Issue 124 Review

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#126
supersutton

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^^^

 

Hollywood. That is I fear this will end. Hollywood. That one word is the gist of the problem for me for AOW and the March to War and maybe even a bit before that.

 

Twice we've had Hilltop armies arrive out of the fucking blue to save Rick's ass. We've also of recent had Saviors suddenly become Annie Oakley's shooting guns out of peoples hands. We've had Andrea, my favorite character, somehow kill a guy she had no business killing. I don't read TWD to see Michael Bay hack shit like that, or to fucking Tigers. I read the TWD because Kirkman has taken genre and turned it into powerful literature. And, zombies aside, the story has also always been pretty realistic with how it deals with things. Things like Carl killing Shane, Rick watching his wife and daughter be gunned down, Billy/Ben, situations like that (and the zombies) are why I read the Walking Dead. Even when the comic stretched the realism in the past with parts of the Gov and No Way Out arcs it still all seemed plausible. That's my biggest complaint, my only complaint really, is that RK seems to have forsaken realism for Hollywood bullshit.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I'm very, very worried for the end of the war, as I seriously cannot imagine it being resolved in a way that feels like TWD - that is, gritty, realistic and HEAAAVVYY. By this point, there are very few options left for Kirkman to deliver the deaths we've been expecting for a long time in a manner that is convincing and satisfying. I hope these last two issues aren't simply jam-packed with major character deaths; that felt natural in the prison arc because of the nature of the conflict, but the way AOW has unfolded has, to me, felt pretty contrived and alternately too predictable to be excited about and too ridiculous to take seriously. You're totally right about the issue of plausibility - too many implausible things have happened leading up to/during the war. When the Alexandrians had their guns shot out of their hands, I screamed at the page. Obviously, Kirkman needed Negan to learn of Rick's intentions and gain the upper hand while revealing his meticulous planning by the end of that issue, and there was a way to organise that series of events in a believable way. Instead he opted for the one that trolled us AND stretched our suspension of disbelief to breaking point simply to progress the narrative to where he wanted it to be. The writing's simply lazier than it used to be.


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#127
theblackboxlies

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#128
Kursk

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Personally I don't need or want to see our A-list characters get decimated. That's not the standard by which I judge the story. We'll probably get at least 1-2 and yea there's a lot of ways this could end that would feel very contrived. Its "too Hollywood" is probably the best and shortest way to describe people's primary complaints with this arc and I basically agree with that.


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#129
Cthulhu42

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Personally I don't need or want to see our A-list characters get decimated. That's not the standard by which I judge the story.

Agreed. The issue I have regarding any potential deaths in this arc is that almost all the characters whose deaths would actually have a big impact on me are ones I think it would be a mistake to kill off at this point in the story, while any characters I think it would be fitting to kill are ones I don't really care about. I can't really see any deaths like Hershel's or Dale's happening in AOW - deaths which managed to be impactful and emotional while still feeling like a fitting end to the character's story, and that's pretty disappointing.

Basically what I want out of the arc at this point death-wise is a purge of all the pointless C-list characters, so we can focus on a much smaller group of core characters.
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#130
JesusMonroe

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Agreed. The issue I have regarding any potential deaths in this arc is that almost all the characters whose deaths would actually have a big impact on me are ones I think it would be a mistake to kill off at this point in the story, while any characters I think it would be fitting to kill are ones I don't really care about. I can't really see any deaths like Hershel's or Dale's happening in AOW - deaths which managed to be impactful and emotional while still feeling like a fitting end to the character's story, and that's pretty disappointing.

Basically what I want out of the arc at this point death-wise is a purge of all the pointless C-list characters, so we can focus on a much smaller group of core characters.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts.

 

I always thought Holly was ok. What happened to her was absolutely crazy and fucked up and I actually got a little sad over it. I never gave a shit about Denise, but I thought her last moments with Heath were actually one of the more poignant ones of the series and her choosing his life over her own was very noble

Spoiler

Assuming we are going to get a huge bloodbath in issue 125, then I think it's a big mistake for Kirkman to save all the deaths for that point. Axel was a minor character but I liked him so I cared when he died, even though his death wasn't that great. If you want me to give a shit about B-List characters dying (Holly, Denise), then give them a really memorable death. However, saving a bunch of characters to get massacred in one issue won't give them a memorable death. They'll have a page or two dedicated to them and then the readers will move on


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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#131
DaneBramage

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Decimation by definition means 10% of the population dies. Not bad in this scenario. Unless it's the central 10%......


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#132
Edocil

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I am loving Euge more and more every issue.


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#133
moop420

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Negan is the only A-list death I want to see.

 

My A-list though is pretty short: Rick, Carl, Andrea, Michonne, Maggie, Sophia, Negan

 

The Euge looks like he might be getting promoted to the A-list. I consider Dwight, Zeke,Rosita, and the Alexandrians B-listers. Jesus is still more of a prop than a character in my eyes. I can take him or leave him.


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#134
JesusMonroe

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I did this before but I guess it's time for an update (Maggie was B-List on my previous list)

 

A-List: Rick, Carl, Andrea, Michonne, Maggie, Negan

B-List: Eugene, Dwight, Sophia, Heath, Ezekiel, Jesus, Gregory 

C-List: Olivia, Harlan Carson, Carson, Rosita, Father Gabriel, Nicholas, Sutton

D-List: Paula, Mikey, Amber, Mark, Erin, Marcus, other miscellaneous Hilltop and Kingdom soldiers

50 Feet of Crap-List: 50 Feet of Crap

The List Below the 50 Feet of Crap-List: Zombies, Barbara

 

You could argue that some people in the C-List deserve to be on B and vice versa, but not everybody is equal in their respective tier. Olivia and Nicholas are strong C-Listers while Gregory is a weak B-Lister


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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#135
Edocil

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Where is Aaron on your list? also speaking of Aaron, where the hell did he go. Am I the only one bothered that one minute Nicholas and Aaron are with Rick and the next, Aaron is just fucking gone.


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#136
Pickles312

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Yeah, where the hell did Aaron go. One minute he's about to go rambo on the saviors and then he's not in the next issue at all. Really weird...


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#137
Cthulhu42

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You forgot Aaron in your list, Jesus. Edit: Ninja'd; I guess I'm not the only one who noticed.

And Euge definitely deserves a promotion to A-list after AOW is done; I'd hate for him to fade back into the background after his recent displays of badassitude.
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#138
JesusMonroe

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Shitsnacks. Aaron is B-List
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Imagine a group of a hundred motorcycles driving down a freeway. Eventually, they hit a junction. One road goes northwest and the other goes northeast. So one guy, we'll call him S, says, "Let's go northwest!" A mile past the intersection, a semi careens into the group and kills ninety of them. Ten are wounded, but they survive and keep going. Eventually, they hit 10,000 miles. S suddenly has his consciousness thrown into his past body right before the junction. Now, he says, "Let's go northeast!" All 100 bikers survive. Happily ever after, right? But what about the ten, no nine, who went northwest and survived? What happens to the reality they were living? Does it just disappear now that S has changed the past? It's not like only bad things happened on that 10,000 mile journey. Maybe one of them fell in love with a gas station attendant and got her pregnant or maybe one adopted a homeless kid that joined the adventure. That 10,000 mile journey would be full of stories. Romances, farewells, friendships...the loss of those ninety lives is horrible and unfortunate, but what would rewriting their history mean? The nine who survived lived full lives and did the best they could with the hand they were dealt. How could it be right to just erase all that? Isn't that worth something? Is there a point to a world where everything is happy? Are people who struggle for a better life just idiots? Being human is about fighting even when it seems hopeless and finding happiness in a world that hates it. Are you saying that's worthless?


#139
supersutton

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I apologise for the whine... It does sound pretty shitty now I read back over it. I wasn't trying to get all Negative Nelly up in yo forum but I've just been pretty disappointed with the way AoW has panned out so. Perhaps the pacing and so on will make more sense as one cohesive arc once it's all published? I had the benefit of being able to read right up to #96 without having to wait for individual issues, and the evolution of the characters (which is the real heart of the book) does happen over pretty long periods of time. I guess by this stage I'm just a bit underwhelmed with the way the conflict has played out, it feels to me as though the entire story from the point where the Saviours were introduced could have been condensed somewhat so there was more of a sense of perpetual tension and imminent threat from Negan. Plus things like his continued survival despite being in the midst of bullet storms on numerous occasions since issue 114, the novelty and intrigue of Shiva undermined by her lackluster panel time and unexpected death not long after her introduction, the numerous redshirt deaths giving the sense that the mains are either untouchable or are being set up for a massacre... Again, it just feels like there are too many inconsistencies in all these moving parts at this point in the comics for me to feel as involved in the characters' struggles as I'd like to. I think the lasting affect of Glenn's brutal murder still resonates with us readers as the main causative factor of this war, and at its core the conflict is about Rick, our main protagonist for over 100 issues, proving that there is still merit in hope and personal autonomy in the face of seemingly irrepressible control. Rick has become a figurehead for all of the communities to unite under a common cause, but because their introduction and unification under him has, in the greater scheme of the comic, been quite brief because Kirkman suddenly had so many different characters and locations to attend to in order to set up this large scale conflict, we haven't had enough time to invest in the greater struggle as we did in Rick's absolute horror at Glenn's death. This makes sense to me because it explains why so much of this conflict has felt drawn-out and superfluous to what I believe is the real struggle Kirkman is trying to investigate on a narrative level: how far Rick will go to overcome insurmountable odds and reinstate the sense of hope the trajectory of Glenn's character provided in the series. To me, his absence is still felt. Sure, all of the communities want Negan gone, but the beef these two have with one another is the most interesting thing about the whole conflict because of the manner in which is began.

Some more thoughts: Both leaders desire control to varying extents - whereas Rick wants control of how he lives his own life but has assumed the mantle of leader for so long that he needs to be seen to be responsible for providing that same freedom to those around him to feel satisfied, Negan thrives on being seen enforcing his superiority over others, thus proving that his methods of life work to help his group survive from a purely utilitarian standpoint and that they would cease to function without his dominance. Negan needs to see those he dominates FEEL dominated, which is why Rick and his son have become such fascinations to him - he could kill them brutally and efficiently, but as demonstrated beyond doubt in 124, he would much rather demoralise Rick and destroy the message of hope he embodies in order to reinstate his dominance. Proving that he is able to maintain power is more important to him than raw displays of power, although he does seem to enjoy both. Both leaders threaten each other's long established methods of dealing with life in this new world, but we're seeing the effects of that struggle take their form through horrible things happening to characters we're just not that invested in... Which kinda undermines the amazing relationship Kirkman built between Rick, Negan and Carl leading up to the war in my opinion. Carl's desire to prove his capabilities to his father and Negan's admiration of him, followed by his safe return to Rick simply to prove a point, was incredibly interesting to me from a psychoanalytic perspective so I'm kinda disapointed that the actual depiction of the eventual conflict has become less personal and diluted amongst elements that don't captivate me as much as that dynamic did. I feel like there was a lot more to explore there. That's my take on this whole shibang anyway. I'm very exited to see where this series goes after AoW wraps up, I have absolutely no idea what to expect from these next two issues.


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#140
DaneBramage

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Nice catch of Aaron- wonder if Jesus saw the camp Negs had set up and Aaron went to investigate. Is there a surprise waiting for Negs at the rendezvous point?


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#141
Kursk

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I did this before but I guess it's time for an update (Maggie was B-List on my previous list)

 

A-List: Rick, Carl, Andrea, Michonne, Maggie, Negan

B-List: Eugene, Dwight, Sophia, Heath, Ezekiel, Jesus, Gregory 

C-List: Olivia, Harlan Carson, Carson, Rosita, Father Gabriel, Nicholas, Sutton

D-List: Paula, Mikey, Amber, Mark, Erin, Marcus, other miscellaneous Hilltop and Kingdom soldiers

50 Feet of Crap-List: 50 Feet of Crap

The List Below the 50 Feet of Crap-List: Zombies, Barbara

 

You could argue that some people in the C-List deserve to be on B and vice versa, but not everybody is equal in their respective tier. Olivia and Nicholas are strong C-Listers while Gregory is a weak B-Lister

 

Very accurate. Rosita I think belongs more in B (longevity) but recently and for a long time she's been heavily benched. So C is the best fit for this moment in time, I do see Euge creeping up to A team and he may already be there. Plus with his infinite ammo hack I see him rocking VIP status for a long time.

 

Sophia is useless/uninteresting and case could be made for C list.

 

To the "need more death" crowd, we did get Glenn and Abraham really early in the Saviors war. Frontloaded perhaps, 2 very significant characters. We lost Denise/Holly and now we have 2 more gunked victims also C list. It's been a pretty horrific end of Eden, from Alexandria's perspective, but I hear what death crowd is saying ASZ and C list don't have the same impact as a Glenn etc. still I'd say its been very bloody of a war and you do need to conserve the core cast.


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#142
Jimmy Monk

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Why are so many people wanting Rick to die? He is the best and most interesting character and saved the group multiple times. 


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#143
TomTom

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You and me both Jimmy... You and me both... 


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#144
omegaman

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I am kinda pissed that Kirkman had taken this idea of contaminated weapons from the comic Crossed.

 

If anyone has ever read that comic the same dam thing happens when people infect the weapons with contaminated blood.

 

People have been contaminating weapons across history so it's not an original concept to Crossed. In viet nam there was punji stakes that were rubbed with monkey poop so it's not unheard of.


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#145
DaneBramage

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yup


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#146
Clidna

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I'm just at a point where the war needs to end. It's been dragging on for far too long. 

 

Also, WTF, Dwight? Are you waiting for a special time to bump the dude off? Christ.


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