Stereotypes, Ignorance, And Realism Within Twd

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#1
mosher

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Strolling Dead began a discussion in 2012 on this topic, but a lot has changed since then.

Or has it?

I read an article that brings up something we talk about fairly regularly on this forum. It's a flawed article but it brings up a lot of points that get bandied about here.

 

Since we talk about it in some fashion frequently, it seems that it is time to reopen a general discussion on the topic.

Strolling Dead's topic is all I found so I apologize if there is a fresher thread on the subject.

 

The following article is the springboard that made me post this:

http://www.huffingto...anada&ir=Canada

 

I think there are other forces at play than the ones cited but it is still an interesting discussion.

Does TWD need to spread realistic scruffiness across the board?
Are there legitimate aesthetic reasons to continue grooming as they do?
 

The article suggests that women should have armpit hair by now. I agree. But does it matter?

It claims that Glenn's lack of facial hair is akin to Asian emasculation. Is that fair? I don't think so. I think Rick's beard is an outlier and the fact he isn't groomed would be perfectly realistic if the other guys looked that way too. I think the real issue here is inconsistant scruffiness.

The article mentions the quota we all know and cringe at regarding black men.

 

Another view would be that people are just looking for things to be upset about. TWD is clearly a very diverse show, and the characters have moved far beyond season 1's stereotypes. In fact, it is arguable that the stereotypes were intentional in order to show how the people once viewed the world and how they now view the world due to being forced together.

I think the author forced a lot of points to make her point stronger, and that's regrettable, because clearly this is a discussion some of us have on our mind.

 

Anyway, discuss the article, discuss the ideas, or ignore the thread because you're sick of the frequent chatter.

 

Personally, I love the show and think its strengths far outweigh its weaknesses.


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#2
Shane is the Man

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I don't see how Glenn not having facial hair is emasculating. Fact is there are some races that have more or less body hair. Asians and Native Americans have very little compared to say Mediterraneans. That's a fact, so if you are saying that Glenn needs facial hair to be masculine you are in saying that a great deal of Asian men are not masculine. 

I think they all look too clean and well kept. In reality living in a day to day, heck second to second fight for your life would leave very little time for any sort of personal grooming. 


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#3
theglassintheguvseye

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I agree that it is not logical that Rick etc. look unkempt whilst the women are shorn.  Hell, I don't shave ANYTHING if only 2 people are gonna see me (winter).  I can not imagine giving any attention to my pits, legs and bikini line when fighting for my life on a daily basis.  The long haired women have been spoken about at great length here.  Carol has the right look for the ZA but still, her pits are hairless.  One of the more cringe worthy aspects of our groups looks is Daryl's hair.  It's gotten darker instead of lighter in the blistering heat and has a Peter Pan cut that somehow, ruins him for me but whatever. That's just me.

 

Many Asian men are indeed not the growing of an "ironic facial hair" type.  When a man can't grow a full beard, stache, goatee or whatever, they tend to shave or look utterly ridiculous. Glenn's pack may be full of shaving cream.  Maybe all of the post ZA survivor women have had laser hair removal?  IDK but it is a slight annoyance with a show I enjoy a great deal so it's bearable.

 

I do think they're trying to correct the one black man at a time thing though.  Bob and Ty died in a short span to show Sasha's response to a complete and utter loss of loved ones.  That is decent writing to me.  Still, it's something that will keep the black man quota gripes coming.  Sometimes, I think the writers do this kinda stuff on purpose to keep people discussing it.  


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#4
Sanctuary

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As a Reenactment and Living History enthusiast, I am a stickler for authenticity and the grooming state for most of them is certainly not authentic for this stage of a ZA and especially not for the place they are in at the moment. Hair growth in general and styling in particular (Sasha always sports a perfect plaid, Glenn's hair is generally in great shape, don't even get me started on Abe...) are impossible to maintain to this standard with their current lack of time, privacy and resources. Regarding laser hair removal - some hair will eventually start to grow back. Ask how I know :-)
Another thing is their clothes. Yes, they look scruffy and dirty, but change all the time. Subtly, of course, the general style of each characters always stays the same, but outfits change frequently.
This all isn't too bad though, it does not distract me too much.

As for the quota thing - I would never have noticed. A person's race, sexual orientation or religion are of no matter to me. It does not cross my mind to compile any kind of statistics concerning any the above and neither should anybody else.
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#5
KidSeventySeven

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Thanks for keeping this civil and classy so far, guys. This is discussion done right.


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Jon is fine, dammit.

#6
theglassintheguvseye

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I am all about Sanctuary's Abe remarks (can you say Ronald McDonald???) and the fact that laser hair removal, whilst helping the darkest haired women with the 5 o'clock leg and pit shadows has a looong way to go. Rosita's outfits are not beyond ridiculous either.  I did laugh and think of Steven Colbert with the last part of her post.  Need to dig up his: "I don't see color" schtick.  I always loved that one.  It has a ring of "truthiness" to it. :P  I don't care about that crap either  but it does give people something to snipe about.

 

Oops.  Edit if Sanctuary is a "he".  Sorry 'bout that.


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#7
Sanctuary

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Oops.  Edit if Sanctuary is a "he".  Sorry 'bout that.



You guessed right, I'm a girl :-)
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#8
theglassintheguvseye

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You guessed right, I'm a girl :-)

 

Well, I am too.  Welcome to the hairy gals club.  Most folks think I'm a man because I'm so obnoxious.  Another gripe about outfitting... BWR noticed that Maggie's holster was backwards during either the last episode or the one before.  This involved a long, drawn out lecture.  Please, Please, show runners, fix that now.  TYVM. Spare me the pain. :)


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#9
Soaked_Pancakes

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I absolutely understand each one of the gripes brought up in that Huffington Post article. However, I think there's a solid defense for each one of them...

1) Re: women's pits... Well, uh, no one seems to complain about this with the men, and men in general have way hairier pits. None of the men seem to have much pit here. But then again, I think Tyreese and Daryl are the only men to have shown their pits on-screen. Speaking of, just how often do we get to see the women's pits? Carol's worn a tank top in a few episodes of season three (before even Rick's beard reached its full capacity). Maggie's worn tank tops a fair pit. I think that's it? This isn't something we see the show sport very often, and I think asking the actresses' to just not shave their pits is a much impediment on their personal lives than it is on the man to not shave their faces during filming. I think The Walking Dead (as well as Lost and other shows where women shouldn't have been able to shave) skips out on that aspect of the scenario for fear of infringing too heavily on the actors' lives. That's something that you, as a viewer, should be sympathetic to. Appreciate the fact that the producers respect their talent to that degree. Sometimes integrity to authenticity simply isn't reasonable.

 

And before someone raises the point of fake hair, allow me to point in the direction of that awful fake beard they tied around David Morrissey's face last season for the Governor filler episodes. The Walking Dead has a really bad hair styling department.

I just wish they'd grease up the women's head hair more. The men have some nasty looking hair (Rick, Daryl and Eugene especially). The women look like they were just rushed a bit out of the shower. Make the hair grosser ;) Sasha's as bad as Rose on Lost -- a different hairstyle practically everytime we see hair.

2) re: Glenn's lack of facial hair... I think that's just Steven Yeun. I've never seen him with more than a small, light mustache. I'm under the impression he's simply not able to grow much more than that. I imagine Yeun would rather be inappropriately clean-shave for the show than look ridiculous out of the show (where he spends most of his time!) I'm the opposite, though. I'd rather sport my shameful excuse for a beard in the hopes that one day I'm wake up, and suddenly look good with it. I should've auditioned for the role of Noah...

 

Remember, T-Dog had absolutely no hair anywhere. Again, I think that was IronE Singleton's inability to grow any hair.

3) re: Race... I don't know, I still find this to be an odd one. Black characters very much do seem to be replacing one another, but I think it's just one really big and weird coincidence. The writer's are just killing certain character when it seems right to them. Oddly enough, this keeps happening to black characters.

Counter-argument: Beth was the one who died in the episode wherein Noah joins our group. So, uh...? Tyreese died in the next episode. I know that's not a huge difference, so I can see both arguments here.

I think the producers do a very good job at being diverse with their cast. Of course, I'd never say no to more representation to the non-heterosexual middle-aged man group, so please, bring on more cast of other genders, races, sexualities, belief systems, etc. I'll always be up for it. So long as the white guy doesn't begin to outnumber the others too much, I won't be complaining.

 

 

 

 

p.s. Thanks for making me sad about Stephen Colbert again :( Larry Wilmore ain't cutting it.


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Alternatively, you could also just call me Soiled_Panties, on account of how pissy I can be.


#10
Walker_Bait

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It isn't realistic.

 

Another annoying thing is the age differences between the men and women actors.

 

There is a 17 year age difference between actors playing Bob and Sasha and a 26 year age difference between the actors playing Abraham and Rosita. Only a few men under 30 are around while only a few women over 30 are around.

 

There are a little too many May-December relationships despite that being relatively rare in the US. Like the lack of armpit hair, I wouldn't blame the writers specifically as I don’t believe the characters are supposed to have such age disparity.  It’s more casting directors, producers, etc. making these calls.


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#11
Soaked_Pancakes

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Very interesting point, Walker_Bait!

I remember being miffed by Christian Serratos' casting as Rosita almost entirely because I thought the actress to be too young for the character. I always interpreted comic-Rosita as early-30s. Tv-Rosita barely seems to be mid-20s. I also thought Josh McDermitt to be at least a good 5-10 years too young for Eugene. I've kept quiet on those two since the actors are doing just fine in the roles.

I think having such young actresses in relativity to the middle-aged actors has to do with two things that lie upon each other...

1) Culturally, male actors "make it" in their 40s, while female actors are expected to "make it" by their mid-30s.

2) Naturally, as casting agents and directors, they're looking for talent that's could "make it" succeeding their role on this show, or having just off a peak in their career (acquiring an actor during their peak could potentially mean trouble in terms of scheduling the filming of multiple projects). Casting directors have to work off of pre-existing cultural issues, and pander to them.

The Walking Dead's high popularity almost demands that casting be able to appeal to a broad audience and be considered the norm in culture. Although, in their position, I'd argue that the show's massive popularity gives them all the more opportunity to further explore "non-normative" castings.

 

Most of The Walking Dead's casting is done by frequent partners, Sharon Bialy and Sherry Thomas. The two seem to cast a lot of 30-somethings women in most of the show that they work on. I don't know if you can fault them for female characters being too young on The Walking Dead... That may just be direction that producers may have given them.

And in all fairness, Laurie Holden's Andrea, Madison Lintz's Sophia, Emma Bell's Amy, Jane McNeill's Patricia, and Melissa McBride's Carol are all several years older than their comic counterparts.


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#12
StrollingDead

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Strolling Dead began a discussion in 2012 on this topic, but a lot has changed since then.

Or has it?

I read an article that brings up something we talk about fairly regularly on this forum. It's a flawed article but it brings up a lot of points that get bandied about here.

 

Since we talk about it in some fashion frequently, it seems that it is time to reopen a general discussion on the topic.

Strolling Dead's topic is all I found so I apologize if there is a fresher thread on the subject.

 

Don't remember ever  discussing armpit hair... :)

 

One point off the bat: I've lived in East Asia for 30 years, and a lot of East Asian men just don't have noticeable facial hair (though Korean  men tend to be more hirsute than Chinese).

 

The general point about the way women look in the post-Apocalyptic world is true, though TWD is far better than most others, where the women are shown wearing full make-up and lip gloss, with one artful black smudge on the cheek. Though maybe that just reflects male tendencies to be slobs when we can get away with it? I know, I know, stereotyping.

 

In general, the women are also younger and hotter, Carol being the only exception now. As members of the group, we've had Dale, Hershel, T-Dog, Noah, Tyreese, and Eugene  not being in the conventionally young and attractive category ( any Abraham fangirlz?)

 

Racially speaking, the show's made great progress with Michonne, Sasha, Noah and father Gabe- though the walkers still tend to be white (well, greenish-purple off-white). My original complaint was not lack of black characters, but lack of black characters in a show set in Georgia.

 

Though I can see why they'd want to avoid it, realistically speaking there should have been a lot more about religion, politics, racism, and sexism-the violence they've got covered- but then where would our posting policies be? ;)


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#13
StrollingDead

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Another thing is their clothes. Yes, they look scruffy and dirty, but change all the time. Subtly, of course, the general style of each characters always stays the same, but outfits change frequently.
This all isn't too bad though, it does not distract me too much.

 

Well, considering about 95% of the population are shambling around with what they had on the day they turned, there should be plenty of spare clothes out there.


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#14
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Snipped...

Another thing is their clothes. Yes, they look scruffy and dirty, but change all the time. Subtly, of course, the general style of each characters always stays the same, but outfits change frequently.

 

Some characters regularly change their clothes (i.e. Glenn, Maggie, Beth, Michonne, and Carol). Occasionally, Rick and Carl change their clothes. However, other characters (i.e. DARYL, Abraham, and FG) don't. Considering he was wearing them when they found the prison, I would be surprised if Daryl's pants with the torn knees and worn legs above the boots walked to DC all on their own. Not to mention, I don't understand why he doesn't have every skin irritation under the sun after wearing them day in and day out since leaving the prison ~two months ago.


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#15
Nareen

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These are always interesting questions, Mosher, and I think that given the sensibilities of Western culture, unsolvable ones for the makers of popular entertainment.

 

If the women did look like real women would in this situation, with hairy legs and armpits, unplucked eyebrows and absolutely no makeup, half the audience would be saying “Ewww! That’s gross! Where are the hot chicks?”  People don’t realize that for most of human history and for a lot of the world even now, those standards were and are non-existent.  The show producers don’t want to put anybody off, unrealistic as it might be for the women to look the way they do.  Neither do most actresses want to appear as anything but conventionally beautiful; it’s a big part of their stock in trade.   When realism conflicts with perceived sex appeal, realism loses.  Maggie’s first appearance in the first moments of Them was unusual and remarkable IMO. 

 

Women have to be beautiful and that means young in American culture; middle aged women have to look as young as they can by whatever means.   Hollywood is notorious for casting leading men in romantic pairings with women who could easily be their daughters.  TWD is no different.  Except for Melissa McBride and maybe Laurie Holden, almost all of the actresses on the series have been under forty whereas the men have varied in age a lot more.  That’s more of a problem for me than lack of underarm hair but TWD is hardly a progressive series.  However, this is nothing new.  How many pieces of classic English literature are populated by widowers and their adult children? 

 

Look at all the rabid supporters of the Daryl/Beth pairing, which links a middle-aged man with a girl of no more than eighteen.    Abraham and Rosita?   At least she’s an adult woman.

 

IMO a sample of one beardless Asian man indicates nothing.  The producers of TWD have said that both Bob and Noah were intended to be white and either or both Lizzie and Mika were meant to be boys.  If true, they chose the actors they liked regardless of colour or gender and to me that is a good thing.

 

Perhaps the women of TWD are using the same supply razors that some of the men are. ;)

 

I see this kind of lack of reality as falling into the same category as unending supplies of ammunition, potable water and edible food, everybody’s perfect vision, gasoline that is still good and cars that start, vans dropping off bridges and the biggest one of all: that man in a coma can survive unattended for weeks, awaken and be pretty well fully functional right away and, most of all, almost immediately find his family many miles away in one of the handful of surviving groups of people around.   For me these are just narrative conveniences and I don’t care about them.  What interests me is the story: the characters, what happens to them, how they deal with it and what it means.


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#16
mosher

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All fair points Nareen and I imagine that if TPTB tried to go for realism that undermines an actresses 'look' that there might be a lot of push back.

 

I honestly believe TWD is so popular because it is flirting with being a progressive show. The cast is diverse, the characters are generally not racial or gender stereotypes and certainly any stereotyping has been receding fast. It is pushing against adventure series rules as well. They have tried to keep the show from becoming a good vs. evil bore. They have tried to make bad deeds the result of a series of reasonable intentions. Actions have reactions that are generally plausible to some degree. Good people make mistakes and people get hurt. Bad people have reasons for their badness and even sometimes just seem like regular people who have had only one direction they could go.

 

I think a large part of the audience tunes in for the realism and are actually not conscious of the grooming. I had not noticed that the women were so carefully groomed. This is probably because ALL women on tv are carefully groomed. Would the audience balk, or would the audience find it refreshing? Obviously people sit in both camps. For me TWD is about people surviving under extreme conditions. That's it. That's what I tune in for. The exploration of who we are as a species stripped of all the comforts that serve to civilize us. What sort of animal are we really? What would we do to survive and what price is too high. Because of this, I would cheer a show that really pushed people to their base selves. The occasional respite is important- if they never have good moments then the show would no longer be interesting as they eventually all give up. Those respites would serve to return our darlings to their gorgeous selves.

There is a lot of evidence that actors and actresses will allow to 'let themselves go' if it serves the art. The talented actors and actresses are artists first generally. But obviously it's a lot to ask in a field where your next job is based on how cute you are. The question is does the artistic merit outweigh the potential job insecurity. It's a question that only the artist can answer individually. And maybe I'm wrong, maybe the show would tank and careers would suffer.

 

Regardless, it isn't important to me. I don't need the show to change. As long as people are being treated equally regardless of the gender, orientation, or race I am satisfied. But the debate over whether the show could do this better is a legitimate one.


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#17
d2daybreak

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These are always interesting questions, Mosher, and I think that given the sensibilities of Western culture, unsolvable ones for the makers of popular entertainment.

 

If the women did look like real women would in this situation, with hairy legs and armpits, unplucked eyebrows and absolutely no makeup, half the audience would be saying “Ewww! That’s gross! Where are the hot chicks?”  People don’t realize that for most of human history and for a lot of the world even now, those standards were and are non-existent.  The show producers don’t want to put anybody off, unrealistic as it might be for the women to look the way they do.  Neither do most actresses want to appear as anything but conventionally beautiful; it’s a big part of their stock in trade.   When realism conflicts with perceived sex appeal, realism loses.  Maggie’s first appearance in the first moments of Them was unusual and remarkable IMO. 

 

Women have to be beautiful and that means young in American culture; middle aged women have to look as young as they can by whatever means.   Hollywood is notorious for casting leading men in romantic pairings with women who could easily be their daughters.  TWD is no different.  Except for Melissa McBride and maybe Laurie Holden, almost all of the actresses on the series have been under forty whereas the men have varied in age a lot more.  That’s more of a problem for me than lack of underarm hair but TWD is hardly a progressive series.  However, this is nothing new.  How many pieces of classic English literature are populated by widowers and their adult children? 

 

Look at all the rabid supporters of the Daryl/Beth pairing, which links a middle-aged man with a girl of no more than eighteen.    Abraham and Rosita?   At least she’s an adult woman.

 

IMO a sample of one beardless Asian man indicates nothing.  The producers of TWD have said that both Bob and Noah were intended to be white and either or both Lizzie and Mika were meant to be boys.  If true, they chose the actors they liked regardless of colour or gender and to me that is a good thing.

 

Perhaps the women of TWD are using the same supply razors that some of the men are. ;)

 

I see this kind of lack of reality as falling into the same category as unending supplies of ammunition, potable water and edible food, everybody’s perfect vision, gasoline that is still good and cars that start, vans dropping off bridges and the biggest one of all: that man in a coma can survive unattended for weeks, awaken and be pretty well fully functional right away and, most of all, almost immediately find his family many miles away in one of the handful of surviving groups of people around.   For me these are just narrative conveniences and I don’t care about them.  What interests me is the story: the characters, what happens to them, how they deal with it and what it means.

 

I wonder if the women have to be beautiful is really true or just another stereotype/perception that continues to be portrayed on TWD. I say this because currently the lead character on How to Get Away with Murder, Annalise Keating played by Viola Davis, is often depicted without makeup. TPTB made a bold move and made her face look rather drab and significantly less beautiful than her previously made up self and it works. The show is still bringing in over 8 million viewers weekly. Here are some pics showing the difference:

 

howtogetawaywithmurder_viola-davis-wig.j    ewbfkyveg15sx7rnxmx3.png

 

61.jpg?1422900564

 

 

Here are also to articles on the subject:

http://tvline.com/20...ormance-htgawm/

http://www.unapologe...et-away-murder/

 

Viola Davis is a beautiful, in-demand, tony award winning, oscar-nominated actress. The scenes have not hurt her career. Lila & Eve premiered at the Sundance Film Festival last month and is the front runner to play Amanda Waller in Suicide Squad.

 

As far as Bob and Noah characters originally being white, the character of Bob on the show was loosely based on a comic character of similar name. The comic character was white. There isn't a comic character named Noah, so I am not sure where this comes from. I also think that it is rather inconvenient (or convenient depending on your perspective) that these decisions were made in light of the quota perception.

 

I will say that I think the group has grown to the size that it has in response to TPTB diversifying the cast. This is preferable than reducing the numbers of white male cast members. I also am beginning to wonder if the quotas don't just apply to black males anymore (T-Dog --> Oscar --> Tyreese/Bob --> Tyreese/FG --> FG/Noah). I say this because the numbers in various ways are starting to stabilize now that the cast has diversified. For instance, in the S4 midseason finale, we lost Hershel and TG (white males). The next episode, we gained Abraham and Eugene (white males). Beth (young white woman) was kidnapped and never fully returned to the group, but when the group reconnected Beth was gone, Tara (young white woman) was added. The number of black women (Michonne and Sasha) and Asian males (Glenn) remains constant--none lost, none gained. So, it appears that quotas may not apply to just black males. Quotas may just be the way it is for diversity on TWD now.

 

I think Aaron's arrival will be telling. If Aaron (white male) joins the group, who will we lose if anyone. Or will the group grow once again?


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#18
Mr. NomNom

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To be honest. I get some of the points but it doesn't bother me.

For the shaving i once read i believe maybe two apoc books that touched very little on it but some people would shave because it was an ordinary thing they did in life and they wanted something "normal" this could be stuff that happens off screen. Again it doesn't bother me.

As for types....everyone is mad that we get fewer black people...how about the fact we have only had one asian and almost no latino characters? Yea i get that they are in Georgia, but we have learned people moved around when this happened.

Now i won't get in the racial and stereo type stuff. I would put stuff down but it just sounds like i am racist and i stereo type no matter how i try to word it so i won't.

Also...are we forgetting there are a lot of white people....like a lot...why? Because, our country has a lot of white people....like i said people moved around....so not seeing so many blacks is realistic.

As for the qouta thing. Whatever. The only thing i'm mad about is that most of the characters they killed off i never felt anything for. They need to get Glenn to do something because i haven't cared for him lately...or Maggie.
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#19
zack

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I'm more interested in how the characters interact with each other. I don't need to see hairy armpits or legs.  I will say that when the actresses appear on The Talking Dead, some of them are so glamorous that I barely recognize them as the characters they play on the show.

 

I also watch How To Get Away With Murder.  Think it's sad that Annalese (Viola Davis) has to wear a wig, false eyelashes, makeup, etc. to face the world.  Think that she is a beautiful woman without all that.


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#20
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I feel that some of the road weary should be shown at this point because in reality you would be seeing more males not shaving as well as females.  The group have gone several days without water so the hair for all should be greasy and just dirty from sleeping on the ground in general.  All hair will pick up leaf debris, dirt, straw whatever as well as mens beards.   I wouldn't have minded them showing Rick's group that dirty for a few shows to really sink it in how bad it got for them. 

 

They also rarely show the women with a lot of dirt on them.  Some scenes last year on the road but not too many this year.  They all wouldn't look that clean.  Of all the men Daryl is the most dirty and as Day2 said his clothes can walk on their own.  Fr. Gabe and Abe aren't too far behind Daryl.  As for the women, I'd have to say that Michonne is in the same outfit a lot and they look as though they are nearing the point of dirtiness.  As they have arrived at ASZ I fully expect these days to leave so its time for them all have that fresh clean Aaron look about them.

 

I can't wait to see Rick without his beard.  I hope they all hogtie Daryl, shave his head, force him to bathe and then flea dip him before putting him in a new set of jeans.  Also can't wait to see Gabe in anything other than a black shirt and pants and Abe needs to stop wearing the wife beaters and Army pant all the time.  I would also love to see Michonne is anything other than the vest and pants she has been wearing for 2 years.  Rosita is the runner up in this category as its time for her to give the army look as well. 

 

I suspect that we will now be getting all the new redshirts that will continuously be biting the dust from hear on out.  Hopefully it will continue to a diversified group and maybe our main characters can be saved for a few more years since they've already killed off 3 (but I won't be holding my breath on this issue).

 

I have my irks with the show but as the OP stated the good outweighs the bad most of the time but I'll continue to hope that improvements will be made.


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#21
Narren

Narren

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Why is it unreasonable to assume that they could find some razors and shaving cream? Maybe it's doubtful that they'd care, but it's not like they're on a deserted island.
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