Should They Execute The Body Burner?

- - - - - bodies burned infection

#51
DominusPisces

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Uh, regarding Shane, he was lowering his gun and about to hand it to Rick when Rick stabbed him. Rick was talking Shane out of the violence, but it was a lure to get Shane's guard down. Rick committed murder in that case, not out of self-defense.

No he doesn't watch the scene... The WHOLE time Shane keeps his gun trained on Rick. Shane goes to take Rick's gun, and the second his eyes flick down to confirm he has it Rick stabs him. Self defense.

at 3:30 mark Shane has his gun aimed at Rick and is reaching to disarm him


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#52
71Fish

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Karen and David were in ajoining cells. It's doubtful that Carol could kill one of them while the other watched, then kill that person. They weren't that sick when they were quarantined. Neither was so sick (near death) that they couldn't fight off Carol, or at least put some serious, visible damage to Carol. She didn't have a (visible) scratch on her. This is why IMO, they turned before Carol took them out.

That said, she shouldn't have taken it upon herself to burn them.
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#53
Walker_Bait

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I took it that she confessed to killing Karen and David. Not walker versions of them and not just burning their bodies. If it turns out they had already became walkers then I can't imagine why she would be so vague about such a vital distinction when confessing to Rick.

Although I do think it was her reason for doing so, it really wasn't reasonable for Carol to assume killing Karen and David would have stopped the disease.

Was she kept out of the loop about how pigs and walkers were likewise infected (established in 401 and discussed in 402) and so the disease was likely spreading beyond just human to human contact?

Maybe she was isolated from these facts such that she did what made sense to her even though it wouldn't make sense to those aware that the disease existed beyond Karen and David.
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#54
Serenity@sea

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Karen and David were in ajoining cells. It's doubtful that Carol could kill one of them while the other watched, then kill that person. They weren't that sick when they were quarantined. Neither was so sick (near death) that they couldn't fight off Carol, or at least put some serious, visible damage to Carol. She didn't have a (visible) scratch on her. This is why IMO, they turned before Carol took them out.

That said, she shouldn't have taken it upon herself to burn them.


I really think that gracie lou's explanation (from the review thread) makes the most sense to me.

I imagine they were probably asleep, and we already know they were very sick and probably weak. She probably went through their eye, or their temple. Maybe she even slit their throats first. Regardless, I'm confident that she didn't attempt to go through their skulls.


All we knew at that time was how fast acting the infection was on Patrick. He went from complaining about not feeling well, to burning up with a fever to hemorrhaging blood, thus turning into a walker, in just a few hours.
The amount of blood (blood trails) from the cells to where their burned bodies lay, suggests that she did cut their throats, most likely while they were sleeping or in a feverish state.
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#55
Ananse

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Eh, execution or exile both sound kinda drastic to me. I can definitely see her losing the trust of her core peer group, and I think that would be punishment enough for her.
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#56
Jayne23

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I cannot see this group doing this at all to carol.
I think she is not long for the show anyways.
Hell they stuck her in a dark room for a couple episodes and no one cared
most everyone was more upset about losing t dog.
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#57
Serenity@sea

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I cannot see this group doing this at all to carol.
I think she is not long for the show anyways.
Hell they stuck her in a dark room for a couple episodes and no one cared
most everyone was more upset about losing t dog.


I strongly disagree that no one cared. They were all in shock over the attack on the prison and losing Lori and T-Dog and presumably Carol, at the time.
All you have to do is watch the scene with Rick and Carol in the cell, the raw emotion was almost palpable once he realized that she was still alive.
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#58
Blasko_Z

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I don't agree that no one cared, at all. They were all in shock over the attack on the prison and losing Lori and T-Dog and presumably Carol, at the time.
All you have to do is watch the scene with Rick and Carol in the cell, the raw emotion was almost palpable once he realized that she was still alive.


I agree. That was one of the most touching moments from season 3.
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#59
Lioness

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I agree. That was one of the most touching moments from season 3.


Agreed. And this was Carol's turning point. T-Dog sacrificed himself for her and after that it is as though she said, "no more will I be a liability".
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#60
DominusPisces

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Agreed. And this was Carol's turning point. T-Dog sacrificed himself for her and after that it is as though she said, "no more will I be a liability".

Willingness to kill does not equal strength. Otherwise TG is the morally strongest character we've seen. Her desire to not be a liability has made her a just as dangerous liability. Before Carol's inability to act may have gotten you killed due to he paralysis in a crisis.. Now her willingness to sacrifice a 'liability' may get you killed. Example: You refuse to let her teach your kid how to use a knife. You end up on a supply run with her. You're both trying to run out the building. She beats you to the door. Rather than wait even though she had the time she simply shuts the door and lets the walkers get you. The camera sees her walk off feeling guilty but knowing it had to be done to keep your kid safe while your screams fade to commercial.
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#61
Lioness

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Willingness to kill does not equal strength. Otherwise TG is the morally strongest character we've seen. Her desire to not be a liability has made her a just as dangerous liability. Before Carol's inability to act may have gotten you killed due to he paralysis in a crisis.. Now her willingness to sacrifice a 'liability' may get you killed. Example: You refuse to let her teach your kid how to use a knife. You end up on a supply run with her. You're both trying to run out the building. She beats you to the door. Rather than wait even though she had the time she simply shuts the door and lets the walkers get you. The camera sees her walk off feeling guilty but knowing it had to be done to keep your kid safe while your screams fade to commercial.


I don't see your description as being an accurate depiction of Carol. But we can agree to disagree.
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Putting out fire with gasoline.

#62
mADAM Scorpious

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1) There's a world of difference between killing someone who poses a threat to you due to threat of violence (Shane, Tomas, Tony, Dave) vs killing people whose only crime was to drink from the wrong barrel or to be around the wrong person who sneezed who are also locked away from anyone without a chance of getting anyone else exposed. If either of them died from the Da Bug they would have killed each other and no one else.
2) Carol is on the council. which means she agreed to joint consensus. Something this big was supposed to be taken up in a group. Not say.. 'Fuck them' and do what ever the hell she wanted. Actions like this are WHY they have a council.
3) Yes our world and society may be gone. BUT doesn't the little city at the prison have a right to determine which laws and morals they keep? If the council, (Whom Carol pledged to abide by, by agreeing to be ON in the first place) told her no, even if it was 'wrong' Isn't that the society's right? You can always leave if you don't agree.
4) Had she spoken about this with others she might have learned, from the Doc or Hershel that killing them wouldn't do any good, that there's a period before symptoms that people are contagious and the damage has already been done. That some people might be carriers without showing symptoms at all (Wouldn't it be ironic if we learn that Carol is a Typhoid Mary)
5) If it's okay to kill others who might be a threat via liability (Unlike Shane, Tomas, etc.) Then would Carol have a right to say kill Carl if she thought him telling his dad would put the children's lives in danger from the knife class being canceled? Would it be okay to kill Doc S. if he stumbled in on her knifing Karen and Red Shirt?
6) What if Daryl or one of the kids were put in quarantine first? Would you all be okay with her ganking your favorite Redneck while he's there too weak to defend himself? If she wouldn't kill Daryl, then she's just like Shane. sacrificing anyone but her chosen few, and 'good of the group' goes out the window.

She sure as heck doesn't deserve to be on the council. That should be the first to go, Maybe execution is to much for her, but several of them were okay with executing Randal (who would have killed them had he been a good shot) because his deliberate actions indicated danger. If not execution, then exile. Someone who demonstrates they can so easily kill an innocent person shouldn't be on the same side of the fence with people.

1) being good people or innocent doesn't make them any less of a threat to the entire safety of the community. Karen and David didn't simply pose threats only to themselves, every sick person poses a threat for as long as they are contagious. without medical treatment they would've died anyhow, and to treat them means exposing some of the community's greatest assets. 2) I agree completely with this point and I believe Carol should be kicked off the Council for going rogue. 3) Democracy only matters insofar as you have a society to govern, for example if the majority of the planet wanted to nuke Earth and only the minority wanted to save it, than the majority should be overridden as the basis of their power is contingent on numbers and they are choosing to eliminate their power. She obviously felt that the morality of the group would cost more lives so she did what she knew was wrong because she thought it was necessary to save everyone. 4) very true and it's quite unfortunate that she murdered them in vain. 5) This is kind of a bad example. the weapons training is for the children's protection, if the children are in the position to use their weapons than it means the group has already been compromised, so untrained children aren't really a liability to the group as a whole, also killing the best armed child to arm other children is just counterproductive, whereas there is some logic towards eliminating a threat before it becomes an issue. Carol doesn't think what she did was wrong, if Dr S caught her, she would've asked him for help in euthanizing David and Karen, and if he refused he would've explained about the incubation period and no one would've died. if she was trying to cover up what she did or willing to kill someone in order to protect her reputation, she wouldn't've admitted it to rick so easily. 6) her scene with Lizzie going into quarantine illustrates she was willing to make the tough call even when it comes to people she cares about, if it had been Shane and a sick Lori in that position Shane would've hidden Lori's illness and allowed her to stay with him. As for Randall, they had no actual proof that he himself was dangerous(no one knows exactly who was shooting at Rick and company and those guys did not fire on Glenn Hershel & Rick until after rick admitted to killing Dave & Tony, it was only via Daryl's interrogation that we actually realized the nature of that group and Randall later told Rick that he was only with them because he had no one else), which is why the majority of people were willing to let him go at first, even knowing that his group was comprised of rapists, murderers and thieves, but the fact that he knew the Greene family was what made Rick and everyone but Dale decide to kill him (he may or may not have been a threat but his knowledge put everyone at the farm at risk). Technically, as long as they can't treat the virus, the sick are more of a threat than Randall was, and allowing the sick to expose themselves to the healthy is at par with letting someone get bitten and not posting a braining committee at their bedside. They were innocent but they were also a threat, and that's not as black and white as you're portraying it to be. I don't think it was an easy decision for her, obviously if it was she wouldn't have been so guilt ridden about it (getting upset when ty asked her to check in on Sasha, getting upset when thinking about Lizzie being sick, freaking out and knocking over the water then risking her life to get more water). She killed them for altruistic reasons, that's a lot different than killing an innocent person for fun, tonnes of people euthanize their sick pets and most people can see the difference between animal torture and euthanasia and murdering an asset to the team because he was a threat to a single member of the team like in the case of Rick & Shane. Most of the core group has murdered someone (how many innocent woodburians were murdered to rescue Daryl?) lines get blurred and everyone ends up a killer in one of 3 ways, you kill to protect what you love, you kill to get what you want, or you die, come back and kill to eat. They would be hypocritical to kill or execute Carol, but she should definitely be removed from council and from her teaching position, the guilt of her mistake will be punishment enough.
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#63
Matt G

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BUT... Rick is still feel guilty over Sophia! Rick owes Carol big for leaving Sophia under the embankment. Plus, Carol is a big asset to the group and is dependable. What has Tyreese done? He's still kinda knew, he was hooked up with the Gov, he doesn't like to kill fence walkers, he doesn't like going on runs...

I still see Rick being loyal to Carol.

By the way, I love the new dynamics this storyline adds to the prison. So many relationships could change because of the outcome.


Tyreese has always lended a hand when it was needed. He is very helpful when it comes to pulling his weight because he knows he has to because of the shelter he was given. Also he might have been with the governor last season but everyone knows that the governor is a con artist and makes himself out to be a good guy. Also meeting him after he was just in the prison with Rick wigging out and dealing with his demons.
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#64
xaviersaint

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I hope this isn't Carol's exit story either. For as much as I complained about her in the last three seasons I like where she is at now. It's nice and refreshing. It'd be a shame to lose that.

Which of course means they're going to kill her off because that's my luck. Wait! I take it back! Carol's horrible! How dare they give her a spine! Geez...LOL!
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Angel: I stopped Acathla. That saved the world.

Spike: Buffy ran you through with a sword.

Angel: Yeah, but I made her do it. Signaled her with my eyes.

Spike: She killed you. I helped her. That one counts as mine.

#65
DominusPisces

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I hope this isn't Carol's exit story either. For as much as I complained about her in the last three seasons I like where she is at now. It's nice and refreshing. It'd be a shame to lose that.

Which of course means they're going to kill her off because that's my luck. Wait! I take it back! Carol's horrible! How dare they give her a spine! Geez...LOL!

You have to admit this is a hard thing to just sweep under the rug and come back from. A morally wrong decision that didn't even result in gain. It's a hard pill to swallow. I see her , after the flack and the accusations and rage against her
Spoiler
The bitter irony would be if it was 'nick'
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#66
gracie lou

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Nick is dead.
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#67
DominusPisces

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^ Hence was and not is.
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#68
gracie lou

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^ Hence was and not is.


???

I thought you were using 'was' to imagine that happening, now I'm just confused. Never mind.
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#69
xaviersaint

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???

I thought you were using 'was' to imagine that happening, now I'm just confused. Never mind.


You would not be the only one GL.


Side note, there's a comic spoiler running around a lot in threads about Carol. At this point in the game, I'd perfectly okay if that didn't happen, it almost would be ... Cliche isn't quite the right word but... Uncreative in my opinion. But honestly I assume they're giving that to another character.
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Angel: I stopped Acathla. That saved the world.

Spike: Buffy ran you through with a sword.

Angel: Yeah, but I made her do it. Signaled her with my eyes.

Spike: She killed you. I helped her. That one counts as mine.

#70
DominusPisces

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Sorry I meant the irony if it 'was' nick... as in it would have been funny if he munched Carol had he not been re-deaded. As opposed to if it IS Nick which would be possible if he was still undead. Sorry sometimes I type the way I think and forget to translate it from Dominus to real English.
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Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord these bites aren't deep.
Should I die before I wake, I pray thee Lord, my skull they break.


#71
gracie lou

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Oh, my! I thought I sort of understood subjunctive verbs before now. :P

I get ya, though.

I really don't want to lose Carol. :(
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#72
DominusPisces

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Oh, my! I thought I sort of understood subjunctive verbs before now. :P

I get ya, though.

I really don't want to lose Carol. :(

Great now I have to look up 'subjunctive' thanks... :P

For losing Carol... she kinda crossed a boundary of no return... Her relationship with everyone is going to change. What do you think happens if this gets out (How can Rick NOT bring it up to one of the council members?) and TG attacks, a plague zombie gets loose or (God Forbid) that Zerg Rush of Zack finds the prison? Karen had more than just Ty there. She had friends, and per Ty, David was liked to. All it takes is an extended foot, closing the door a few seconds early if she's the last one running from walkers, a push down the stairs when no one is around or a quick jerk to turn her into a living bullet shield and a teensy lie that, she wasn't quick or agile enough.

Somehow (For story's sake) this will come out and Carol's life will get VERY complicated.
Hell... maybe Lizzie will be the one to kill her. I mean they made a point for Carol to impart the importance of not hesitating and ham-hand us the fact she has a knife and is unstable. Maybe she thinks that she can't trust Carol wouldn't have killed her if she was the one in ISO, (They did live in D block with their Dad and Karen) and since you can always trust how the walkers will act because they are ALWAYS honest in what they are. Maybe Lizzie 'returns' Carol's knife thinking that since they're people to, Carol will be more trustworthy as a walker. After all.. Carol wouldn't be dead... just different.
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Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord these bites aren't deep.
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#73
Judari

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I don't know if this is Carol's exit story line. I could see them going down that road but then again this is Gimple not Mazzara. So we can't assume she will take a similar Andrea storyline of turning everyone against her only to redeem herself before she gets killed. I was pissed when it happened to Andrea so I will be more than annoyed if it happens to Carol too. Then again, it is Gimple so it would probably be written and executed a lot better than Mazz did with Andrea. Whatever happens to Carol I hope they do her character justice. I did not always like her but she is quickly becoming one of my favs since last season. Plus, McBride is a great actress and has lovely chemistry with a lot of different characters on the show, would be sad to lose that.
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#74
Serenity@sea

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Great now I have to look up 'subjunctive' thanks... :P

For losing Carol... she kinda crossed a boundary of no return... Her relationship with everyone is going to change. What do you think happens if this gets out (How can Rick NOT bring it up to one of the council members?) and TG attacks, a plague zombie gets loose or (God Forbid) that Zerg Rush of Zack finds the prison? Karen had more than just Ty there. She had friends, and per Ty, David was liked to. All it takes is an extended foot, closing the door a few seconds early if she's the last one running from walkers, a push down the stairs when no one is around or a quick jerk to turn her into a living bullet shield and a teensy lie that, she wasn't quick or agile enough.

Somehow (For story's sake) this will come out and Carol's life will get VERY complicated.
Hell... maybe Lizzie will be the one to kill her. I mean they made a point for Carol to impart the importance of not hesitating and ham-hand us the fact she has a knife and is unstable. Maybe she thinks that she can't trust Carol wouldn't have killed her if she was the one in ISO, (They did live in D block with their Dad and Karen) and since you can always trust how the walkers will act because they are ALWAYS honest in what they are. Maybe Lizzie 'returns' Carol's knife thinking that since they're people to, Carol will be more trustworthy as a walker. After all.. Carol wouldn't be dead... just different.


I feel like you are interpreting her actions as malicious. They weren't. She took a drastic, horrific step to try to contain the infection. I am not condoning her actions, I'm trying to wrap my head around her thought process. At the time, she probably thought the infection was 100% deadly. She mistakenly thought that if she killed them and burned their bodies, the infection would be contained and that would be the end of it.
The actions you are describing (pushing someone down the steps, human shield) are much more selfish and would be for self preservation. I do believe that Carol had the best interest of the group at heart. She wrongly thought she had to sacrifice them for the good of the group.

I think it will be much more interesting to keep Carol around, so we can watch the fallout and what this does to the group dynamic.
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#75
jayde

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I don't think they should execute her but she's now a danger to the group. She likely thought that by killing Karen and David that she was preventing the further spread of the illness. Her throwing over the water barrel and then risking her life to stupidly clear the mud out in a field of walkers confirms that her actions weren't purposefully malicious, just misguided.

I also don't see how the both of them could have died and turned and yet Carol came out without a scratch on her. Although they weren't too far along in terms of how ill they were, they were probably asleep or resting as the fever would have them fatigued. She could have easily stabbed them through the temple/ear without the other noticing depending on how weak/exhausted they had become.

Wasn't Carol the one that mentioned the death row cells during the council meeting? I think that she'd planned to do this as soon as they realized what was going on. I'm not in the camp that thinks this is her exit story though...It could be because I could see her going crazy like the comic and going down a similar path. But I'd rather see her struggle to maintain the boundary between good and dark and evolve into a stronger character with more noble convictions...but in the ZA maybe that's not possible.

As for Rick...I don't see him telling anyone yet. He has to know that people will want the hide of Karen and David's killer and that won't change just because he says it's Carol. Even if he keeps it to himself, people will probably start to notice when he doesn't seem to trust her much anymore...especially with his kids around. Maybe this is what forces him to step back into the leadership role again.

I wonder what Daryl's reaction would be like if/when he finds out? Him and Carol have gotten closer and he's already expressed that he wants the killer dead for this.
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