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Anyone Here Who Loves The Tv Show But Hates The Comics?

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#51
Deadpelican

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The show seems to be at its peak whenever it directly takes scenes from the comic- 

 

I don't feel that way at all.

 

For example, I absolutely hated After and think thought  The Grove was incredibly overrated.  

 

Both of those episodes lifted story lines from the comic that I personally thought were pointless. 

 

On the TV show, the safe zone stuff is not better, nor worse than the comic in my opinion.  As I've previously stated, the TV show has reached a point in the story that isn't spectacular in the comic either. 

 

Not bad, but not quite as good as the prison story arc and the hunters. 


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#52
theglassintheguvseye

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I rarely disagree w/ Dp and I don't now.  He's read the comics so his opinion is more educated than mine.  The show needs to deviate a lot.  Particularly if the comics went to shitsville after #100 which the show has passed from what I understand.  Anyhow.  I like the show and if someone doesn't, that's okay too. 


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#53
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Filming spoilers are not allowed in the regular forums. Last post removed.


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#54
meesha1971

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 Thanks for the rational explanation. 

 

A trend I'm seeing, and I don't mean this in a hostile way, but I keep seeing you guys say "What i've seen from the comics" and even "I haven't read them at all." Is it possible to make an accurate or fair judgement? I've seen every episode of the television show and I'll argue till the day I die that the show is far weaker than its comic counterpart. It's kind of like saying the United States is the best country in the world without every have left the state you grew up in. Just food for thought. 

 

 

Out of curiosity, which big moments did you think were over the top in the comics (beside 

 

I'm a bit late to this party and I don't post here much anymore, but I would like to address this comment because I actually have read the comics.  They are terrible. In part, that is due to the limitations of the medium - silly, exaggerated still drawings and talk bubbles do not allow for proper development of a serious story or characters.  But lazy writing and cheap gimmicks for shock value are also part of the problem - which has also happened on the show from time to time.  Especially when Mazzara was in charge.  But the show in general has improved greatly on very lackluster and limited source material.

 

Characters -

The comic characters are badly written and poorly developed.  In the comic, the only character who is even remotely likable is Andrea - and even she is badly written as a Mary Sue.  The character development in the show has been far superior to the comics.  They are more realistic and fleshed out so they are more complex and interesting than their comic counterparts.  That's not to say that there have not been mistakes made with character development in the show, but in comparison to the comic, the show characters have been vastly superior.

 

Villains -

That ties into the villainous characters as well.  Kirkman sucks at creating believable, complex villains.  In the comic, the governor and Negan are ridiculous, laughable, cartoon parodies.  The governor is little more than Kirkman's version of Snidely Whiplash while Negan is an overgrown, hyperactive child.  Neither were even remotely sinister or threatening in the comic because they were too ridiculous and laughable.  The hunters and the scavengers were just pathetic and neither presented any legitimate threat.  The hunters were given the most ridiculous story - turning to cannibalism in spite of there being plenty of resources available simply because they were too lazy to learn how to hunt or fish and too weak and cowardly to scavenge.  The scavengers were taken out in seconds and were never any real threat at all.

 

The show's version of the governor was more complex and believable.  One of the very few things that Mazzara did well in season 3 - though David Morrisey's performance is a large part of that as well.  He was sinister and presented a real threat with his ability to charm and manipulate people into doing terrible things for him without realizing what he was actually asking of them.  The hunters incident was adapted into an actual plot arc with Terminus - a far more sinister threat than a random group of lazy cowards.  Now, the cannibal aspect was problematic in the show as well - but that was due to the entire concept of cannibalism not being believable in a fictional apocalypse where there are still plenty of resources available for food.  This is not a situation like The Road where all animal life and vegetation had been destroyed and there was literally no hope for the human race to survive once the existing sources of food inevitably ran out.  The characters in TWD can still hunt, fish, grow food, and scavenge.  The scavengers became the wolves and, while it is not yet clear how that arc will end up or if they rushed it with JSS, the wolves did present a more legitimate threat in the show.  They actually got inside the walls and killed a lot of people before they were stopped.  How they handle Negan remains to be seen, but if they tone down the cartoon parody and adapt him in a believable way like they did the governor, I think that will be fine.

 

Plot arcs -

The plot arcs in the comic are not very interesting or believable.  Kirkman started off all right - he had a good concept and using Rick's coma to bypass the typical zombie origins story and jump right into the meat of the story of how the survivors are dealing with the aftermath of the initial zombie outbreak was a great idea.  But the limitations of the medium defeated him so we end up with a lot of very lackluster arcs with a few good moments scattered here and there.  By the time Rick's group reached the prison, the comic had completely derailed - and the introduction of Snidely Whiplash as the governor pretty much destroyed any potential the comic ever had of presenting even a marginally good story in spite of those limitations.  And Kirkman has fallen into the trap of repeating essentially the same type of story over and over - Rick's group vs. cartoon parody villain's group.  The story of how people might survive in a ZA has gotten lost in the lackluster "war" arcs.

 

The show was able to create a much more interesting story with much more realistic and likable characters.  Having live actors who can genuinely emote and the time to flesh out and properly develop those characters made a huge difference.  Which also applies to the plot arcs themselves because the show is not limited to silly, exaggerated panel drawings and talk bubbles.  Darabont's choice to include short flashbacks to events prior to the ZA in season 1 was also beneficial in fleshing out the characters and the story overall.  They should have done more of those with all the major characters.  The original characters in the show add another layer of dimension because they don't have any limitations from the source material - the writers can use them in various ways to remix plot arcs from the comics or develop original arcs to stretch out the limited source material from the comic.  If they had been limited to only the characters and material from the comic, the TV show wouldn't have lasted beyond a couple of seasons because there is only enough material in the comic for about 25 episodes of an hour long TV show - that's counting the current 150 issues because 6 issues of the comic generally has enough material for 1 episode of the show.  Where the TV show really shines is when they remix arcs from the comic with original material to flesh them out and make them more believable. 

 

Though, again, that's not to say there haven't been mistakes in the show.  Mazzara rushed through too much of the comic material too quickly in season 3 - even pulling in material from the ASZ arc from the comic.  That has caused a lot of problems with certain things feeling redundant and repetitive now that they have reached that arc on the show.  With good writing and a proper adaption, the prison/Woodbury arc could easily have been spread out over 2 seasons.  Season 3 should have focused on the prison and the group making that into a home that was believable for them to be willing to fight for - using the prisoners for conflict.  Season 4 is where the governor should have been introduced - with Too Far Gone being the season 4 finale.  And the show will likely suffer from the limitations of the source with repeated Rick's group vs. Villain's group arcs the further it goes on if they don't find a way to differentiate and keep that feeling fresh.  However, even with those mistakes and potential problems with repeated arcs, the show has still presented a more believable and interesting story with more realistic and complex characters than the comic simply because the television medium does not suffer from the same limitations as the comic medium.


Edited by meesha1971, 25 January 2016 - 05:20 AM.

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#55
JesusMonroe

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Characters -

The comic characters are badly written and poorly developed.  In the comic, the only character who is even remotely likable is Andrea - and even she is badly written as a Mary Sue.  The character development in the show has been far superior to the comics.  They are more realistic and fleshed out so they are more complex and interesting than their comic counterparts.  That's not to say that there have not been mistakes made with character development in the show, but in comparison to the comic, the show characters have been vastly superior.

You can't just say something like "the characters are badly written and developed" and "they are more realistic and fleshed out." Use examples. Explain why. Your entire post is just broad claims with nothing to back them up. They're completely meaningless platitudes. 

 

I'll explain why I think the comic characters are better. The show brings its "character development" out of nowhere. Carol in S2 was weak and always crying. Suddenly she becomes a badass at the beginning of the next season and at the beginning of the NEXT season, she's a serial killer. Rick's development has been all over the place and I firmly believe that he's one of the worst written television characters on a major drama that I've ever seen. He never grows as a character, just alternates between Point A and Point B (being peaceful and overly nihilistic). Hell, half of the characters in the show don't have any personality beyond grunts and angst

 

Do I even need to bring up Lori and Andrea? Or Carl, the second most important character in the series who doesn't even feel like he exists anymore? Or Morgan, who also got "character development" out of nowhere that just doesn't make sense?

 

The show just juggles the same question every season. Should we retain our humanity or survive? What's better. It's pathetic middle-school writing. I'm not saying that that question shouldn't have ever been brought up but we're in the sixth goddamn season and that's the only thing the show bothers to ask because it can't think of anything else to pass off as "deep writing"

 


Villains -

That ties into the villainous characters as well.  Kirkman sucks at creating believable, complex villains.  In the comic, the governor and Negan are ridiculous, laughable, cartoon parodies.  The governor is little more than Kirkman's version of Snidely Whiplash while Negan is an overgrown, hyperactive child.  Neither were even remotely sinister or threatening in the comic because they were too ridiculous and laughable.  The hunters and the scavengers were just pathetic and neither presented any legitimate threat.  The hunters were given the most ridiculous story - turning to cannibalism in spite of there being plenty of resources available simply because they were too lazy to learn how to hunt or fish and too weak and cowardly to scavenge.  The scavengers were taken out in seconds and were never any real threat at all.

The Governor was cartoonish but he was hardly meant to be deep. He was a threat and he worked effectively as one. He killed half of the main cast and traumatized those remaining. His impact in the comic can still be felt unlike Morrissey who everyone instantly forgot about it once he died. Hell, he wasn't even complex or believable. Many people say the two Governor episodes are the worst in Season 4 by far because they're focusing on a very uninteresting character

 

I disagree with you on Negan but I don't know if you've read any of the recent arcs

 

The Termites were a complete joke in the show and I can't believe you're even bringing up the scavengers as an example considering they had like five lines of dialogue and were killed immediately. The point of the scavengers were how the CHARACTERS reacted to them--Rick, Carl, and Abe. Five lines of dialogue in this case is better than focusing the back half of the season on "claimers" when they're just completely outlandish and their only purpose to the plot to be killed. Hell, the purpose of almost any character in the show wasn't in the comics is just to die. That is frankly shit writing

 

And I also completely disagree about the plot arcs. Every plot arc in the show is there to kill time until the characters move onto a new season. Look at a show like Breaking Bad and how something as small as Skyler's relationship with Ted eventually feeds into the plot in a huge way. Look at TWD in which half a season was wasted on a disease in the prison. What did that contribute to besides Carol's weird serial killing habits being revealed? Hell, what did the Governor contribute to the show? You know, the biggest villain they've had yet? What about the hospital people? The termites? Every plot arc just turns into us vs. them and every group that Rick meets ends up dying. The show is like a record that's just looping over and over. Nothing's changing besides the scenery

 

A perfect example is the Alexandria arc in the show. The point in the comics was to show how effectively Rick's group can affect the people. Rick gets over his regrets of the past and actually steps up as a leader (something that is way less effective in the show since Rick steps up and steps down as a leader all the fucking time. Rick accepting himself as the leader in this situation was built up over many volumes). In the show, it's just all the Alexandrians getting killed. Why care about them? They're redshirts! You see, they haven't been in the outside world and are useless so they're going to die. But Rick's group is survival-hardened and not useless! They can survive! How the fuck is that even a message? It's incredibly cynical

 

Everything in the show is just painfully predictable and it's just a fucking chore to watch. It's so clear that Glenn's going to get killed at the end of the season and then people will be praising the show saying "Wow, we got mad at the writers saying they didn't have the balls to kill off Glenn but they just made this more unexpected!!!!! Incredible writing!" In reality, it's shit, shit writing and no different from Mazarra killing off T-Dog to make Lori's death more shocking (except in this case we wasted several episodes on the mystery of Glenn and severely hurt the show's credibility with this survival)


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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#56
Deadpelican

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And I also completely disagree about the plot arcs. Every plot arc in the show is there to kill time until the characters move onto a new season. Look at a show like Breaking Bad and how something as small as Skyler's relationship with Ted eventually feeds into the plot in a huge way. Look at TWD in which half a season was wasted on a disease in the prison. What did that contribute to besides Carol's weird serial killing habits being revealed? Hell, what did the Governor contribute to the show? You know, the biggest villain they've had yet? What about the hospital people? The termites? Every plot arc just turns into us vs. them and every group that Rick meets ends up dying. The show is like a record that's just looping over and over. Nothing's changing besides the scenery

 

 

 

Breaking Bad only lasted five seasons because they told the stories that needed to be told- no more, no less. 

 

At some point, AMC got the idea that  Walking Dead is a cash cow that needs to be milked over the course of  ten seasons or more. 

 

The result is that they are continually adding filler  in order  to drag the story out as long as possible.  Something to Fear/ All Out War Story arcs have enough material to last one season.

 

I fear they will stretch it into 1.5 seasons (the whole of season 7 and first half of season 8).

 

Hell, I bet they will have two back- to- back flashback bottle episodes about the rise of Negan and a bottle episode about Dwight as well. 

 

And another bottle episode about the background of Jesus Monroe to stretch out the "All Out War" story to season 8. 


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#57
Serenity@sea

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You can't just say something like "the characters are badly written and developed" and "they are more realistic and fleshed out." Use examples. Explain why. Your entire post is just broad claims with nothing to back them up. They're completely meaningless platitudes. 

 

I'll explain why I think the comic characters are better. The show brings its "character development" out of nowhere. Carol in S2 was weak and always crying. Suddenly she becomes a badass at the beginning of the next season and at the beginning of the NEXT season, she's a serial killer. Rick's development has been all over the place and I firmly believe that he's one of the worst written television characters on a major drama that I've ever seen. He never grows as a character, just alternates between Point A and Point B (being peaceful and overly nihilistic). Hell, half of the characters in the show don't have any personality beyond grunts and angst

 

Do I even need to bring up Lori and Andrea? Or Carl, the second most important character in the series who doesn't even feel like he exists anymore? Or Morgan, who also got "character development" out of nowhere that just doesn't make sense?

 

The show just juggles the same question every season. Should we retain our humanity or survive? What's better. It's pathetic middle-school writing. I'm not saying that that question shouldn't have ever been brought up but we're in the sixth goddamn season and that's the only thing the show bothers to ask because it can't think of anything else to pass off as "deep writing"

 

 

The Governor was cartoonish but he was hardly meant to be deep. He was a threat and he worked effectively as one. He killed half of the main cast and traumatized those remaining. His impact in the comic can still be felt unlike Morrissey who everyone instantly forgot about it once he died. Hell, he wasn't even complex or believable. Many people say the two Governor episodes are the worst in Season 4 by far because they're focusing on a very uninteresting character

 

I disagree with you on Negan but I don't know if you've read any of the recent arcs

 

The Termites were a complete joke in the show and I can't believe you're even bringing up the scavengers as an example considering they had like five lines of dialogue and were killed immediately. The point of the scavengers were how the CHARACTERS reacted to them--Rick, Carl, and Abe. Five lines of dialogue in this case is better than focusing the back half of the season on "claimers" when they're just completely outlandish and their only purpose to the plot to be killed. Hell, the purpose of almost any character in the show wasn't in the comics is just to die. That is frankly shit writing

 

And I also completely disagree about the plot arcs. Every plot arc in the show is there to kill time until the characters move onto a new season. Look at a show like Breaking Bad and how something as small as Skyler's relationship with Ted eventually feeds into the plot in a huge way. Look at TWD in which half a season was wasted on a disease in the prison. What did that contribute to besides Carol's weird serial killing habits being revealed? Hell, what did the Governor contribute to the show? You know, the biggest villain they've had yet? What about the hospital people? The termites? Every plot arc just turns into us vs. them and every group that Rick meets ends up dying. The show is like a record that's just looping over and over. Nothing's changing besides the scenery

 

A perfect example is the Alexandria arc in the show. The point in the comics was to show how effectively Rick's group can affect the people. Rick gets over his regrets of the past and actually steps up as a leader (something that is way less effective in the show since Rick steps up and steps down as a leader all the fucking time. Rick accepting himself as the leader in this situation was built up over many volumes). In the show, it's just all the Alexandrians getting killed. Why care about them? They're redshirts! You see, they haven't been in the outside world and are useless so they're going to die. But Rick's group is survival-hardened and not useless! They can survive! How the fuck is that even a message? It's incredibly cynical

 

Everything in the show is just painfully predictable and it's just a fucking chore to watch. It's so clear that Glenn's going to get killed at the end of the season and then people will be praising the show saying "Wow, we got mad at the writers saying they didn't have the balls to kill off Glenn but they just made this more unexpected!!!!! Incredible writing!" In reality, it's shit, shit writing and no different from Mazarra killing off T-Dog to make Lori's death more shocking (except in this case we wasted several episodes on the mystery of Glenn and severely hurt the show's credibility with this survival)

 

Weird serial killing habits?? Carol isn't a serial killer and it seems you missed the point if that's what you think her character is. Her reasoning may have been flawed, but she thought she was killing them to try to prevent the sickness from spreading. It was also hardly a minor plot point. It was a major plot twist that revealed how much the character had fundamentally changed and that defining moment has shaped her character from here out. 

We've debated about what you call "pointless filler" many times, so I'll try not to be redundant. It isn't filler if any storyline furthers character development, is used to set up a future arc or is just plain entertaining (which is what a TV show is supposed to do). 

The hospital arc may not have been very well written, but it was how we met Noah. Without Noah, they would have never gone to DC. So again, it's not filler if any arc sets up where the story goes in the future.

 

There is no reason to derail another thread with your constant Breaking Bad comparisons, but since you mentioned Ted, I'll add that bringing him back to show him in the hospital was filler that went nowhere.


Edited by Serenity@sea, 26 January 2016 - 12:53 AM.

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#58
JesusMonroe

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Weird serial killing habits?? Carol isn't a serial killer and it seems you missed the point if that's what you think her character is. Her reasoning may have been flawed, but she thought she was killing them to try to prevent the sickness from spreading. It was also hardly a minor plot point. It was a major plot twist that revealed how much the character had fundamentally changed and that defining moment has shaped her character from here out. 

We've debated about what you call "pointless filler" many times, so I'll try not to be redundant. It isn't filler if any storyline furthers character development, is used to set up a future arc or is just plain entertaining (which is what a TV show is supposed to do). 

The hospital arc may not have been very well written, but it was how we met Noah. Without Noah, they would have never gone to DC. So again, it's not filler if any arc sets up where the story goes in the future.

 

There is no reason to derail another thread with your constant Breaking Bad comparisons, but since you mentioned Ted, I'll add that bringing him back to show him in the hospital was filler that went no where.

By technical definition, she is a serial killer

 

And that's my point, it came out nowhere. It could've just as easily been Carl who killed the sick people and it would've made just as much sense. There was no build-up to it and considering how much of Carol's development we skipped from Seasons 2-3 and 3-4, I think it's reasonable to call it out as a plot twist made just for drama

 

Filler is still filler if it's entertaining (which I don't think TWD's is but I digress). Are you really saying that the hospital arc wasn't filler just because we met Noah? Really? We needed to take up 30% of the season just to get a character to bring the other characters to one place? I've said this before but an episode that's 95% filler but has one important plot point is still filler in my eyes, as that plot-point could just be thrown in another episode

 

Here's an idea. The characters end up finding Alexandria on their own--now the hospital arc is pointless. Or better yet, do what the comic did and have Aaron scout them and bring them to Alexandria. No hospital arc. But I guess if we did that, the show couldn't fill its quota of 16 episodes per season

 

I'm not "derailing the thread." I can link you hundreds of essays that analyze a particular story while drawing comparisons from other stories. I'm not gonna view TWD like its in its own little world only to be compared to itself. I'm gonna compare it to other television shows, movies, and even the source material. It's a great way of offering criticism and there's no reason for you to have such an allergy to it. The discussion isn't about Breaking Bad, it's still about The Walking Dead whenever I bring up Breaking Bad

 

Skyler showing up to the hospital is a single scene and it has many purposes:

 

1. It makes Skyler feel as if she's just as much of a monster as Walt is

2. It fuels Skyler's further disenchantment with Walt and her own depression 

3. Leads to the Walt vs. Skyler conflict (the pool scene in "Fifty-One" would've felt like it came out of nowhere otherwise)

4. It concludes the Beneke plotline. If that scene wasn't there, the last we would've seen of Ted is him tripping on a carpet. Breaking Bad made sure to conclude all of its arcs and leave no loose ends at the end. Leaving the Ted question unanswered would've been a bad move (unlike TWD, which just leaves a bunch of stuff ambiguous and hand-waves it away with saying "Hey, that's life. Sometimes you don't have all the answers")


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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#59
Serenity@sea

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By technical definition, she is a serial killer

 

And that's my point, it came out nowhere. It could've just as easily been Carl who killed the sick people and it would've made just as much sense. There was no build-up to it and considering how much of Carol's development we skipped from Seasons 2-3 and 3-4, I think it's reasonable to call it out as a plot twist made just for drama

 

Filler is still filler if it's entertaining (which I don't think TWD's is but I digress). Are you really saying that the hospital arc wasn't filler just because we met Noah? Really? We needed to take up 30% of the season just to get a character to bring the other characters to one place? I've said this before but an episode that's 95% filler but has one important plot point is still filler in my eyes, as that plot-point could just be thrown in another episode

 

Here's an idea. The characters end up finding Alexandria on their own--now the hospital arc is pointless. Or better yet, do what the comic did and have Aaron scout them and bring them to Alexandria. No hospital arc. But I guess if we did that, the show couldn't fill its quota of 16 episodes per season

 

I'm not "derailing the thread." I can link you hundreds of essays that analyze a particular story while drawing comparisons from other stories. I'm not gonna view TWD like its in its own little world only to be compared to itself. I'm gonna compare it to other television shows, movies, and even the source material. It's a great way of offering criticism and there's no reason for you to have such an allergy to it. The discussion isn't about Breaking Bad, it's still about The Walking Dead whenever I bring up Breaking Bad

 

Skyler showing up to the hospital is a single scene and it has many purposes:

 

1. It makes Skyler feel as if she's just as much of a monster as Walt is

2. It fuels Skyler's further disenchantment with Walt and her own depression 

3. Leads to the Walt vs. Skyler conflict (the pool scene in "Fifty-One" would've felt like it came out of nowhere otherwise)

4. It concludes the Beneke plotline. If that scene wasn't there, the last we would've seen of Ted is him tripping on a carpet. Breaking Bad made sure to conclude all of its arcs and leave no loose ends at the end. Leaving the Ted question unanswered would've been a bad move (unlike TWD, which just leaves a bunch of stuff ambiguous and hand-waves it away with saying "Hey, that's life. Sometimes you don't have all the answers")

A serial killer is usually someone who kills for abnormal psychological gratification. If Carol is a serial killer, then so are most of these characters, since most of them have killed someone. And they did set up some clues that built up to the reveal, so it did not come out of nowhere.

 

It would have never worked to have Aaron scout them in Atlanta, since DC was off the table after Eugene's reveal. They wouldn't have left Altanta if not for Noah.

 

The Admin and Mods have determined that it does derail a thread to constantly bring up Breaking Bad or GoT in the forum for The Walking Dead. You are not doing so in context of the show, but only to make a point of how much better you think those shows are. It derails the thread because then people start debating the plot points of those shows, and the thread goes off topic. We have threads to discuss those shows. The rules specifically state to stay on topic.

We have asked you many times not to derail threads but yet you persist in doing so. So, It seems very disrespectful to continue breaking our rules.

 

 


Edited by Serenity@sea, 26 January 2016 - 12:45 AM.

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#60
JesusMonroe

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The killing itself is what came out of nowhere. It doesn't matter if there were clues leading to the killer when I'm talking about the killing itself being out of nowhere

 

And so what? Just do a simple rewrite and have them find out about Eugene when they're closer to DC. Problem solved, filler removed

 

The Admin and Mods have determined that it does derail a thread to constantly bring up Breaking Bad or GoT. You are not doing so in context of The Walking Dead, but only to make a point of how much better you think those shows are. It derails the thread because then people start debating the plot points of those shows, and the thread goes off topic. We have threads to discuss those shows. The rules specifically state to stay on topic.

We have asked you many times not to derail threads but yet you persist in doing so. So, It seems very disrespectful to continue breaking our rules.

Then honestly fuck this place, I'm out. I've been staying on topic, and I have been doing so in the context of TWD. I'm not "proving" that BB and GoT are better, I've compared similar elements across the shows constantly. You were the one who brought up the visit to the hospital just to try and spite Breaking Bad (and I still tied Walking Dead back in when I defended it). I don't care if it's disrespectful to break that rule because that rule is honestly bullshit and it hasn't existed in any other forum that I've been a part of. It painfully shows TWD can't stand up to any TV show with a reasonable amount of good writing


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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#61
Deadpelican

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Filler is still filler if it's entertaining (which I don't think TWD's is but I digress). Are you really saying that the hospital arc wasn't filler just because we met Noah? Really? We needed to take up 30% of the season just to get a character to bring the other characters to one place? I've said this before but an episode that's 95% filler but has one important plot point is still filler in my eyes, as that plot-point could just be thrown in another episode

 

 

 

If they followed the comic almost verbatim, I think they would have run  out of comic material by now.  And honestly, I think that would have been fine. That is, the series ending after maybe five seasons- like certain other shows which I will not call be name because... you know... wanna stay on topic and topic of the forum is Walking Dead. 

 

I think the willful decision to keep the show going for many, many years is the reason for all of the filler. 

 

Having said that, I actually think some of the filler is pretty good.

 

I actually like the Beth/ hospital story arc because  I liked seeing Atlanta again. I liked the idea of a random group of survivors still holed up in a building  and thinking that help was still on the way. 

 

A whole group that had been living in a bubble throughout the whole thing and still didn't understand the extent of the devastation. 

 

What I didn't like is the way that story arc ended. 

 

For me, season six has had the worst filler.  It just feels  really obvious that they are worried about catching up to the comics and running out of  material so they are just adding a bunch of.... stuff. 

 

I didn't have a problem with Carol until the season six mid-season finale. Her actions just don't make any sense to me,but then again, neither do Morgan's. Their conflict, and the situation with the Wolf, just feels like a way to create more drama and draw things out as slow as possible because, like I said, they don't want to use up all the comic material because they want to keep the show going forever. 


Edited by Deadpelican, 26 January 2016 - 12:59 AM.

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 I'm doing the one thing that you can't. You hit them and they get back up. I him them and they STAY DOWN!!! It's permanent!!!


#62
Nareen

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I was interested to read Meesha’s post because most everyone else who has read the comics seems to love them and in many eyes Kirkman can do no wrong.    I have never read the comics, but my sense of them based on what I have heard is much the same as Meesha’s analysis.  Some of the things Meesha cites: “silly, exaggerated still drawings and talk bubbles [which] do not allow for proper development of a serious story or characters.” etc. are why I don’t care for comics in general.   But I am a word and language person anyway so I prefer books.

 

TWD has been damaged by the changes in showrunners, especially Rick’s development.  It does seem to be becoming repetitive but is the comic any different?  The formula for both seems to be for the group to settle somewhere and then find themselves up against the same old walker and human threats, each time on a bigger and more ridiculous scale. 

 

I see a lot of people here who can’t let the comic go when they look at the television series.  For instance the notion that Carl is a major character equal to Rick is just not true of the series, in which Carl is thus far mostly a foil for Rick’s development.  But I can see where comic purists are coming from because I am a decades long passionate lover of Tolkien’s books who had to adjust to the LotR and Hobbit movies, all of which I also love.  Adaptation from one medium to another always means change, sometimes for better sometimes for worse.

 

Maybe there is a just an unbridgeable divide between horror/zombie/comic lovers and those of us who tune in for other reasons.  Maybe the writers of TWD are just not up to the task.


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#63
SpaceBum

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It is because of the comic zealots that I stopped visiting R&L regularly.  I used to visit here after each episode aired to see how other fans reacted.  Unfortunately, every episode review thread this season, including those for Fear the Walking Dead, ended up getting derailed by comic zealots who obviously loathe the show, but still feel the need to pontificate and pollute the TV show threads with their vitriol.  I don't mind constructive criticism--not everybody is going to agree on what is or isn't good about the show--but the zealots just take the hate to whole different level and ruin the atmosphere of the forums. The comics are fine for what they are, but I prefer the TV show.  I will even go so far as to say that the Telltale game is superior to both, but that's just me.  I concur with Meesha1971's and Nareen's observations about the comic.  I'm also not a comic book person, because I find them to be far too limiting as a medium.  If comic books are your thing, then more power to you.  As for me, I simply find the TV show to be more compelling. 


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#64
Dr_Scientist

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Geez some people on this thread are getting salty.  I personally don't think the show or comics are amazingly written.  Sure there are times when one medium shines over the other, but there are also plenty of times when the show writers or RK drop the ball with their respective mediums.  I keep watching the show and reading the comics because I still find it rewarding when a huge payoff occurs in either of them.  But to say that one medium is inferior because they find comics to be nothing except silly images and talking bubbles is quite asinine.  The same goes for those that argue the show is weak because it doesn't match the source material verbatim.  Art is supposed to be subjective to the viewer/reader so I don't really understand why so many people argue over which is better because it's all a matter of opinion.  And let's face it who really cares about any of our opinions anyway; the answer is no one.

 

As for calling the comic readers zealots, that's an uneducated statement.  If you took five minutes to read the comic reviews on R&L then you will see that no one claims RK is a god.  In fact more often than not the readers are displeased with the recent issues as well.

 

Lastly, isn't it kind of ridiculous to say we can't bring up GoT or Breaking Bad for comparison?  Those are considered two of the greatest shows of recent history (some will say of all time), so comparing TWD to them should be a compliment.  Critics and viewers alike compare these shows all the time in reviews and discussions; how is this forum any different?

 

If some people feel called out then I guess I'm sorry, but I personally believe that we all should step off of our pedestal for a second and be a little more objective otherwise this forum is just going to be like reading comments on youtube.


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#65
SpaceBum

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Geez some people on this thread are getting salty.  I personally don't think the show or comics are amazingly written.  Sure there are times when one medium shines over the other, but there are also plenty of times when the show writers or RK drop the ball with their respective mediums.  I keep watching the show and reading the comics because I still find it rewarding when a huge payoff occurs in either of them.  But to say that one medium is inferior because they find comics to be nothing except silly images and talking bubbles is quite asinine.  The same goes for those that argue the show is weak because it doesn't match the source material verbatim.  Art is supposed to be subjective to the viewer/reader so I don't really understand why so many people argue over which is better because it's all a matter of opinion.  And let's face it who really cares about any of our opinions anyway; the answer is no one.

 

As for calling the comic readers zealots, that's an uneducated statement.  If you took five minutes to read the comic reviews on R&L then you will see that no one claims RK is a god.  In fact more often than not the readers are displeased with the recent issues as well.

 

Lastly, isn't it kind of ridiculous to say we can't bring up GoT or Breaking Bad for comparison?  Those are considered two of the greatest shows of recent history (some will say of all time), so comparing TWD to them should be a compliment.  Critics and viewers alike compare these shows all the time in reviews and discussions; how is this forum any different?

 

If some people feel called out then I guess I'm sorry, but I personally believe that we all should step off of our pedestal for a second and be a little more objective otherwise this forum is just going to be like reading comments on youtube.

 

For your information I have read the comics, as well as the infamous thread ("Any Fans Of The Comic Hate The Tv Show?"), which is up to 61 pages as of this writng) in the comics section, and my comments still stand.  There is lots of serious hate for the TV show in that thread, so, I don't know where you get the "uneducated" part from.  Just because someone has a different opinion from yours does not make them uneducated.  Likewise, the criticisms of the comic books made above by meesha1971 are not asinine.  Comic books are not for everyone, for the very reasons mentioned.  You may not like the reasons, but that's simply the way it is.  If you like them, then good for you.  I don't, because I find them too limited.  My brother, in contrast, loves them.  Anyway, my particular beef is with comic fans coming over to the TV show forums to complain about a show that they obviously hate.  It got to the point during the first half of the season when I didn't even bother visiting the show review forums anymore because of comic fans complaining about how the show had ruined their favorite characters or their favorite subplot.  For the record, I don't think the show is perfect.  Far from it.  However, I think a lot of the complaints the show receives are because after 5 1/2 seasons many fans have become jaded.  What was novel during Season 1 is no longer compelling to many people in Season 6.  I get that.  But there is a world of difference between jaded TV show fans and jilted comic book fans who literally hate everything about the show.  Honestly, I don't understand why someone would waste their time getting upset over a TV show.  If you don't like it, then the answer is simple: don't watch it!


Edited by SpaceBum, 16 February 2016 - 04:46 AM.

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#66
Dr_Scientist

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For your information I have read the comics, as well as the infamous thread ("Any Fans Of The Comic Hate The Tv Show?"), which is up to 61 pages as of this writng) in the comics section, and my comments still stand.  There is lots of serious hate for the TV show in that thread, so, I don't know where you get the "uneducated" part from.

 

I got the uneducated part from you not reading the issue reviews (e.g. #whatever to #151).  The comic readers complain about the issues too and not just the tv show.  I never brought up the "Hate the TV Show" thread.  So my comments still stand.

 

Just because someone has a different opinion from yours does not make them uneducated.  Likewise, the criticisms of the comic books made above by meesha1971 are not asinine.  Comic books are not for everyone, for the very reasons mentioned.  You may not like the reasons, but that's simply the way it is.  If you like them, then good for you.  I don't, because I find them too limited.  My brother, in contrast, loves them.  Anyway, my particular beef is with comic fans coming over to the TV show forums to complain about a show that they obviously hate.  It got to the point during the first half of the season when I didn't even bother visiting the show review forums anymore because of comic fans complaining about how the show had ruined their favorite characters or their favorite subplot.

 

I am not bothered by anyone's opinion.  You on the other hand admitted that reading other people's opinions bothered you so much that you stopped visiting a discussion forum.  I'm curious as to what you expect a forum to be.  Do you think everyone is going to agree?  And if they don't agree with you then you can't even stand to visit the website anymore?

 

I think because you felt attacked it kept you from noticing I also defended the show and also called out the readers who complain about it.  I was actually being objective which is hard to come by on R&L.

 

The same goes for those that argue the show is weak because it doesn't match the source material verbatim.  Art is supposed to be subjective to the viewer/reader so I don't really understand why so many people argue over which is better because it's all a matter of opinion.  And let's face it who really cares about any of our opinions anyway; the answer is no one.

 

 

Honestly, I don't understand why someone would waste their time getting upset over a TV show.  If you don't like it, then the answer is simple: don't watch it!

 

I don't know where this comment came from because I already addressed this in my previous post.

 

 I keep watching the show and reading the comics because I still find it rewarding when a huge payoff occurs in either of them. 

 

For example: I enjoyed the most recent episode because No Way Out was my favorite volume.  And yes it was a little different on the show, but I still found the payoffs entertaining and rewarding.  So no, I won't stop watching the show (I don't need you to tell me to stop watching it anyways.)


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#67
AAG331

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Agree with this 100% Sent from my LGLS991 using Tapatalk
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#68
SpaceBum

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Dr_Scientist,

 

Since I don't want to re-quote our entire thread, I'll just respond to each of your most recent comments.

 

You said: "I got the uneducated part from you not reading the issue reviews (e.g. #whatever to #151).  The comic readers complain about the issues too and not just the tv show.  I never brought up the "Hate the TV Show" thread.  So my comments still stand."

 

My original comments had nothing whatsoever to do with comic book issue review threads; they had to do with comic book fans coming over to the TV show forums and blasting the show.  What comic book fans discuss about individual issues in their own forum is completely irrelevant.  When it bleeds over into other venues, then it is.  I understand perfectly well that there is little in the way of consensus over on the comic side of things, but that doesn't explain why so many comic book fans hate the show.

 

You said: "I am not bothered by anyone's opinion.  You on the other hand admitted that reading other people's opinions bothered you so much that you stopped visiting a discussion forum.  I'm curious as to what you expect a forum to be.  Do you think everyone is going to agree?  And if they don't agree with you then you can't even stand to visit the website anymore?

 

I think because you felt attacked it kept you from noticing I also defended the show and also called out the readers who complain about it.  I was actually being objective which is hard to come by on R&L."

 

You claim that you're not bothered by others' opinions, but you obviously cared enough to comment on my characterization of "comic book zealots" as "uneducated", and referred to another poster's comments on comic books in general as "asinine".  That hardly qualifies as an objective opinion.  You came here complaining about the "saltiness" of the comments, and then proceeded to sling insults of your own.  I simply responded in kind.

 

As to the nature of debate on the forums, people are certainly free to vent their spleen and criticize the show.  What bothered me, and why I stopped visiting the forums, was the noise level.  It got to the point where the mods had to step in and ask everybody to tone it down.  When every positive comment about a particular episode was drowned out by three, four, or more highly negative comments, then it simply became a chore to read, and so I stopped.  I like debate, but I don't care for malevolent hatred.

 

You said: "I don't know where this comment came from because I already addressed this in my previous post."

 

It was just a general comment, and not directed at you.  It referred to comic book fans in general who hate the show but come over to the TV show forums anyway.  I apparently failed to make that distinction clear, so I apologize.

 

You said: "For example: I enjoyed the most recent episode because No Way Out was my favorite volume.  And yes it was a little different on the show, but I still found the payoffs entertaining and rewarding.  So no, I won't stop watching the show (I don't need you to tell me to stop watching it anyways."

 

Again, the last part of my previous post was a general observation and not directed at you. Mea culpa for not making that clear.  You clearly stated that you liked the comic and the show, and I applaud you for that.  And, I agree, the last episode and the comic book issue that inspired it were both excellent.

 

I think that we were both talking past each other, but it would have helped if you hadn't taken such a confrontational (e.g., using "uneducated", "asinine") tone to begin with.  I still stand behind my original observation that a few troublemakers from the comic book forum deliberately tried to stir things up in the TV show forum, and the origins of that animus are clearly seen in the original hate thread in the comic forum.  The evidence is plainly there for anybody who cares to look.

 

By the way, I am not the one who downvoted you.  You expressed your opinion, which we should all be able to do, and I didn't feel it was right for me to cast a vote either way.


Edited by SpaceBum, 17 February 2016 - 05:13 AM.

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#69
bdizzle1686

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all I'll say, is to the person who said Comic Andrea is a Mary-Sue-ROTFLMFAO!!! Obviously you forgot about "Daryl Superman Dixon".... he should be the definition of Mary Sue ...
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#70
JacksSurprise

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By technical definition, she is a serial killer

And that's my point, it came out nowhere. It could've just as easily been Carl who killed the sick people and it would've made just as much sense. There was no build-up to it and considering how much of Carol's development we skipped from Seasons 2-3 and 3-4, I think it's reasonable to call it out as a plot twist made just for drama

Filler is still filler if it's entertaining (which I don't think TWD's is but I digress). Are you really saying that the hospital arc wasn't filler just because we met Noah? Really? We needed to take up 30% of the season just to get a character to bring the other characters to one place? I've said this before but an episode that's 95% filler but has one important plot point is still filler in my eyes, as that plot-point could just be thrown in another episode

Here's an idea. The characters end up finding Alexandria on their own--now the hospital arc is pointless. Or better yet, do what the comic did and have Aaron scout them and bring them to Alexandria. No hospital arc. But I guess if we did that, the show couldn't fill its quota of 16 episodes per season

I'm not "derailing the thread." I can link you hundreds of essays that analyze a particular story while drawing comparisons from other stories. I'm not gonna view TWD like its in its own little world only to be compared to itself. I'm gonna compare it to other television shows, movies, and even the source material. It's a great way of offering criticism and there's no reason for you to have such an allergy to it. The discussion isn't about Breaking Bad, it's still about The Walking Dead whenever I bring up Breaking Bad

Skyler showing up to the hospital is a single scene and it has many purposes:

1. It makes Skyler feel as if she's just as much of a monster as Walt is
2. It fuels Skyler's further disenchantment with Walt and her own depression
3. Leads to the Walt vs. Skyler conflict (the pool scene in "Fifty-One" would've felt like it came out of nowhere otherwise)
4. It concludes the Beneke plotline. If that scene wasn't there, the last we would've seen of Ted is him tripping on a carpet. Breaking Bad made sure to conclude all of its arcs and leave no loose ends at the end. Leaving the Ted question unanswered would've been a bad move (unlike TWD, which just leaves a bunch of stuff ambiguous and hand-waves it away with saying "Hey, that's life. Sometimes you don't have all the answers")


Killing w people to try and prevent the spread of a fatal disease makes someone a serial killer? That is in no way the "technical definition" of a serial killer. What an absurd statement.
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#71
JacksSurprise

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If they followed the comic almost verbatim, I think they would have run out of comic material by now. And honestly, I think that would have been fine. That is, the series ending after maybe five seasons- like certain other shows which I will not call be name because... you know... wanna stay on topic and topic of the forum is Walking Dead.

I think the willful decision to keep the show going for many, many years is the reason for all of the filler.

Having said that, I actually think some of the filler is pretty good.

I actually like the Beth/ hospital story arc because I liked seeing Atlanta again. I liked the idea of a random group of survivors still holed up in a building and thinking that help was still on the way.

A whole group that had been living in a bubble throughout the whole thing and still didn't understand the extent of the devastation.

What I didn't like is the way that story arc ended.

For me, season six has had the worst filler. It just feels really obvious that they are worried about catching up to the comics and running out of material so they are just adding a bunch of.... stuff.

I didn't have a problem with Carol until the season six mid-season finale. Her actions just don't make any sense to me,but then again, neither do Morgan's. Their conflict, and the situation with the Wolf, just feels like a way to create more drama and draw things out as slow as possible because, like I said, they don't want to use up all the comic material because they want to keep the show going forever.


That is what I like about the so-called "filler" episodes. Oftentimes we are introduced to new characters or different groups that are surviving the ZA also. Often in very different ways than the main characters. I love most of them for that reason.

Side note- I absolutely cannot stand the way the word filler is used. It's almost exclusively used as a negative way to criticize an episode that a person personally doesn't like. Or used in a way that makes it seem like TWD is the only tv show to use this technique. All shows do this, ALL of them. Even the saintly Breaking Bad. Which in my opinion recieved far more praise than it should. A good show for sure, but the show to be held up as a shining example of how other shows should be viewed? I think not.
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#72
bdizzle1686

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While I'll admit I'm definitely biased as I like the comic much more than the show, even though the shows what got me started on TWD , there's 1 point I must make in this thread as this thread was started in direct retaliation to the thread started years ago in the comic section.

TWD Comic existed on its own very popular WITHOUT the show, HOWEVER, the show would never have EXISTED without the comic.

Edited by bdizzle1686, 28 February 2016 - 09:56 PM.

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#73
Nareen

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That is what I like about the so-called "filler" episodes. Oftentimes we are introduced to new characters or different groups that are surviving the ZA also. Often in very different ways than the main characters. I love most of them for that reason.

Side note- I absolutely cannot stand the way the word filler is used. It's almost exclusively used as a negative way to criticize an episode that a person personally doesn't like. Or used in a way that makes it seem like TWD is the only tv show to use this technique. All shows do this, ALL of them. Even the saintly Breaking Bad. Which in my opinion recieved far more praise than it should. A good show for sure, but the show to be held up as a shining example of how other shows should be viewed? I think not.

 

I agree. It seems to me that filler is also used to describe episodes in which there is not a huge amount of action as in people and walkers being killed.   Bad writing is another term used simply because people don't like plot twists or characterizations.

 

The action based episodes can be great but they would pall if that was all we ever saw.  I love the slower episodes in which we get to know people or the action is psychological.   I liked the illness arc at the prison and, while for me the Grady arc was spoiled by Emily Kinney's acting, I always find it interesting to see different survival strategies.  At Grady we met a group that had strayed into a morally grey zone and didn't even notice when it crossed the line to the dark side.

 

If Carol is a serial killer, so is Rick and many of the others.  Rick in particular has killed people for no good reason.


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#74
I💚Daryl

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I have just started reading the graphic novels. I'm not a huge fan of them so far, though I am interested in how the characters are portrayed. The women are far stronger in the TV show. And I find the dialogue very stilted and unnatural in the comics. It's also painfully clear the comics are written from a very male point of view. I'll keep reading because of my love for the show, but I don't love them. Of course, I could be biased because my favourite character isn't in the comics!
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#75
omegaman

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I have just started reading the graphic novels. I'm not a huge fan of them so far, though I am interested in how the characters are portrayed. The women are far stronger in the TV show. And I find the dialogue very stilted and unnatural in the comics. It's also painfully clear the comics are written from a very male point of view. I'll keep reading because of my love for the show, but I don't love them. Of course, I could be biased because my favourite character isn't in the comics!

 

Would that characters initials be DD?  =)


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