Thieves: Kill, Punish Or Mercy?

- - - - - Noah Season 5

#26
Thudd

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First of all, you're assuming I think the end of humanity is a bad thing. Not smart to make assumptions. Second, how are you going to tell the good from the bad? TWD is TELEVISION. You cannot base real-world notions on television, unless you have a death wish. As to biodiversity and all that, survival in the moment trumps all. If you were part of my group, and expressing these ideas, I'd tell you it's up to you to figure out if those people won't kill YOU. You want to trust people, you can be the welcome wagon, but you better figure them out AND disarm them before you reveal the location of the camp. 

 

My, my, my, aren't we bloodthirsty! Besides, I don't think you understand, tv or movies...it's ALL Hollywood! Using one to discredit the other is contradictory. I suggest a Psychology 101 class at a local college.

 

Aside from that, were I Carol, I probably would have.

 

Still, Noah told them, "I need weapons!" Then, looking directly at Daryl just before he let the walkers out, he said, "You look like you're tough!" He wasn't going to or trying to kill them. He didn't know the connection between D&C and Beth, he just wanted the weapons to save her.


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#27
KidSeventySeven

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Remember when he murdered that tank guy in cold blood at the prison? Daaaaang

 

Tank guy drove a damn tank into his front yard, blew away his home and killed his people...plus he was extra sassy when Rick and the Gov were chatting. So yeah, I would've murdered the shit out of that dude, too.  :srug: 


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Jon is fine, dammit.

#28
PlaneJane21

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Um, you forget, they made their place a 'sanctuary," and many were raped and slaughtered by some other bad people. Their mistake was trusting ANYONE not already in the group. Had they walled the place up, kept to themselves, not advertised they were there and not welcomed strangers, NONE of the Terminus story would have happened the way it did. You're talking about the difference between television and reality. In reality, you kill everyone you can, because everyone is a threat. If you go in with the "everyone is innocent until proven guilty" idea in that context, it's a quick slide down a short hill into the mouth of hell. Conversely, I'd kill anyone who tried to welcome me or my group in. For the same reasons. Steal their resources. Why POOL resources, when you can take them ALL for yourself? 

Y'all don't understand, TWD is television. In human reality, things would be horrifyingly different. Just people would be horrifying. Go see the movie "Apocalypse Now," and watch the sampan scene. 

 

The most important resource you can possibly have in a bad situation is people.

 

I've been through a disaster before, a 7.0 earthquake when I lived in California. We were without power and water for weeks, store shelves were empty for a while, and emergency personnel were far too busy pulling people out of collapsed buildings to be able to police us. You want to know how we behaved? The exact opposite of the way people behave in the movies during a disaster.

 

The vast majority of people were at their very best. Our whole neighborhood banded together and took care of each other, and we were not a tight-knit community before the quake. People who had surplus supplies shared them. A guy who had a generator let people use it to charge their batteries. He also brought a TV outside so that the whole neighborhood could watch the news, and we were all very surprised to discover that we were among the last people on earth to find out that the Berlin Wall had come down. We had been so cut off that we were completely unaware that a major historical event had taken place.

 

For the most part, people were calm and helpful. We would stand in long lines that stretched around the block waiting to be let into stores to buy supplies. People stood in line patiently and filed into the stores in an orderly manner. No one fought over the items on the shelves. Total strangers would share their stories with each other and help each other out.  There were no police to be seen anywhere. We didn't need to be policed; we policed ourselves.

 

People were actually more friendly and generous during that time than they were before it happened, or afterwards once things returned to normal again. Of course, there was a small percentage of people who looted, but even during the best of times, there will be criminals. However, the overwhelming majority behaved in such a noble manner that it was surreal. The disaster brought out our "better angels". 


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#29
Rocketman637

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Tank dude was just another sucker for Phillip's lies.... poor bastard


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#30
Bitergram

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I would not have blocked the shot, she even said she was aiming for his leg. If it would have hit he would have dropped and then BAM the 3 questions..


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#31
PlaneJane21

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So with Noah, not considering information found out later, was Daryl right in stopping Carrol from killing Noah? What would you do? Would your decision be different with the perp's age?

 

OK, now that I've rambled my face off, I'll answer the question. I think Daryl was right to stop Carol from shooting at a young guy who was all alone, clearly wounded, desperate, and not malicious. I would not have shot Noah or allowed anyone else to shoot him either. I probably wouldn't be above punching him in the face though after catching up with him again.

 

I suppose to some extent the perp's age would influence my decision, not much, but a bit. It's easier to forgive a youth for doing something rash than an older person. 


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#32
jldtsu

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Noah aint that young...He's old enough to know what he was doing, and to unleash a few walkers as a distraction. We're not talking about a 10 year old here.


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#33
jldtsu

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It was obvious that he did not want to kill. In this world everyone is a thief. Everyone, if necessary. Daryl and Carol both would have done the same thing Noah did in the same situation. But they might have made more certain they weren't chased. Hard to assign a moral high ground when you know you're no different. 

 

What makes you think that?

 

Who have they stolen from?


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#34
jldtsu

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I'm not. I'm killing them all and taking my chances. Remember the Monty Python skit about the advantages of not being seen? There was a lesson in there, for those smart enough to see it. 

so at what point in the apocolypse do you start shooting people on site? day 3? day 7? day 30? what if there is a cure? you just gunned down innocent people because....you got trigger happy?


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#35
Rocketman637

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Earthquake guy, I'm very glad y'all banded together. The human spirit is still pretty strong. But what happens when people start to get hungry and are dying from third world viruses and what not. Katrina. Them idiots were firing on the National Guard choppers bringing them supplies. When the rescue workers don't show, or are overwhelmed, and the federal government can't respond quickly or has more on their plate it will get ugly, fast.


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#36
Serenity@sea

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Earthquake guy, I'm very glad y'all banded together. The human spirit is still pretty strong. But what happens when people start to get hungry and are dying from third world viruses and what not. Katrina. Them idiots were firing on the National Guard choppers bringing them supplies. When the rescue workers don't show, or are overwhelmed, and the federal government can't respond quickly or has more on their plate it will get ugly, fast.

There were also thousands of stories during Katrina of people banding together and saving lives. I experienced this first hand. I volunteered with the Red Cross and was sent to the Gulf to help out.

 

 

ETA: Another prime example of this was the events of Sept. 11, 2001. Initially, I think most tragedies bring us together.


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#37
GirlsDeadMonster

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Noah could have killed them since he had the advantage. Since he didn't pull the trigger right away I would take that into consideration. Of course, taking someone's weapons in this world is equivalent to trying to kill them but so is shooting someone in the leg (ie Otis). If Carol shot him, he would eventually die if you can't outrun the walkers. That's probably worse than taking someone's weapons. If they had killed him, they wouldn't have found out for sure Beth was at the hospital.


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I don't have to outrun walkers, I just have to outrun you!
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#38
Dr_Scientist

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In any kind of apocalyptic event taking someones supplies is practically a death sentence. It would seem unlikely to me for a thief to steal weapons from other survivors and not finish the job (especially if they have seen your face). It would be more of a risk to leave them alive and seeking retribution.  I would also think the same goes for other survivors encountering thieves, you can't afford to have anything come back to bite you. Then again not all people in the ZA are on the same level of brutality.


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#39
DominusPisces

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Tank dude was just another sucker for Phillip's lies.... poor bastard

 

Tank Dude let his brother's murder go. Sorry but if I was tank dude... I would have agreed to TG to his face and as soon as his back was turned plugged him. Tank Dude deserved to get plugged by the people he was trying to murder.

 

I would have shot at Noah, not for vengeance but because I needed my supplies. If I missed and found him later under the book case I would have helped him out. As an aside.. did anyone else laugh at talking dead when they labeled the walker on the book case as "Noah Looks Delicious Walker"?


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Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord these bites aren't deep.
Should I die before I wake, I pray thee Lord, my skull they break.


#40
QueenQueso

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This particular scene should not have happened. I knew when Carol was really awkwardly putting her stuff through and climbing out facing the wall instead of potential danger that someone was about to grab her rifle. Also knowing that Noah was the one following them, I knew it would be him and that would be how they found out about Beth. But still, she definitely should've looked out BEFORE climbing through. What if those tents had ripped and the trapped walkers were loose already? They'd have bitten her before she even realized they were there. That was as stupid as when Daryl opened the door of the mortuary without looking through the gaps in the wood.

 

And even once he had her rifle, if they'd have both rushed him at once, he would've panicked and ended up loosing the rifle back to them.

 

That said, if it was a different situation and an actual bad guy had actually gotten the upper hand, then yes, they should've killed him. A known thief who set walkers on them cannot be trusted to not do it again. Maybe in the early days, when they thought a cure might still come, but not now.


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#41
Creeper

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I wouldn't have killed him.  I wouldn't have "punished" him either, except with my distrust.  Noah's actions would definitely earn him some probation time with me, while I watched him and figured out whether he was a real threat or if he was just desperate and stupid.  I wouldn't have a problem(in this hypothetical world where I'm actually tough  :P ) killing him if I felt that he actually wanted to kill me, or planned to do it later.  But we know that isn't the case with Noah, and I think it would be a mistake to kill someone like that because he acted rashly.  This sounds a little twisted..but Daryl and Carol are both capable and if I was as capable as they are, I think I'd be willing to give someone who is not outright trying to kill me or doing anything too odd the benefit of the doubt...you can always kill them later.  :)

 

And even if I did think he needed to die, I would never leave someone to be eaten alive by walkers unless it was literally me or them.  I'd save him then and then kill him later, fast. 


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#42
mosher

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What makes you think that?

 

Who have they stolen from?

I did not say they have stolen, I said they would steal. 

 

I believe this because that is what I have been taught about these characters by the actors and writers of TWD. Carol killed to keep the majority alive- robbery is a smaller deal. Daryl will do what he has to do to save Beth.

 

Neither Carol or Daryl will choose to starve or allow friends to suffer when they can rob someone for what they need. 

 

Maybe I should say obvious to me. It's not like it was explicitly stated, it is my understanding of the situation.


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#43
jldtsu

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I did not say they have stolen, I said they would steal. 

 

I believe this because that is what I have been taught about these characters by the actors and writers of TWD. Carol killed to keep the majority alive- robbery is a smaller deal. Daryl will do what he has to do to save Beth.

 

Neither Carol or Daryl will choose to starve or allow friends to suffer when they can rob someone for what they need. 

 

Maybe I should say obvious to me. It's not like it was explicitly stated, it is my understanding of the situation.

its clear that they will kill someone who is a direct threat to them. but i dont know if they're to a point where they'd steal from someone who wasn't causing them harm. not yet anyway. at the most, it would be some type of trade off. Rick's group took food from father Gabriel, but they gave him protection in return.


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#44
hannsg

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Tank Dude let his brother's murder go. Sorry but if I was tank dude... I would have agreed to TG to his face and as soon as his back was turned plugged him. Tank Dude deserved to get plugged by the people he was trying to murder.

 

I would have shot at Noah, not for vengeance but because I needed my supplies. If I missed and found him later under the book case I would have helped him out. As an aside.. did anyone else laugh at talking dead when they labeled the walker on the book case as "Noah Looks Delicious Walker"?

 

Well, I'm a real tough guy on the internet, so I KNOW I would totally kill that kid.

 

But seriously, its not that he took my weapons, I could actually empathize with his situation.

 

It was that he was so smarmy while doing it. What a little prick! (plus, I have the knowledge that he totally ditched Beth last time we saw him).

 

This character is not looking good. I imagine Beth will have something to say about his teamwork skills.

 

In the heat of the moment, I may hurt him. ESPECIALLY after he sicks those walkers on me. 

 

The only reason Daryl didn't kill him, really, is because of plot.

 

Remember when he murdered that tank guy in cold blood at the prison? Daaaaang

 

 

Tank guy drove a damn tank into his front yard, blew away his home and killed his people...plus he was extra sassy when Rick and the Gov were chatting. So yeah, I would've murdered the shit out of that dude, too.  :srug: 

 

Tank dude was just another sucker for Phillip's lies.... poor bastard

His NAME WAS MITCH DOLGEN    :mad2:  :mad:


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#45
DominusPisces

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His NAME WAS MITCH DOLGEN    :mad2:  :mad:

His NAME was Robert Pulson.


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Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord these bites aren't deep.
Should I die before I wake, I pray thee Lord, my skull they break.


#46
Serenity@sea

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His NAME was Robert Pulson.

If you mean the actor who played him, it was Kirk Acevedo.


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#47
mosher

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its clear that they will kill someone who is a direct threat to them. but i dont know if they're to a point where they'd steal from someone who wasn't causing them harm. not yet anyway. at the most, it would be some type of trade off. Rick's group took food from father Gabriel, but they gave him protection in return.

Noah robbed them to save Beth. 

 

They couldn't know that, but they did see two things:

 

1) Noah did not kill them. In fact, he left them armed. The zombies weren't a real threat.

2) Noah is not a habitual thief. A habitual thief would never leave his target armed, angry, and able. 

 

All evidence says killing Noah would be a waste of energy and bullets, and even possibly the loss of a potential ally. Someone asked how you can tell who's a keeper and who you should kill. Noah was a perfect example of how you can tell.

That told Daryl and Carol both that he was good people. Carol, as is true to her character, would have shot him to get her stuff back. Daryl, thankfully, is softening and letting people in. Otherwise he would have let her shoot Noah.

 

Carol and Daryl both would steal from someone who was not a threat, they just need sufficient reason. They both would have done what Noah did if they thought it would help them save Beth. 


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#48
Clidna

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His NAME WAS MITCH DOLGEN    :mad2:  :mad:

 

 

His NAME was Robert Pulson.

 

 

His NAME was Patrick Madden!


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#49
KidSeventySeven

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If you mean the actor who played him, it was Kirk Acevedo.

 

He was making a Fight Club reference.  ;) 

 

These last few posts have me rolling, guys.


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Jon is fine, dammit.

#50
Serenity@sea

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He was making a Fight Club reference.  ;) 

 

These last few posts have me rolling, guys.

I had a feeling I was missing a reference. I even googled it and nothing came up. :D

Now I get it. :blush:


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