existed when someone forced another person's wife or daughter to have sex with them because the woman didn't belong to that other person. it still is rape when sansa rapes tyrion, and that's something that needs to become more recognized in our society as well.

 

ofcourse simply showing rape in those terms doesn't mean that the author doesn't see it as rape, but martin specifically said it wasn't rape, not that those characters didn't consider the act rape. if he had said the latter than i wouldn't fault him for historical accuracy, and i think being historically accurate is commendable as opposed to white-washing history. emphasizing the dissonance or not, he specifically said a certain rape scene wasn't a rape and that does a great disservice to our current culture. women in north america have fought long and hard for justice so that their 'no' would mean 'no' and their bodies and right to say no would be respected and protected by the justice system and it's still a fight in many states to acknowledge spousal rape ( http://www.vocativ.c...r-marital-rape/those states only consider it rape if its violent and one of them ignores that a husband can be raped by his wife) and martin stands on the wrong side of that fence.


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#24
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twd didnt need to make ed an abusive pedophile 

 

Huh? I missed that in season 1. I don't recall it ever being inferred that Ed abused Sophia sexually.


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#25
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Huh? I missed that in season 1. I don't recall it ever being inferred that Ed abused Sophia sexually.

after ed died carol said something about ed peeking in on his own daughter and after shane beat up ed he was trying to keep sophia in the tent with him but carol wouldnt let her stay with him.


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