Is Rick (Season 6) Catching Up With Shane ?

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#1
naossano

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Been lurking here for a while and i though it would be interesting to adress this.

 

Shane has bitten the dust in season 2 and there was then various parallel in how they both try to handle same situation, some thinking Shane being more hardened than Rick, and that Rick would reach his level. We were being teased by some abiguous actions from Rick and his group in the following seasons, but it seems more blatant in season 5 and 6, that Rick and the group had crossed a lot of lines that made us reconsider their moral standards. Some might even consider them as nominal heroes instead of actual ones.

 

Let's recap Shane charges and compare them with Rick later actions.

 

Shane : Tried to get into a relationship with a married woman. (Lori)

Rick : My memory could serve me wrong, but it seemed to me that Rick tried to get into a relationship with Jessie while Pete was still in Alexandria.

 

Shane : Considered killing the husband of said woman. (Rick)

Rick : Although he was ordered to, Rick actually killed said husband (Pete). Also, he didn't hide he wanted to do it, before being ordered to.

 

Shane : Gave a beating to a violent husband (Ed)

Rick : Same, but with the intend to go further. (Pete)

 

Shane : Wanted to train a kid (Carl) to use guns, even if the parents weren't fond of it. Actually did.

Rick : Same with Ron. Carole also did it with Lizzie, which spectacularly backfired. (although she didn't have to wait that much for parent consent, considering their fate)

 

Shane : Considered killing his best friend (Rick), while it remains unclear if he would have the guts to actually do it.

Rick : Actually killed his best friend (Shane), but one could argue it was self-defense. (even if it remains quite ambiguous)

 

Shane : Wanted to drop the research for Sophia earlier than Rick.

Rick : I honestly don't remember if Rick or some other protagonist were reluctant to look for Beth. But i recall Rick & Carl being quick to consider Judith as dead after the final battle versus the governor.

 

Shane : Killing Randall, an unarmed enemy prisoner in cold blood. Advocating his execution beforehand.

Rick : Killed an unarmed Primo as one of a long list of unarmed antagonist, and nobody battled an eye. Also led of party to execute a lot of unawakened antagonists, although some were uncomfortable with it.

 

Shane : Killed an friendly ally (Otis) to ensure the sucess of his goal. Felt bad about it.

Rick : I don't think Rick even went that far. Altough, he chose to not help some people because he didn't want to take risk or didn't care about them. Some even died as a result. If we can't say they would have become friendly/efficient allies over time, they weren't identified as antagonist either. There is also the crazed man, another prisoner at Terminus, that i think was pushed agains't walkers to allow others to escape. Rick also executed some doomed characters (who were bitten) withouth batting an eye. Carole also did execute some allies, hoping for a better result for others. (like killing the sick in the prison, or killing Lizzie being safer than tries to help her change and risk others lifes)

 

Shane : Made implicit death threats agains't allies. (Dale)

Rick : Made explicit death threats agains't people that were aknowledged as not necessary antagonists (Aaron, amongs others)

 

Shane : Made a clear distinction amongs his allies between those he would risk everything for (Carl/Lori/maybe Judith & Andrea) and those he couldn't care less if they died.

Rick : Quite the same, especially at the Alexandria safe zone. Although, he tend to include much more people in the first group. On the other hand, it might be possible that, given time, Shane would have cared about more people.

 

Dunno if there is other things that could be blamed on Shane. I only watch each episode once.

 

We can also argue that Shane was quicker to take harsher solution, more short-tempered, and possibly more selfish than Rick. He also crossed a huge line for me when he killed Otis, although it allowed him to save Carl. (who knows what Rick would do to save Carl or Judith ?)

 

But in the end, one can't help to notice that a lot of what were considered amongs the darkest of Shane actions were greatly toned down by Rick & Co own actions in the later seasons. I mostly focused on Rick for the comparison as they were the competing leaders in season 2, but other Characters like Carole went even closer.


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#2
Jenday

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Very good post. I've noticed the same things myself. I think when Rick first woke up and found the group that he had no idea just how things were. For someone like Rick, he would want to be the good guy always. But I would imagine that over time, he has gotten battle hardened, so to speak, and things just don't bother him as much. Not because he's a "bad guy" now, but because he knows the rules are all gone and it's survival of the fittest, almost survival of the most ruthless, kill or be killed.
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#3
GirlsDeadMonster

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I think you have many valid points. Personally, I think even with the end of civilization on the dead walking, that early on in Season 1 and 2 I don't think the group was ready for someone like Shane. Yes, he was able to make tough decisions but the group was not accepting of them which made him and outcast and a target. As time in the show progressed, the group could see how people seemed to devolve from how the world was to what it was now and they accumulated to it. I think if you introduced Rick as he is now to the Season 1 Rick, they wouldn't recognize each other and I think they wouldn't even like each other. The group would look at the "battle hardened" Rick with fear and distrust just like they looked at Shane. And without trust a group couldn't survive together. I think Rick needed this time to become the person he is and for the group to become what they are.


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#4
theglassintheguvseye

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Shane : Considered killing the husband of said woman. (Rick)

Rick : Although he was ordered to, Rick actually killed said husband (Pete). Also, he didn't hide he wanted to do it, before being ordered to.

Rick was not abusive and Shane was simply acting like a toddler about Rick's return/losing Lori TO HER OWN HUSBAND.

Shane : Gave a beating to a violent husband (Ed)

Rick : Same, but with the intend to go further. (Pete)

Rick would have done same, had he been there, IMHO.

Shane : Wanted to train a kid (Carl) to use guns, even if the parents weren't fond of it. Actually did.

Rick : Same with Ron. Carole also did it with Lizzie, which spectacularly backfired. (although she didn't have to wait that much for parent consent, considering their fate)

It was a mistake in both cases.  Carl and his bravado w/ the gun lost us Dale.  He was too young.  Lizzie was just a nut job.  Carol was right to teach kids to kill zombies but mistook Lizzie for a complicated child, not seeing the psychosis until it was too late.

Shane : Considered killing his best friend (Rick), while it remains unclear if he would have the guts to actually do it.

Rick : Actually killed his best friend (Shane), but one could argue it was self-defense. (even if it remains quite ambiguous)

Not ambiguous at all.  Shane would have killed him and we all know it.

Shane : Wanted to drop the research for Sophia earlier than Rick.

That was a good call.  Any cop knows that after 72 hours, ya stop looking until that point and then make minimal efforts to find the kid.  Carol didn't even seem to think it worthwhile. So here we agree

Rick : I honestly don't remember if Rick or some other protagonist were reluctant to look for Beth. But i recall Rick & Carl being quick to consider Judith as dead after the final battle versus the governor.

They had no reason to believe otherwise.  Really, they had NO REASON.  Even on here, we for the most part, thought she was dead.

Shane : Killing Randall, an unarmed enemy prisoner in cold blood. Advocating his execution beforehand.

Rick : Killed an unarmed Primo as one of a long list of unarmed antagonist, and nobody battled an eye. Also led of party to execute a lot of unawakened antagonists, although some were uncomfortable with it.

Randall was proven to be part of a bad group, tried to kill Rick when he wanted to just dump the boy far off.  Anyone in the Savior stronghold was twice proven a threat.  He's grown up.  Shane was just immature and rash.  Randall was a HUGE mistake.  Shoulda left him on that fence for walkers but dead thru the head so as not to suffer.

Shane : Killed an friendly ally (Otis) to ensure the sucess of his goal. Felt bad about it.

Rick : I don't think Rick even went that far. Altough, he chose to not help some people because he didn't want to take risk or didn't care about them. Some even died as a result. If we can't say they would have become friendly/efficient allies over time, they weren't identified as antagonist either. There is also the crazed man, another prisoner at Terminus, that i think was pushed agains't walkers to allow others to escape. Rick also executed some doomed characters (who were bitten) withouth batting an eye. Carole also did execute some allies, hoping for a better result for others. (like killing the sick in the prison, or killing Lizzie being safer than tries to help her change and risk others lifes)

Rick was on a mission at a much later time in the series.  Things became as Morgan would say "Clear" to Rick.  Had the dude not hollered so much, the walkers may not have beset him.  Crazed man, well, he was crazy. Carol was just trying to help the group and I am sure Lizzie reminded her of what Sophia could have been had she lived.  Not psychotic mind you but similar ages and she promised her father she'd look after the girls before she put him out of his misery in FRONT OF THEM.  That's gotta sting.

Shane : Made implicit death threats agains't allies. (Dale)

Rick : Made explicit death threats agains't people that were aknowledged as not necessary antagonists (Aaron, amongs others)

Unknown quantity.  His son was almost raped, the Gov destroyed his safe home, etc, etc.  Rick is learning.  Shane was simply born for this world as Dale stated.

Shane : Made a clear distinction amongs his allies between those he would risk everything for (Carl/Lori/maybe Judith & Andrea) and those he couldn't care less if they died.

Rick : Quite the same, especially at the Alexandria safe zone. Although, he tend to include much more people in the first group. On the other hand, it might be possible that, given time, Shane would have cared about more people.

Shane was always about Shane.  Rick learned to cooperate with groups.  He started at the farm, tried to protect Shane even though he threatened the group's ability to stay at the farm per Hershel's dislike/trust of Shane.  He still does that.  

 

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#5
tublecane

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[quote name="naossano" post="346965" timestamp="1458400899"]Shane : Tried to get into a relationship with a married woman. (Lori)[/quote]

He tried by attempting to rape her.

[/quote]Rick : My memory could serve me wrong, but it seemed to me that Rick tried to get into a relationship with Jessie while Pete was still in Alexandria.[/quote]

Depends on what you mean by tried. He gave her looks, pecked her cheek, and went a bit beyond his duties as constable to push her to leave her husband . He did not force himself upon her to the point he had to be violently resisted.
 
[/quote]Shane : Considered killing the husband of said woman. (Rick)
Rick : Although he was ordered to, Rick actually killed said husband (Pete). Also, he didn't hide he wanted to do it, before being ordered to.[/quote]

Rick didn't hide that he preferred execution to banishment as punishment for Pete's hypothetical lawbreaking. Of course, banishment would probably have been as good as a death sentence. For Rick it was about the community's safety, knowing what he knew about the perils of not killing enemies when you have the chance (after the smaller black inmate, the Terminus crowd, and Shane himself for that matter, whom Rick could have abandoned after the two fought at the school where they were going to dump Randall).

This isn't to say that Rick wanted to kill Pete; he only wanted Pete dead in the event that Pete had to be punished. Rick ended up killing Pete not to be with Jesse but because Pete committed murder and was a danger to Alexandria. Shane wanted to kill Rick to be with Lori. His arguments about Rick being a weak leader were spurious considering it's not as if anyone would follow Shane simply because Rick was gone. (Maybe Andrea.) He wouldn't have been Lori's wife and Carl's father by default.
 
[/quote]Shane : Gave a beating to a violent husband (Ed)
Rick : Same, but with the intend to go further. (Pete)[/quote]

Rick didn't start the fight, nor did he want to fight. I don't know how much further he wanted to go, but Pete had flipped the Crazy Rick switch and Rick has lost it. Crazy Rick resembles normal Shane. What does that tell you?
 
[\quote]Shane : Considered killing his best friend (Rick), while it remains unclear if he would have the guts to actually do it.
Rick : Actually killed his best friend (Shane), but one could argue it was self-defense. (even if it remains quite ambiguous)[\quote]

Shane didn't merely consider it, he carried out an elaborately (though incompetently) planned scheme just shy of the point of pulling the trigger. Had he been caught by the police the moment before Rick killed him there'd have been plenty enough evidence of intent for attempted murder. Rick waited way longer than was safe to strike back.
 
[\qpute]Shane : Wanted to drop the research for Sophia earlier than Rick.
Rick : I honestly don't remember if Rick or some other protagonist were reluctant to look for Beth. But i recall Rick & Carl being quick to consider Judith as dead after the final battle versus the governor.[\quote]

Shane was right about Sophia. Rick spearheaded the gambit to retrieve Beth as soon as her existence was confirmed. Carl and Rick saw a bloody car seat, which seemed to them to confirm her death. In any case, either she was dead or had been picked up by others. It wasn't safe to stay at the prison, and there wasn't any way to know who took her or if she had been taken, nor how to find who had taken her had she been taken.
 
[/quote]Shane : Killing Randall, an unarmed enemy prisoner in cold blood. Advocating his execution beforehand.
Rick : Killed an unarmed Primo as one of a long list of unarmed antagonist, and nobody battled an eye. Also led of party to execute a lot of unawakened antagonists, although some were uncomfortable with it.[/quote]

Shane was right. If you'll recall, the group basically had decided to kill Randall. They were dragging their feet about it. Shane was only marginally more certain they should do it. Rick has indeed gone more Shane on the issue, especially after the little black inmate at the prison, which led to Lori's death, and the Claimers/Terminus.
 
[\quote]There is also the crazed man, another prisoner at Terminus, that i think was pushed agains't walkers to allow others to escape[\quote]

No, that guy got devoured because he wasn't paying attention. Rick didn't want to bother with freeing him but gave into Glenn's pleading. And he doesn't even get credit for it from you. What a waste.
 
[\quote]Shane : Made implicit death threats agains't allies. (Dale)
Rick : Made explicit death threats agains't people that were aknowledged as not necessary antagonists (Aaron, amongs others)[\quote]

Not the same at all. Rick thought Aaron was a probable antagonist and a danger to the group as a whole at the time. Dale was Shane's antagonist, though not the group's, only because Dale knew Shane had killed Otis and was considered killing Rick.
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#6
DominusPisces

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Time line. Rick has been molded over 2 years of constant threat from the outside world.

Shane went nuts not even 2 months in.

I would say Rick is allot better than Shane.
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#7
Lurwalker

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To me the moment that Rick crossed into Shane territory was in S5 when in ATL with Grady Memorial Hosp. cop that Rick hit with the car when the cop was running away and broke his back.  That to me would've been a Shane move as it was unnecessary to do, done out of spite and ready for situation to be over with.  After that moment, Shane has been running all over Asz at various stages just looking like Rick. The whole storyline with porchdick, Jessie and Rick all felt Shane like (Rick showing some possessive issues with Jessie ala Shane/Lori in S2). Shane always did things hap hazardly in the moment he was in and that is how the whole let's kill Negan's group was handled. Got to get them first without doing the leg work of sitting back and monitoring that groups hideout and coming/goings before just busting in and thinking your done.  JMO.


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#8
kombat

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The difference is Rick had to go through a year and a half to 2 years of the apocalypse to get to this point. Shane was already there.


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#9
naossano

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I also do think that the intent of both aren't quite the same, or rather, their impulse/mindset.

One is way more quicker to pick the harsher solution and is, deep down, more coward and selfish than the other.

 

But the act themselves tend to put them in a very shady area.

Before the governor, before Negan, before the wolfe, Shane was set a the major antagonist the show had (at the time).

He was shown as the most ruthless and brutal member of the group. It isn't sure he would still be a member of the team if he hadn't tried to kill Rick.

 

Throw that guy now, in the back end of the season 6... You would have a very hard time making him look like a bad guy...

He would mostly be seen as somewhere between Rick and Nicholas...

 

They tried to make parallels between him and the others in season 3, but IMO, it is even more visible now.

(not just in season 6, but also season 5. I also forgot to mention that Rick was willing to kill everyone at Alexandria at some point to "make it work")


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#10
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Rick has had to become more like Shane over the years, but I think at their core they are very different people.  I think Rick truly cares about the Alexandrians, now that he trusts them and knows them.  I think he would put himself in danger to help them and save them.  He is distrustful and wary after all this time, but deep down he cares and desires peace.   

 

I say this as a huge fan of Shane - I STILL miss the guy - but I think he cared about himself first of all, then Lori and Carl, then Rick (though obviously he developed a weird love/hate feeling towards him) with everyone else way down the list.  I don't think he would have risked his life to save Alexandrians.  He was bitter, jealous, paranoid (and to be fair, hurt), and deep down, I think he relished the chaos. 


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#11
Endless Mist

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Shane was already ahead of his time. the season 1 and 2 group could never catch up with him, he was already a determined beast willing to do what had to be done. if Shane was to be magically thrown in season 6 he would be totally ready to cope with the group and the situations.

 

The old group was much softer compared to him. I never viewed Shane as a dislikeable character, he was just unfortunate with the things as they were.

 

To answer the topic, yes, it took Rick a lot of seasons to catch up with Shane, in fact I believe that current Rick surpassed him.

 

 


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#12
kombat

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Interesting to ponder, if Negan had someone like Rick around in the early going, would he have also been killed early on like Shane was?


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#13
Jenday

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Shane was already ahead of his time. the season 1 and 2 group could never catch up with him, he was already a determined beast willing to do what had to be done. if Shane was to be magically thrown in season 6 he would be totally ready to cope with the group and the situations.

The old group was much softer compared to him. I never viewed Shane as a dislikeable character, he was just unfortunate with the things as they were.

To answer the topic, yes, it took Rick a lot of seasons to catch up with Shane, in fact I believe that current Rick surpassed him.


I agree with this. I am re-watching season 1-2 right now, and I find myself thinking that Shane's decisions weren't wrong, he just lacked tact. His fast paced, impulsive behavior is why so many didn't agree with him. He could have used a soft spoken tone, and balmy laid out his reasons for decisions and most people would have readily agreed.

I think Rick has realized that Shane wasn't so far off after all.
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#14
General Ian Zane

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I think the parallels are meant to be there. Whether Rick or Shane is a better person in their final states, I'd say its getting closer to a tie, but not quite yet.  Shane was headed towards full on Governor or Negan territory. Rick is still in the bite your throat and kill 'em all stage. We will have to see how far he goes. Rick has stopped caring about people getting their faces eaten. But he isn't quite at the 'you go get your face eaten for me, k thanks' stage.

 

I'm thinking a TV show from the point of view of Alexandria would have a very different take on the Time of Rick.


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#15
theglassintheguvseye

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Interesting to ponder, if Negan had someone like Rick around in the early going, would he have also been killed early on like Shane was?

 

Now that is interesting to ponder.  Had Shane lived, I believe he would not be Negan but that's not what you asked.  Still, Shane was not charismatic at all.  He was a big, dumb jock.  Haven't seen Negan yet but if they show his back story and that he has always been ruthless and a thief, he'd be dead like Shane. The cult like vibe I'm getting off of the Saviors paints him in my mind as a cult leader Jim Jones type.  The Governor x 10.  "We are all Negan".  That smells like a collective as cults tend to be.  A hive, if you will.  But I don't think Negan would be around if you were to switch him out for Shane. I hope that made sense....


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#16
Deadpelican

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I still say Shane's behavior was rooted in sexual jealousy. 

 

Let's  say  Rick had said "Fuck Sophia we're abandoning this search," after only one hour. Let's say he capped Randall when his leg got caught on the fence.  Let's say he was the one who  shot Otis- under the same circumstances and for the same reasons. Let's say Rick slaughtered all the walkers in the barn the minute he found them. 

 

If that had  happened, Shane would have been warning Lori  about how Rick was an unhinged psychopath. He would have told Lori that Rick was   dangerous to her and  Carl. 

 

Shane's constant bickering with Rick was all about proving to Lori  that he was a better husband and father.  I don't think it was ever about the "right" way to handle things. 


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#17
ssnider75

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I never felt that the Shane/Otis thing was that bad.

 

It was clear that Carl and Lori were very important to Shane. In the moment at that high school, both Shane and Otis were injured and it was suggested that the zombies were gaining on them. Either one was going to die or both were going to die.

 

By Shane doing what he did, he lived as did Carl. This also saved Lori some heartache as she loved Carl.

 

If it was my kid and my wife (as Shane wanted it to be) I may have done the same thing.

 

Shane realized the situation before Otis did and had the nerve to go through with it.


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#18
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I never felt that the Shane/Otis thing was that bad.

 

It was clear that Carl and Lori were very important to Shane. In the moment at that high school, both Shane and Otis were injured and it was suggested that the zombies were gaining on them. Either one was going to die or both were going to die.

 

By Shane doing what he did, he lived as did Carl. This also saved Lori some heartache as she loved Carl.

 

If it was my kid and my wife (as Shane wanted it to be) I may have done the same thing.

 

Shane realized the situation before Otis did and had the nerve to go through with it.

Otis actually did understand the situation. He told Shane to take the bag and run, and Shane refused. Shane wanted Otis to make it and took risk to do so. Only when they both were worn out did Shane take Otis's advice. Because he waited he took Otis's chance to go out his own way, but Otis had already concluded that he probably wouldn't make it. Shane made a decision to save the life of a child he loved at the expense of the man who shot that child. It may have been tragic, but it was completely understandable.

That being said, it was a moment that broke Shane. Which means Shane was fixed on making things work until that resolve was ruined by actions he couldn't forgive in himself.

One of the best character development I'd seen. Shane was riddled with self-doubt and in no way certain about anything. He was struggling and erratic and only feigned leadership. I think people read him wrong who read him as strong, capable, and ready.


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#19
kombat

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My recollection of it is that Shane offered to sacrifice himself and Otis refused to leave him behind. I never had a problem with what Shane did either. The math says he was right; either 1 dies or 3 die.


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#20
Nareen

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I still say Shane's behavior was rooted in sexual jealousy. 

 

Let's  say  Rick had said "Fuck Sophia we're abandoning this search," after only one hour. Let's say he capped Randall when his leg got caught on the fence.  Let's say he was the one who  shot Otis- under the same circumstances and for the same reasons. Let's say Rick slaughtered all the walkers in the barn the minute he found them. 

 

If that had  happened, Shane would have been warning Lori  about how Rick was an unhinged psychopath. He would have told Lori that Rick was   dangerous to her and  Carl. 

 

Shane's constant bickering with Rick was all about proving to Lori  that he was a better husband and father.  I don't think it was ever about the "right" way to handle things. 

 

This.

 

Shane's ideas were right some of the time but he only ever acted from impulse, when he lost control of himself.  In my opinion he not strong enough emotionally to have lasted in the ZA.   He was also not much of a thinker, as was shown in his stupid plan to kill Rick.  Whatever we may feel about the murder of Otis, I don't think Shane ever really forgave himself and that guilt amplified his downward spiral.   

 

I think that Rick has surpassed Shane in some ways, as seen in his willingness to just kill people without a second thought.   But his ruthlessness comes from the will to survive and help his people survive, not his own personal agenda.


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#21
Endless Mist

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I still say Shane's behavior was rooted in sexual jealousy. 

 

Let's  say  Rick had said "Fuck Sophia we're abandoning this search," after only one hour. Let's say he capped Randall when his leg got caught on the fence.  Let's say he was the one who  shot Otis- under the same circumstances and for the same reasons. Let's say Rick slaughtered all the walkers in the barn the minute he found them. 

 

If that had  happened, Shane would have been warning Lori  about how Rick was an unhinged psychopath. He would have told Lori that Rick was   dangerous to her and  Carl. 

 

Shane's constant bickering with Rick was all about proving to Lori  that he was a better husband and father.  I don't think it was ever about the "right" way to handle things. 

 

Very interesting theory. Sexual jealousy can push a man into some crazy actions , basically lose his mind. I always thought that women can either uplift or destroy a man :)


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#22
Deadpelican

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Very interesting theory. Sexual jealousy can push a man into some crazy actions , basically lose his mind. I always thought that women can either uplift or destroy a man :)

 

I think it's pretty apparent based on what we know of Rick and Shane prior to the apocalypse.  Before Shane and Lori hooked up, Shane was Rick's wing man and never second- guessed him. 

 

But once Shane became emotionally involved with Lori- then Rick was his enemy and so argued with him on pretty much everything. 

 

Rick says CDC, Shane says Ft. Benning. 

 

Rick says look for Sophia, Shane says forget her. 

 

Rick says spare Randall, Shane says kill him. 

 

Rick says manage barn walkers, Shane says slaughter them. 

 

See a pattern here? 

 

I sure do. 


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#23
DominusPisces

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I think it's pretty apparent based on what we know of Rick and Shane prior to the apocalypse.  Before Shane and Lori hooked up, Shane was Rick's wing man and never second- guessed him. 

 

But once Shane became emotionally involved with Lori- then Rick was his enemy and so argued with him on pretty much everything. 

 

Rick says CDC, Shane says Ft. Benning. 

 

Rick says look for Sophia, Shane says forget her. 

 

Rick says spare Randall, Shane says kill him. 

 

Rick says manage barn walkers, Shane says slaughter them. 

 

See a pattern here? 

 

I sure do. 

 

Without any intel on either location Neither was right, nor wrong. I actually would have agreed with Shane citing an already established military instillation would have been preferred to one rigged up at the CDC. Also, it should be pointed out, the CDC was a bust. 

 

Shane was right about Sophia. She was already dead. After two or three days, it's time to call it quits. At that point in that environment it would be recovery not rescue. Rick wanted to keep looking because Sophia had become a symbol of hope to him.

 

Randal SHOULD have been left alive on the post as a distraction. Let him dying to draw walkers away from RickCo be payment for trying to kill them. Otherwise in light of mercy Randal should have been head shot then and there. The only reason to bring him back was to get him to spill on his group. Not nurse him to health and NOT try to get intel as an afterthought, days later.

 

The walkers should have slaughtered. NOT the way Shane went about it, but certainly a way should have been thought of, to show Hershel they weren't people any longer, rather than talking. If it wasn't for Shane, Hershel would have died deluded on his Ranch, along with his WHOLE family.

 

Shane made the right calls but executed them wrong AND for the wrong reasons. Rick made the wrong calls but had proper planning and restraint when he did do something. 

 

Now we have someone blended together.


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Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord these bites aren't deep.
Should I die before I wake, I pray thee Lord, my skull they break.


#24
Zvivor

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Been lurking here for a while and i though it would be interesting to adress this.

 

Shane has bitten the dust in season 2 and there was then various parallel in how they both try to handle same situation, some thinking Shane being more hardened than Rick, and that Rick would reach his level. We were being teased by some abiguous actions from Rick and his group in the following seasons, but it seems more blatant in season 5 and 6, that Rick and the group had crossed a lot of lines that made us reconsider their moral standards. Some might even consider them as nominal heroes instead of actual ones.

 

Let's recap Shane charges and compare them with Rick later actions.

 

Shane : Tried to get into a relationship with a married woman. (Lori)

Rick : My memory could serve me wrong, but it seemed to me that Rick tried to get into a relationship with Jessie while Pete was still in Alexandria.

 

Shane : Considered killing the husband of said woman. (Rick)

Rick : Although he was ordered to, Rick actually killed said husband (Pete). Also, he didn't hide he wanted to do it, before being ordered to.

 

Shane : Gave a beating to a violent husband (Ed)

Rick : Same, but with the intend to go further. (Pete)

 

Shane : Wanted to train a kid (Carl) to use guns, even if the parents weren't fond of it. Actually did.

Rick : Same with Ron. Carole also did it with Lizzie, which spectacularly backfired. (although she didn't have to wait that much for parent consent, considering their fate)

 

Shane : Considered killing his best friend (Rick), while it remains unclear if he would have the guts to actually do it.

Rick : Actually killed his best friend (Shane), but one could argue it was self-defense. (even if it remains quite ambiguous)

 

Shane : Wanted to drop the research for Sophia earlier than Rick.

Rick : I honestly don't remember if Rick or some other protagonist were reluctant to look for Beth. But i recall Rick & Carl being quick to consider Judith as dead after the final battle versus the governor.

 

Shane : Killing Randall, an unarmed enemy prisoner in cold blood. Advocating his execution beforehand.

Rick : Killed an unarmed Primo as one of a long list of unarmed antagonist, and nobody battled an eye. Also led of party to execute a lot of unawakened antagonists, although some were uncomfortable with it.

 

Shane : Killed an friendly ally (Otis) to ensure the sucess of his goal. Felt bad about it.

Rick : I don't think Rick even went that far. Altough, he chose to not help some people because he didn't want to take risk or didn't care about them. Some even died as a result. If we can't say they would have become friendly/efficient allies over time, they weren't identified as antagonist either. There is also the crazed man, another prisoner at Terminus, that i think was pushed agains't walkers to allow others to escape. Rick also executed some doomed characters (who were bitten) withouth batting an eye. Carole also did execute some allies, hoping for a better result for others. (like killing the sick in the prison, or killing Lizzie being safer than tries to help her change and risk others lifes)

 

Shane : Made implicit death threats agains't allies. (Dale)

Rick : Made explicit death threats agains't people that were aknowledged as not necessary antagonists (Aaron, amongs others)

 

Shane : Made a clear distinction amongs his allies between those he would risk everything for (Carl/Lori/maybe Judith & Andrea) and those he couldn't care less if they died.

Rick : Quite the same, especially at the Alexandria safe zone. Although, he tend to include much more people in the first group. On the other hand, it might be possible that, given time, Shane would have cared about more people.

 

Dunno if there is other things that could be blamed on Shane. I only watch each episode once.

 

We can also argue that Shane was quicker to take harsher solution, more short-tempered, and possibly more selfish than Rick. He also crossed a huge line for me when he killed Otis, although it allowed him to save Carl. (who knows what Rick would do to save Carl or Judith ?)

 

But in the end, one can't help to notice that a lot of what were considered amongs the darkest of Shane actions were greatly toned down by Rick & Co own actions in the later seasons. I mostly focused on Rick for the comparison as they were the competing leaders in season 2, but other Characters like Carole went even closer.

Brilliant analysis and comparison.   I don't agree with you about the Shane-Otis thing though.  Since then, Rick has done worse.


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#25
kombat

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I think it's pretty apparent based on what we know of Rick and Shane prior to the apocalypse.  Before Shane and Lori hooked up, Shane was Rick's wing man and never second- guessed him. 

 

But once Shane became emotionally involved with Lori- then Rick was his enemy and so argued with him on pretty much everything. 

 

It was implied, especially in the flashback scene where Shane catches up to Lori at school picking up Carl to tell her that Rick was shot, that an affair had started before the ZA.


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