[DHeav60]

I don't agree that everything is lazy or clumsy. For the most part, I like the direction they are taking this season. I'm just hoping that this will be my least favorite episode of the season.

This season has been better than the previous 2 (which were utter garbage) but It still falls victim to a lot of the same issues. The biggest problem all around is character development. The characters don't seem natural or believable; their dialogue is next to ridiculous most of the time; and just when a tiny fraction of effort is spent to develop a character - that character is promptly executed by the showrunners.

The "virus" story arc in the current season is the epitome of laziness - much of the argument for that has been made by myself (and many others) is in this thread.

[remmdog]

Well didn't get to watch the show until last night. Was really anxious to see how shitty the episode was going to be based on most of these comments... which yes I read before viewing. After watching... was a meh feeling. Not the best not the worst, voted fair with criticism. I see what they are doing and they are sticking with their themes this season of redemption and gray morality in this new world. They brought TG back from the brink to allow him that comparison to leaders in the show. The show seems to want us to really find parallels to characters and compare and contrast how each of us would see ourselves in this world. Hersh as the moral center, Rick as the try to do whats best for everyone with some morality, Carol indifference to all those outside of her "family", TG extreme measures to maintain power control for his group, Tyreese with a hands off follower approach. My damn enter key is not working on this site... not sure why so run on paragraph here we go. One second mention, I truly believe when you watch TWD commercial free is the only way to go. Its a type of show that if you leave for 2 minutes that feeling of whatever that segment was trying to relay is lost between commercials. Watching on Netflix or DVR makes every episode about 100000x better, it happens with a few shows out there.

[Deadpelican]

I haven't posted in here yet (I have a bad habit of lurking) but as I was reading I was a little amazed most didn't really catch the significance of the chess scene. That conversation displays exactly where the Governor's mindset is. He hasn't forgotten the Prison, or his war. He's looking for more pawns, rethinking his strategy now that he's regrouped at that apartment. All his redemption is completely self serving - for both his war, and his desire for a "new Penny". Everything he did was to make Megan happy, getting them to leave (and thus make himself look reluctant by not telling them the world is way more dangerous and they had a good thing there) was for new pawns.

Yes, exactly. It's a very, very, unusual episode compared to what we've seen so far though, that's for sure. I can understand why people may have missed it at first. I missed it at first because I wasn't looking for it, quite frankly. It's not what we've come to expect from the Walking Dead.

From a safety standpoint, there's no reason to leave where they are now, and the governor knows it. But he doesn't really care about their well-being. They're just cannon fodder to him, for the most part. The little girl may be an exception but that's about it.

Spoiler

In the comic, it's Lilly who kills the governor and I think it will be the same on the show. I think she will realize that she's being used and their lives placed in danger for no good reason other than the governor's need to get even. She's just one of the governor's pawns in the "chess game" with Rick, and she'll kill him when she figures it out.

[nazacuckoo]

I rated it "fair", not what I expected at all. It was an ok episode but it doesn't make me care about the Governor anymore than I did last season.

Scratch that. Now that I think about it this episode was pretty bad. Season 4 was going strong for it's own story, but this episode just let the moral for the rest of the Season down.

This episode is probably on par with some of the worst episodes of Season 3, such as Arrow on the Doorpost and Home.

Anyways 3/10. Another Governor-centric episode next week? I'll probably skip it and just wait for the mid-season finale. I'd rather know how Glenn and Sasha are recovering from the sickness, I'd rather know Tyreese and Daryl's reaction to what Carol did, and her banishment. But instead we have to have this again next week?

Probably best to NOT do that. You never know if the ending of the episode will reveal some great cliffhanger, or if only half the episode is a flashback. Just because the episode focuses on the governor doesn't mean it will be bad.

[Chinghis]

Since I don't watch the promos or look at filming credits, here's a question that just occurred to me: What if Lily and Tara got fragged in the machine-gun fire we heard while the governor was dancing with walkers in the pit? Just a thought - I could easily see them getting killed if all the shooters were doing was trying to kill the walkers chasing TG and Penny 2.0. Not like those two were moving fast or anything, could easily have been mistaken for walkers.

[SPRATT]

I think David Morrissey is a fine actor, but I can not stand the TV version of the Govenor. That being said, I thought this episode was very well done and entertaining, but it felt very disconnected from the rest of Season 4.

Leading up to Live Bait the previous episodes were fairly fast paced and focused on a lot of different events and characters. Then with Live Bait we are presented with a totally different pacing. I don't mind the slow pace, but when juxtaposed with the rest of Season 4 it felt a little off.

The second reason this episode did not sit right with me is because of when these events take place! I know they are trying to add layers to the Govenor, they have been trying to do that since Season 3, but I just can't buy into his actions during this episode. Everything that happens in Live Bait is something that should have happened BEFORE he became the Govenor.

I would have accepted it if Martinez and Shumpert were still with him when he stumbled into the apartment complex because like any good lackey they would have gone along with the lie he starts spinning to this family. However, they did not follow the Govenor and they ditched him. But wait, Martinez is back and he found the Govenor. I'm sorry I just can't buy the fact that Martinez is going to team up with the Govenor again. It just doesn't seem logical for Martinez to allow the Govenor back into the fold.

[Deadpelican]

The second reason this episode did not sit right with me is because of when these events take place! I know they are trying to add layers to the Govenor, they have been trying to do that since Season 3, but I just can't buy into his actions during this episode. Everything that happens in Live Bait is something that should have happened BEFORE he became the Govenor.

He's still the same evil, twisted governor in this episode. Think about the scene with the chess board. "You can lose soldiers and still win the game." It's pretty obvious that he's talking about his war with the prison.

Was it even necessary to leave behind their current living arrangement? The place seemed pretty secure and they'd been surviving there for a while.

No, there's no reason to leave, except for the governor's vendetta against the prison.

Basically, he is putting these peoples' lives in danger because he has a personal score to settle and he plans to drag them into it too.

[SPRATT]

He's still the same evil, twisted governor in this episode. Think about the scene with the chess board. "You can lose soldiers and still win the game." It's pretty obvious that he's talking about his war with the prison.

Was it even necessary to leave behind their current living arrangement? The place seemed pretty secure and they'd been surviving there for a while.

No, there's no reason to leave, except for the governor's vendetta against the prison.

Basically, he is putting these peoples' lives in danger because he has a personal score to settle and he plans to drag them into it too.

Yeah, I understood the chess scene and I know why he left, but I don't buy the way he is acting at all. He did the same thing last season with the citizens of Woodbury. He used and maniulpated them into attacking the prison with him. We have already seen him be nice, be sneaky, be whatever. His character has been very inconsistent. I don't think his character is developing forward, but rather in a circle.

[thelastpaul]

Yeah, I understood the chess scene and I know why he left, but I don't buy the way he is acting at all. He did the same thing last season with the citizens of Woodbury. He used and maniulpated them into attacking the prison with him. We have already seen him be nice, be sneaky, be whatever. His character has been very inconsistent. I don't think his character is developing forward, but rather in a circle.

Agreed. I feel like we're going back over shit that we don't need to.

[JesusMonroe]

I dunno, I watched it a second time, and while it's still not my favorite, I have a less dim view of it now.

The chess scene between the governor and the little girl is the key secene that shows what the episode is really all about.

"You can lose pawns and still win the game," says the governor.

"This is the king. He's the one you want to capture."

He's still thinking about team prison and is still at war with them.

It made me see this episode differently. It's not about the governor's redemption and he's still evil as ever because people are just pawns to him, including the family that he is living with currently. The prospect of a safe refuge (the prison) is something he can use to manipulate Lilly and whoever else he runs into like pawns on a chess board. The war between Woodbury and team prison is still going on even now, at least in he governor's mind. Every move he's making seems to be part of his end game, which is killing Rick and the prison group. Rather than a standalone episode about the governor, I see it as part of "the chess game" between Rick and the governor.

On one hand it looks as though they were trying to add layers to the Governor.

However. his redeeming qualities may not be real or sincere, but just tools to manipulate people in order to carry out his endgame.

I thought the symbolism in the chess scene was very obvious (not trying to sound all high and mighty or condescending)

I dunno. 100% of time when people in a drama explain the rules of a chess game, it's always a metaphor for what's going on at the moment or what will happen soon

[DHeav60]

I thought the symbolism in the chess scene was very obvious (not trying to sound all high and mighty or condescending)


I dunno. 100% of time when people in a drama explain the rules of a chess game, it's always a metaphor for what's going on at the moment or what will happen soon

Agreed. Not only is the symbolism completely telegraphed - this exact idea has been done SOOO many times. Better shows have done it much more subtly. For example:



Or even:

[JesusMonroe]

Agreed. Not only is the symbolism completely telegraphed - this exact idea has been done SOOO many times. Better shows have done it much more subtly. For example:

That's still one of my favorite scenes from the Wire. Can't find a clip of it, but Monk had one as well (the killer was a chess Grandmaster who saw Monk trying to catch him as a game). Also, there was brief shot of a chessboard in Breaking Bad's "Ozymandias" that showed the WHITE king not being in checkmate, but would be in checkmate if they moved one spot in any direction

Here's one from Lost (not chess but backgammon)


Pretty much anytime anyone talks about chess in a show it's a, "LISTEN UP! THIS IS SYMBOLISM!" kind of thing

[doc dynamo]

I don't think Gimple intends for us to think it's the same Guv as last year. For most of the episode, he's not being manipulative, he's mostly just checked out from life and slowly coming back.

The big theme of this year is "You don't get come back from the things you do". I think the Guv, and Carol also, are going to be the central examples of that theme. So I think what they're going for is the Guv is not intrinsically evil, and will try to be a better man than was last season and fail, and get drawn into being the same nasty old Guv.

I hope they handle this well and it doesn't come across as hamfisted or by the numbers, but I have my doubts.

[KittenMittons]

I said I disagreed with you, not that you were wrong. It's all subjective what one finds entertaining. There is no right or wrong.

Just wondering: Why did you like the episode?

[StrollingDead]

They didn't have to go this route with the governor. They should have left the serious character development to team prison, while giving an abbreviated story to the governor. Could have been told in first 20 minutes of episode six. Governor runs into a nasty group of road bandits who spare his life when he tells them about the prison. The goons show the governor their giant weapons cache, governor says "we can take the prison easy with this stuff." Then we cut back to team prison, and don't see governor again until him and his heavily armed goons show up on Rick's doorstep. Not exactly like that, but something along those lines.

That's actuallywhat I was expecting- would've been incredibly boring

[kombat]

Just wondering: Why did you like the episode?

Unlike most of the posters here, I was actually curious to see what the Guv's been up to since the end of S3. I was optimistic that Gimple could salvage the character after Mazzara murdered it. I think last episode was a good start. Was it perfect? No, but I can wait until the arc is played out before making judgement. I do my share of complaining here, I guess I'm just more willing to let those things slide and let the show entertain me in spite of the show's flaws.

[Deadpelican]

I thought the symbolism in the chess scene was very obvious

Well, it was if you were paying attention (I wasn't). Maybe I left the room for a drink, or possibly dozed off the first time watching it (like I said, found it kinda boring).

Again, I'm not saying that this makes it a great episode. It just gives it a little more significance and upgrades my initial assessment from "poor" to "fair."

[Howard Roark]

Well, it was if you were paying attention (I wasn't).

Good to know. That admission really lends weight and gravitas to the 4-day tantrum you threw over this episode. I'm one of the harshest critics of this show on here I think, but I believe that if one is to seriously try to critique any kind of work, a minimum pre-requisite for being taken seriously by your peers is to pay attention to what you are supposedly critiquing.

[Gerinako]

Sorry if this has been mentioned. On mY phone and just watched the latest episode.

Has anything been said/suggested as to why he seemed so reluctant to kill at the nursing home?

[Chinghis]

Yeah, that was kind of odd. At first, I wondered if it was just a matter of not making more noise to attract them, or only having a revolver with 6 bullets or whatever ... But, yeah, his behavior in there was weird.

[Deadpelican]

I believe that if one is to seriously try to critique any kind of work, a minimum pre-requisite for being taken seriously by your peers

I don't care if you or anyone else takes me seriously or not.

[SteadyEddie]

They didn't have to go this route with the governor. They should have left the serious character development to team prison, while giving an abbreviated story to the governor. Could have been told in first 20 minutes of episode six. Governor runs into a nasty group of road bandits who spare his life when he tells them about the prison. The goons show the governor their giant weapons cache, governor says "we can take the prison easy with this stuff." Then we cut back to team prison, and don't see governor again until him and his heavily armed goons show up on Rick's doorstep. Not exactly like that, but something along those lines.

And that's why I'm glad you're not writing the show. Sounds like something out of a comic book. Not a television show...

[Deadpelican]

And that's why I'm glad you're not writing the show. Sounds like something out of a comic book. Not a television show...

Yeah would be much better if you were writing the show.

You could have the governor could stumble on some random group of campers who've never fired a gun at anyone in their life and have him say "hey everybody! You don't know jack shit about me and two people have mysteriously disappeared since I arrived! Pick up your guns and let's attack this group of heavily armed, battle-hardened individuals at the prison!"

And of course the group follows right along.

Yeah.



Gotta hand it to ya, ain't nothing comic book about that.

Of course, there's nothing really TV about it either.

It's more like idiocy for its own sake, but alas, that's likely how it's all going to go down.

[jaco]

Probably sacrilege, but I'd have preferred the Governor's storyline and disappearance be fleshed out in webisodes versus taking up two episodes in the middle of the season. It's just odd to take a total divergence from our main characters for two episodes. One, maybe. But two?